Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 05:36:11PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> CASE: FRACTAL DESIGN VS SILVERSTONE
> 
> The case originally specified: Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) has a door 
> that covers the entire front of the case. There is exposure to damage to an 
> optical drive, if the optical drive ejects a disc while the front door of the 
> case is in the way.
> 
> The SilverStone TJ04-E was suggested as an alternative case. However, this 
> venerable popular model is no longer available. The successor SilverStone 
> model: SST-TJ04B-E does not seem to be nearly as well made as the original 
> TJ04-E. Numerous reviews on Anazon.com mention flimsy material and 
> construction. There are other SilverStone case models of interest, but none 
> as compelling in features as the Fractal Design Define R5.

The TJ04B-E is in fact the TJ04-E in black.  Many cases from silverstone
also come in silver, although I don't think this one ever did.
Amazon lists it as:
Silverstone Temjin TJ04-EW (SST-TJ04B-Evolution)

I have found nothing flimsy about it in my uses.

> The decision is to use a Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) case with the front 
> foor, as originally specified, and be very careful always to keep the front 
> door of this case wide open, so long as there is a disc in the optical drive. 
> (Good luck, Steve :)

You can send the eject command whether there is a disc in it or not.

Just don't do that.  Burning software should only do so if there is a
disc in the drive as far as I can recall.  At least I can't think of a
case where it would do so.

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 04:11:53PM -0400, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> Verify phase.
> You make me laugh.
> HAHAHA.

It's hard to do afterwards, since the data on the disk could have changed
after you copied it unless of course you have enough space to stage the
entire backup before writing it to tape.

Good tape drive designs verify while writing (like LTO and such).

> I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a verify
> phase.
> Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data its
> just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of like disk
> drives most times.
> 
> Anyway.
> When you do the verify you need to actually verify the data and not just the
> block checksums.
> Once upon a time a company I worked for had a bug that would write blank
> tapes.
> More correctly tapes full of zero filled blocks.
> They checksumed correctly so the quick check would succeed but not restore.

That's inconvinient.

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Greetings To GTALUG Members,

Having gratefully received an avalanche of helpful postings from GTALUG 
members, and based on that advice, I provide below a summary of the revisions 
to the original specification of components, for the new desktop PC.

Please find attached a PDF summary of the revised PC configuration:
  a.. .
The price may seem high, given that this is not a gamer's PC. There is no video 
graphics support beyond that on the Intel CPU.

This PC is a heavy-duty professional / business PC. The objective of this PC is 
to provide fast performance, with the ability to run cool and cruising (not 
struggling) under constant 24 / 7 duty. Also there is provision for future 
expansion, without overtaxing cooling capacity or power supply.

Please note that the revised specification attached, includes only the Windows 
7 operating system, and makes no mention of the Linux operating system. 
Omission of Linux is intentional, as commercial system builders typically are 
only interested in shipping PCs with Windows. So the plan is to do the Linux 
installation after the PC is received from the builder.

I am now going to request price quotations for the PC as specified, from a 
number of commercial PC builders.

If no satisfactory commercial builder quotation ensues (meaning: acceptable 
price and no component substitutions), then I will likely resort to the 
build-it-yourself option, with kind help from GTALUG. There is a hybrid build 
option: get the motherboard built commercially, and then personally complete 
the build from there.

* * * 
* * *

RAM

Increase the RAM size from 8 GB to 16 GB (2 x 8GB DIMM).

The ASRock Z97 Extreme6 motherboard has 4 DDR-3 slots, providing for  future 
memory expansion to the maximum 32 GB supported by the Intel i5-4460 CPU.

* * * 
* * *

DIALUP MODEMS AND DSL (DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER LINE)

It appears that Linux (and Windows) are keeping up support for: 1. USB  dial up 
modems and 2. PPP network protocol, to enable tethering of GSM  phones to the 
OS, as dial up modems (for e.g. file transfer).

Therefore it is very likely that the same support (for USB dial up  modems and 
PPP) on Linux, should also work on Linux with a real USB dial  up modem (e,g, 
USR5637 56K V.92 USB modem).

Dial up modems today still find uses, in situations where land line  telephone 
service is the only wired Internet connection available: 1. in  some rural 
areas, and 2. with portable computers away from home base,  e.g. in hotel room. 
Also: some point-of-sale payment transaction systems  use dial up modems, for 
improved security.

Terminology: "hard line" = "land line" = POTS (plain old telephone  service) = 
physical twisted pair of copper wires that electrically  connect a subscriber's 
equipment, to the remote telephone exchange and  thereby to the PSTN (public 
switched telephone network).

Terminology: DSL (digital subscriber line) = ADSL (asymmetric digital  
subscriber line), the "asymmetric" means that upstream communications  (from 
local to remote) and downstream communications (from remote to  local) use 
different frequency ranges (Up: 26.075 .. 137.825 kHz, Down:  138 .. 1104 kHz).

DSL service can share the same hard line with analog devices (e.g.  telephone, 
dial up modem, fax machine) because DSL uses much higher  modulation 
frequencies (26.075 .. 1104 kHz) than do conventional (human  voice band) 
analog devices (0 .. 4 kHz).

However, in order for DSL and analog devices to share the same wire pair  hard 
line without interference, the DSL modem must be electrically  isolated from 
the analog devices (and vice-versa), to prevent mutual  interference  caused by 
secondary effects of signals generated by the  various devices on the line.

The necessary isolation between the DSL modem and the analog devices on  the 
same wire pair line, is achieved by adding a DSL filter between each  analog 
device (e.g. telephone, dial up modem) and the line.

For convenience, a variation on the DSL filter, called a DSL filter /  
splitter, provides two jacks on the same filter device, one (unfiltered)  jack 
for connecting the DSL modem and one (filtered) jack for connecting  an analog 
device (e.g. telphone, dial up modem).

Adding decision complexity to a DSL service acquisition, are  availability of 
more modern DSL standards that offer significantly  higher speeds: ADSL2, VDSL 
and VDSL2.

Given that, with DSL service installed on the hard line, it will still  be 
feasible to continue to use on the same hard line, the dial up modem  on the 
existing Windows XP PC, why not go straight to using DSL for the  new Linux PC, 
and skip entirely any use of a dial up modem (e.g. USR5637  56K V.92 USB modem) 
on the new PC?

Here are my reasons for first using a dial up modem on the new Linux PC:
  a.. #1 Postpone the non-trivial task of: specifying and provisioning DSL 
service (service type decision, modem selection, service  implementation). DSL 
will be a too large distraction from the main  

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 08/10/2016 04:23 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 08/10/2016 04:11 PM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a
verify phase.
Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data
its just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of
like disk drives most times.

The 9 track tape drives I used to work on had a read after write head,
so errors could be detected during write.


yes.
Till the software writes 0*
The tape full of zeros will verify quite correctly.

Its kind of like dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/mt0 count=19.

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Alvin Starr via talk]

more comments in line.
On 08/10/2016 03:31 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

Hello Alvin,

Please see my comments inline below.


[snip]

On 4mm backups.
There was a customer who used a 4mm backup and backed up every night.

The one thing someone forgot to tell them was to replace the tapes.

After about 4 years the disk failed.

The tapes were transparent.



After the customer's nightly backup process wrote to the tape, was 
there also a separate verify phase, that rewound and read through the 
entire tape, and compared its contents with the HDD data?


Surely a verify phase would have failed with unreadable (transparent) 
tapes. And failure of the verify phase, would have alerted the 
customer to the unreadability problem with the tapes.




Verify phase.
You make me laugh.
HAHAHA.

I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a 
verify phase.
Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data its 
just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of like 
disk drives most times.


Anyway.
When you do the verify you need to actually verify the data and not just 
the block checksums.
Once upon a time a company I worked for had a bug that would write blank 
tapes.

More correctly tapes full of zero filled blocks.
They checksumed correctly so the quick check would succeed but not restore.


Guess how this story ended?



The story ended very badly, no doubt. The cruel "nasty surprise" 
downside, of our beautiful profession ...




They got back up and running and from that point forward the backups 
were done properly.

Nothing like getting burned to teach you.


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Alvin,

Please see my comments inline below.

Steve

apet...@aspetrie.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Alvin Starr via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
To: "James Knott" <james.kn...@rogers.com>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On 08/09/2016 04:15 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for 
backup.
You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way 
the

computer gods intended.  ;-)
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And keep your audio recordings on 1"  reel to reel instrumentation
recorders like we did at Digital Recording.

On 4mm backups.
There was a customer who used a 4mm backup and backed up every night.

The one thing someone forgot to tell them was to replace the tapes.

After about 4 years the disk failed.

The tapes were transparent.



After the customer's nightly backup process wrote to the tape, was there 
also a separate verify phase, that rewound and read through the entire 
tape, and compared its contents with the HDD data?


Surely a verify phase would have failed with unreadable (transparent) 
tapes. And failure of the verify phase, would have alerted the customer 
to the unreadability problem with the tapes.



Guess how this story ended?



The story ended very badly, no doubt. The cruel "nasty surprise" 
downside, of our beautiful profession ...



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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: James Knott via talk 

| On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
| > I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup.
| 
| You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the
| computer gods intended.  ;-)

I did.  Now I cannot read them.  I have a box of them, slowly aging.

I can still read my punch card and papertape backups, but *very* slowly 
(i.e. by eye).

Open question: can I read my 5.35" quad density floppies (7th edition 
filesystem).
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 08/09/2016 04:15 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:

I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup.

You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the
computer gods intended.  ;-)
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And keep your audio recordings on 1"  reel to reel instrumentation 
recorders like we did at Digital Recording.


On 4mm backups.
There was a customer who used a 4mm backup and backed up every night.

The one thing someone forgot to tell them was to replace the tapes.

After about 4 years the disk failed.

The tapes were transparent.

Guess how this story ended?

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[James Knott via talk]

On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
> I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup.

You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the
computer gods intended.  ;-)
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 16-08-09 03:54 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2016-08-09 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:


On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC,
the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the
HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!


I used to use 4mm DAT tapes to backup my machine some years ago. It seemed 
like a good idea at the time. I don't know if any of my tapes ever went bad 
but the drives certainly did. I had 3 drives die on me in different ways (4 
if you count the fact I was able to take parts from two that died in 
different ways to get a working drive).


I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2016-08-09 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> 
> On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC,
> the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the
> HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!

Better to spend $90 on something like a WD 1TB My Passport Portable
External Hard Drive

than faff with tape. DAT-style drives and media just seem to
self-destruct after a while. So many of my friends in the music industry
have found that their cherished "DAT masters" are unreadable.

cheers,
 Stewart

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Alvin,

Thanks for your response.

Please see my comments inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Alvin Starr" <al...@netvel.net>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




Tape drives are hard to come by these days.
Have you thought about a USB drive for backup?


I do plan to use portable USB drives for backup on the new Linux PC.

I did consider getting the portable USB drives now, and using them for 
backup on the existing Windows XP PC. However, I prefer not to mess 
around with changing the backup method on the Windows XP PC, since I 
plan to stop using it as soon as the new Linux PC is operational.


There are plenty of inexpensive used DDS-3 tape drives available e.g. on 
eBay, and from other sources.



Or a NAS box.
There are several inexpensive 1 and 2 drive NAS enclosures that you 
can

get to put on your local network.


As with the portable USB drive idea, I prefer not to complicate the 
Windows XP setup, by attaching new devices.





It may be worth looking into getting the drive fixed.
I believe that Memofix(http://www.memofix.com/) will repair tape 
drives.


Thanks for the tip !! I see they are a Canadian firm, so no 
border-crossing complications.


I will investigate further.





On 08/09/2016 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

Greetings To GTALUG Members,

A setback has occurred in my project to acquire a new Linux PC.

On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux 
PC,

the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the
HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!

Since it could still take a few months for me to complete the
acquisition of and conversion to the new Linux PC, I am not going to
risk operating the Windows XP PC without regular HDD backup for so 
long.


So, I need to source a replacement tape drive for the Windows XP PC,
before I can continue with acquisition of the new Linux PC.

A soon as I have a replacement tape drive operating on the Windows XP
PC, I will resume the Linux PC acquisition project, and complete the
revisions to
the specification of components, per advice from GTALUG members.

Regards,

Steve

* * *

Steve Petrie, P.Eng.

ITS-ETO Consortium
Oakville, Ontario, Canada
(905) 847-3253
apet...@aspetrie.net

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Alvin Starr via talk]

Tape drives are hard to come by these days.
Have you thought about a USB drive for backup?
Or a NAS box.
There are several inexpensive 1 and 2 drive NAS enclosures that you can 
get to put on your local network.
Having network storage is always handy for things like running as a 
media server.



It may be worth looking into getting the drive fixed.
I believe that Memofix(http://www.memofix.com/) will repair tape drives.



On 08/09/2016 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

Greetings To GTALUG Members,

A setback has occurred in my project to acquire a new Linux PC.

On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC,
the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the
HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!

Since it could still take a few months for me to complete the
acquisition of and conversion to the new Linux PC, I am not going to
risk operating the Windows XP PC without regular HDD backup for so long.

So, I need to source a replacement tape drive for the Windows XP PC,
before I can continue with acquisition of the new Linux PC.

A soon as I have a replacement tape drive operating on the Windows XP
PC, I will resume the Linux PC acquisition project, and complete the 
revisions to

the specification of components, per advice from GTALUG members.

Regards,

Steve

* * *

Steve Petrie, P.Eng.

ITS-ETO Consortium
Oakville, Ontario, Canada
(905) 847-3253
apet...@aspetrie.net

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Greetings To GTALUG Members,

A setback has occurred in my project to acquire a new Linux PC.

On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC,
the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the
HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!

Since it could still take a few months for me to complete the
acquisition of and conversion to the new Linux PC, I am not going to
risk operating the Windows XP PC without regular HDD backup for so long.

So, I need to source a replacement tape drive for the Windows XP PC,
before I can continue with acquisition of the new Linux PC.

A soon as I have a replacement tape drive operating on the Windows XP
PC, I will resume the Linux PC acquisition project, and complete the 
revisions to

the specification of components, per advice from GTALUG members.

Regards,

Steve

* * *

Steve Petrie, P.Eng.

ITS-ETO Consortium
Oakville, Ontario, Canada
(905) 847-3253
apet...@aspetrie.net

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Aug 1, 2016 11:05 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
wrote:
>
> Hello Hugh,
>
>

>

>>
>> Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort.  DVI is
>> disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported.  This
>> might affect the choice of monitor.
>>
>
>
> Hmmm -- thanks for the tip.
>
> I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus the
monitor I have chosen:
>

Here's a link to Intel's graphics stack for haswell and broadwell GPU's
under Linux. There is source for DIY etc. from may. Looks like good news
for Fedora frame. buffering.

https://01.org/linuxgraphics/downloads

>
> LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit,
DVI-D, D-Sub,
> contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode,
flicker-safe;
>
>
>

>
>
>
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Russell
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 11:05:26AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus the
> monitor I have chosen:
> 
> LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D,
> D-Sub,
> contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode,
> flicker-safe;

http://www.cablesonsale.ca/index.php/monoprice-6ft-28awg-displayport-to-dvi-cable-white.html

Simple displayport to DVI monitor connection.

Not a big problem.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 03:12:51PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort.  DVI is
> disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported.  This
> might affect the choice of monitor.

Well I like displayport.  Most machines have DP+ which means a passive
cable or adapter will give you DVI (single link) or HDMI or even VGA
if you need it and it takes a lot less space, and if you want something
highres and good, displayport can handle that too.  My laptop has mini
displayport, and I carry a minidisplayport to hdmi cable in my laptop
bag along with an hdmi to dvi dongle.  That covers most things I ever
need to connect to.  I suppose having a mini displayport to normal
displayport cable could be handy but strangely I haven't encountered
any displayport devices to connect to yet other than at home (where I
do have that cable).

Dual link DVI for older large screens that predate displayport are the
only real problem.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 10:54:24AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> Thanks for this !! Looks very promising !!
> 
> Seems that USB support for modems is being kept up-to-date in Linux, as the
> usb modem driver source code is present in linux 3.16 kernel (used by debian
> 8):
> 
>   drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c
>   drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.h
> 
> Also, I see a web page with a Linux patch notice dated 17 November 2014
> "[3.16.y-ckt,stable] Patch "USB: cdc-acm: add quirk for control-line state
> requests" has been added to staging queue".
> 
> Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread, getting
> access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux?
> 
> Using Google, I found lots of documentation on getting USB modems to work on
> Linux (including the PPP stuff for the dial-up Internet link).
> 
> So I will try a USRobotics USR5637 56K V.92 USB modem.

That should work as far as I can tell.

I still think getting dialup working with linux is a waste of time and
money if you plan to go to DSL soon anyhow.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 01:27:55AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't find
> any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux.

Hylafax won't make a modem that doesn't have linux drivers work with
linux.

The USR5638 does not have linux drivers.  It won't work with linux.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk]

On 01/08/16 11:05 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus 
the monitor I have chosen:


LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, 
DVI-D, D-Sub,
contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, 
flicker-safe;


Hi Steve,

Any modern video card will easily drive that monitor. The only thing you 
need to be concerned about is if the video card and the monitor have a 
common interface. HDMI and DisplayPort are the two most common monitor 
interfaces these days.


Given that you said that you are of advanced years, if you are anything 
like the older folks in my life, you may find it difficult to 
comfortably see text on that monitor. One of my elderly relatives ends 
up running Windows at 150% magnification to be able to read things 
comfortably. You may want to go for a larger monitor, like a 27" for 
example, at the same resolution. Retails stores will have 1080p monitors 
of various sizes on display so it should be relatively easy for you to 
see the differences for yourself.


Also, you asked about "hard line". Hard line = POTS line (Plain Old 
Telephony Service) line = land line.


I still do not get why you would not jump straight to DSL with your new 
system and forgo dial-up and the expense and hassles of setting up a 
modem. The USRobotics USB modem you were looking at is over $60. The 
"psychological stress" of the migration from Windows XP to Linux is 
orthogonal to how you get your Internet connection. In any event, using 
a dedicated firewall/router/gateway device will make the transition from 
dial-up to DSL/cable Internet service short work and quite painless. You 
can have such a device running in a matter of minutes once you have your 
DSL (or cable) modem installed and your ISP has activated the 
connection. It will be a matter of connecting an Ethernet cable from 
your Linux (or XP) box to the built-in Ethernet switch in your 
firewall/router/gateway to have Internet access.


I have also read your comments about custom partitioning schemes. On the 
system on which I am typing this, I have a 32GB SSD(*), which I will 
replace with a 120GB SSD shortly, on which I install Linux. I also have 
a 1TB SSD and an 8TB Western Digital Red drive for other filesystems. I 
mount /home on the 1TB SSD and /data on the 8TB drive. When a new 
version of Fedora comes out, even though in-place updates work now, I do 
not bother. It is faster to simply do a fresh install. When I want to 
upgrade to a new version of Fedora, I make a copy of /etc/fstab to my 
home directory, shutdown the machine and unplug all disk drives except 
for the one onto which I plan to install Fedora, power up, and install.


It is not strictly necessary to unplug the other drives but I do it for 
a couple of reasons. First, if I screw up the kickstart file that I 
use(**) and specify that the partitions should be cleared on the wrong 
device, I would have to recover all that data I accidentally deleted, 
thus making what is normally a 20 minute process into a day-long 
process. Second, if there is a bug in the installer and it clears 
partitions on the wrong device, I would be facing the same situation as 
the first case. I recall a distro that did this (I do not recall which 
one it was) about 10 years ago so I have been cautious ever since. A bug 
or a mistake cannot clear partitions on devices that are not connected 
to the bus.


Once the installation has finished, I shutdown the machine. I then 
reconnect the drives that has been disconnected earlier, boot into the 
new Fedora installation, modify the /etc/fstab in the new installation 
to mount /home and /data using their UUID, which is why I had set aside 
the old fstab though I can always get device UUIDs using /sbin/blkid, 
and reboot. On reboot, everything in /home/cilkay will have been 
preserved, which means I do not have to configure all the stuff I had 
previously configured, like Cinnamon applets, virtual desktops, XChat, 
Chrome, Firefox, and Thunderbird extension, Thunderbird configuration 
for my various mail accounts, virtual machines, editor configurations, 
and so on. If I had to configure all that from scratch, I would be 
fiddling around for days.


(*) I intend to purchase a fanless tiny PC that has two Ethernet ports 
on the motherboard to replace the Pentium II 266 Compaq small form 
factor machine with 128M of RAM and 4GB of disk running IPCop, a 
dedicated firewall distro, that I have been running since March 2004 and 
repurpose the 32GB SSD as the drive for the new machine.


(**) I have a tftp and PXE server set up on my network and do kickstart 
installations when I want to upgrade. It makes for quick and repeatable 
installations. The Debian equivalent is a preseed installation, which I 
also do for creating virtual machines. You do not have to do this. You 
could boot from the ISO image and do a manual installation and not have 
to know 

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
<talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
> Hello Dee,
>
> Thanks for your message.
>
> My comments are inline below.
>
> Steve
>
> - Original Message - From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigte...@gmail.com>
> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk"
> <talk@gtalug.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 8:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
>
>
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
>> <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
>> snip
>
>
> 
>
>> I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can tell
>> you
>> that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both
>> secure boot and UEFI.
>>
>
> You are correct -- according to the debian 8 docs, there is (improved) UEFI
> support in debian 8. It is the secure boot that is not supported.
>
>> (My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main
>> system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had
>> been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian (testing)
>> installed previously.
>
>
> (Shudder.)
>
> So, is it a correct presumption that, when you got the system back from
> warranty repair, the new main system disk had been configured with a PC
> seller's "standard" Microsoft Windows installation, setup to secure boot
> only windows, through the windows boot manager?

No - - - but as I have 4 hdd and 1 sdd and 1 optical drive (blue ray for
backups and cdroms and dvds) they 'added' that as that would be normal
practice.
>
> I am hoping that it will be feasible for me to specify to the PC system
> builder, both: 1. HDD partitioning configuration (there's only one HDD), and
> 2. multi-boot setup (ready for a drop-in debian 8 installation). So the
> debian installation I will do myself, requires minimal messing with the boot
> setup.

What I would suggest is that you have win??? installed but ask for it to be
in a 80 GB directory.

I do not have win system running on base metal. I have win7pro running on
a VM that isn't allowed outside access (in an electronic jail as it were!).
>
>> This were not straightforward but I was able to get
>> things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager
>> and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend here!)
>> and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise.
>> What I did I don't remember
>
>
> Too bad you don't remember.
>
> But, do you now have your PC configured with multi-boot, so you can boot on
> bare metal, either: 1. Microsoft Windows or 2. debian Linux?
>
> If you do have such a multi-boot setup operational, may I come back and pick
> your brain on your multi-boot setup? (After I have updated my proposed PC
> hardware configuration per GTALUG advice, and also established revised
> benchmark pricing through PCPartPicker.)

I would be willing to field questions with the provisio that I am no expert
just a persevering kind of idiot!
Multi-boot isn't hard to effect. I just so mistrust M$ that I won't
run a system
on the web.
>
>> just remember that it was quite an odessey and
>> more than somewhat frustrating but I was successful - - - and I'm not
>> at all competent as a programmer nor any kind of 'under the hood' person
>> when it comes to computers. I'm just a tool user when it comes to
>> computers at this point and wishing I could keep it there!)
>>
>
> The "odessey" part I can relate to. I like to refer to those kinds of
> struggles as "character building".
>
> I'm a computer-tool user also, but I do have programming skills, and a
> certain comfort level getting under the hood. However, I would like to
> minimize the dirty hands, by researching ahead and developing an
> understanding of the multi-boot setup (windows + debian).
>
> My preferred scenario has the PC system builder delivering the new PC, with
> Microsoft Windows 7 (OEM) installed to boot onto bare metal, but with a
> pre-agreed HDD partitioning and multi-boot setup, so it's a straightforward
> drop-in installation task, for me to add a debian 8 Linux, that also boots
> onto bare metal. The idea is to avoid wiping the windows installation and
> boot setup, as delivered by the PC system builder, so as to keep the system
> builder committed to my mental health :)

I dealt with a company in western Canada called Memory Express and found that
the sales person I dealt with worked as hard for me as she did for her firm and
I have worked with her since on issues so there are people o

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[James Knott via talk]

On 08/01/2016 12:49 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
>
> > Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread,
> getting access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux?
>
> Yes that's true. Most GSM phone devices can physically tether for file
> transfers, a very few cannot. A cellphone is really just an always on
> modem. I did an install a few years ago debian or Fedora, I can't
> remember which. The device relied on Windows networking to switch from
> block to character mode. You'd tether the device retrieve the windows
> connection app and bobs ur uncle. I tried it once at a friend's place
>

Many of the old 2G phones could be used as a dial up modem, and used the
"AT" commands to control the call, just as with a regular dial up
telephone modem.  Smart phones support tethering via either USB or
WiFi.  I have my Nexus 5 configured as a WiFi access point and, when
it's enabled, my computer can connect to it, as it would any other WiFi
access point.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Aug 1, 2016 10:54 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
wrote:
>
> Hello Russell,
>
>
> Thanks for your message.
>
> My comments are inline below.
>
> Steve
>
> - Original Message - From: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>
> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <
apet...@aspetrie.net>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 10:48 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
>
>
>> On Jul 30, 2016 1:28 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>>
>>>
>
> 
>
>
>>
>> This device looks promising to me. New Old Stock is the reason I go to
>> Above All etc.
>>
>>
http://m.ebay.ca/itm/US-Robotics-56K-USB-Modem-Windows-Mac-Linux-/272305326036?nav=SEARCH
>>
>> http://support.usr.com/support/5637/5637-ug/install.html
>>
>> Here's a snippet from the support page.
>>
>> "Linux Kernel 2.4.20 and Higher
>>
>> You need a USB modem driver (CDC ACM) compiled into a Linux kernel 2.4.20
>> or higher or as a loadable module for your kernel. Installation of the
>> modem under these kernels is fully automatic provided your kernel has the
>> Plug and Play module enabled (default). You do not need to install any
>> drivers off the USRobotics installation CD-ROM. "
>>
>
> Thanks for this !! Looks very promising !!
>
> Seems that USB support for modems is being kept up-to-date in Linux, as
the usb modem driver source code is present in linux 3.16 kernel (used by
debian 8):
>
>   drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c
>   drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.h
>
> Also, I see a web page with a Linux patch notice dated 17 November 2014
"[3.16.y-ckt,stable] Patch "USB: cdc-acm: add quirk for control-line state
requests" has been added to staging queue".
>
> Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread,
getting access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux?

Yes that's true. Most GSM phone devices can physically tether for file
transfers, a very few cannot. A cellphone is really just an always on
modem. I did an install a few years ago debian or Fedora, I can't remember
which. The device relied on Windows networking to switch from block to
character mode. You'd tether the device retrieve the windows connection app
and bobs ur uncle. I tried it once at a friend's place

In my case I just reinstalled with the device tethered and linux set up the
serial tty. However on the next boot the device was stuck in block mode.

There is usbmodeswitch to handle that switching tho. UDEV handles /dev
hotplugging. So a simple rule handles the switch from block to character
mode. There is a serial string which the device must send to identify
itself. Pop that in a UDEV rule and you were set to go.

>
> Using Google, I found lots of documentation on getting USB modems to work
on Linux (including the PPP stuff for the dial-up Internet link).
>
> So I will try a USRobotics USR5637 56K V.92 USB modem.
>
> 
>
>
>>
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> Talk Mailing List
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>>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> Russell
>> Sent from mobile.
>>
>
> ---
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Russell
Sent from mobile.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Hugh,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <h...@mimosa.com>
To: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Cc: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




| From: Russell Reiter via talk <talk@gtalug.org>

| > So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and 
start

| again,
|
| Dell is a branded manufacturer. OEM whiteboxes are usually assembled 
by a
| local integrator, or yourself, from branded and or unbranded parts 
you

| source out.







Generally speaking, each manufacturer makes an inexpensive, flashy,
and fast-changing line of products for consumers, and a more
expensive, staid, reliable, stable line for businesses.  (Servers are
another line, but this can blur.)

It sure seems that Steve would want a business model.  Assuming he
wants a pre-built model at all.



Right -- I want a business model.


Most of my experience with business models has been buying them
off-lease.  These machines have been pretty solid and reliable.  Oh,
and old.


I want new hardware, for the last computer I will probably ever buy.





Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort.  DVI is
disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported.  This
might affect the choice of monitor.




Hmmm -- thanks for the tip.

I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus 
the monitor I have chosen:


LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, 
DVI-D, D-Sub,
contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, 
flicker-safe;







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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Russell,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>
To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." 
<apet...@aspetrie.net>

Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;









[3] case with plenty of free expansion slots, fan mounts and generous 
air

flow clearances;

Here's the top critical review of your case, at least I think it's the 
same

one. I lifted this from Newegg. Note the issue with SSD mounts.

8/26/2015 8:29:07 PM

   Pros: It looks nice. It's quiet. Cable management is okay.

   Cons: The case came bent near the power supply. This was easily 
fixable

but it says something about how they package the case for shipping. My
friend ordered a Define S case and his came with even more damage. The 
back
of the case was bent and the LED light plug was broken. This does not 
make
me want to buy another fractal design product. The biggest complaint I 
have
about the case is that ssd mounts don't fit either of my ssd's. 
Admittedly
I do have on ssd that is slightly bigger than the other, but the 
smaller
one is a standard 2.5" drive that I can't mount because it's too big 
for
the mount they designed. It makes me wonder if any ssd's can fit in 
this

mount. Overall I'm not impressed.



I'm not impressed, either.

Based on earlier GTALUG advice (from Lennart) that the front door on the 
Fractal Design case (if closed) is inviting a self-ejecting optical 
drive to destroy itself, I already decided to drop the Fractal Design 
case(with its front door) and I'm going to investigate Lennart's 
suggested substitution: Silverstone TJ04-E.



Here's the review which led me to the previous, which I think is your
choice.

http://m.newegg.com/Product/TopReviewDetails?itemnumber=N82E16811352049=True



I couldn't find the exact critical review from which you got the 
critical review snippet, but the damage to the case, and the lack of SSD 
mount space, just confirm my decision to drop the Fractal Design case.





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Sent from mobile.

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Loui,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Loui Chang" <louipc@gmail.com>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On Mon 25 Jul 2016 10:47 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:





I have almost no Linux / Unix experience.


After reading this thread for awhile I feel like I need to be some 
kind of voice
of reason here. I think it would be unwise to replace your main PC by 
struggling

with a new OS, struggling with hardware/build, etc.

My advice:
- Get yourself an inexpensive off the shelf Windows 10 computer.
  Windows 10 isn't really the nightmare that Win 8 was in terms of UI.
  You should do just fine with it.
- Use free and open source software on Windows as much as you can.
- Here you can figure out how to export your emails into a 
free/universal format
- If you still feel like trying Linux, then make yourself some Live 
USB flash

  drives to play around with.
- etc...



It would certainly be a lot less work for me, simply to get an 
off-the-shelf Windows 10 PC, to replace the existing Windows XP PC. But 
there would still be a lot of work, considering that there is no 
transparent upgrade from Windows XP to Windows 10.


I do not want to continue to use a Microsoft OS as my primary OS.

My concession to Microsoft, is to purchase an OEM-license Windows 7 for 
installation on the new Linux PC, as a fall-back environment for Windows 
apps (from the existing Win XP PC or not).


The main reasons I want to get away from Microsoft:

1. From what I understand, Microsoft has been known to sneakily 
automatically "update" a PC to Windows 10 from an earlier version of 
Windows. Is this true? Regardless, I already loathe Microsoft enough 
that I have no desire to continue using a MS OS.


2, I have read that Windows 10 gathers usage statistics and delivers 
them to Microsoft. No thanks !!


3. Linux, being open source, is known to be more secure than a Microsoft 
OS. Plus, considering that so few desktops run Linux, as compared to 
Windows, this makes Linux a much less "interesting" target for malware 
practitioners.


* * *
* * *

Although I have little hands-on Linux experience, I am a "retired" 
software engineer, with over 30 years independent contract programming 
experience.


I have already confirmed that the critical apps I use on Win XP, have 
suitable versions / replacements on Linux.


Years ago, I did some extensive progamming work on a large insurance 
company's IBM AIX (flavour of Unix), using the Korn shell. Hooked up 
that company, to an online securities trading service network, so 3rd. 
party stockbrokers can sell to their clients, the insurance co's 
financial products (GICs, annuities).


I have plenty of command line experience on Win XP: cmd.exe, MySQL 
client, PostgreSQL client.


Also, I am already doing some work on debian Linux and DragonFlyBSD, on 
cloud-hosted KVM VMs.


So I'm not at all afraid of Linux. In fact I look forward to the 
stimulating challenge of learning Linux.


Finally, I look forward to enjoying a tremendous sense of moral 
satisfaction, from having refused to bend the knee to the Microsoft 
monopoly. This will be the last time I pay money to MS (Windows 7 on the 
new Linux PC, will not be the primary OS, the debian 8 will be the 
primary OS).







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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Christopher,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Browne" <cbbro...@gmail.com>
To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." 
<apet...@aspetrie.net>

Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




Vis a vis the email part, I would think it possible that it should be
pretty easy to replicate IMAP locally.

I haven't used this in several years, but have installed and used a 
system

called offlineimap (see http://www.offlineimap.org/) which made it
relatively easy to duplicate IMAP repositories on a per user basis.

It needed only a couple lines of configuration per source.  And note 
it is

available as a Debian package :-)
https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=offlineimap



In my case, I prefer to avoid IMAP and find some more direct way to 
mass-convert the Outlook Express local email folders on the Win XP PC, 
over to Thunderbird local email folders on Linux.


However, if using IMAP as an intermediary representation, turns out to 
be a good way to do the email mass-conversion, then the offlineimap 
system could prove a usefully simple way to get IMAP support for the 
conversion.


I took a quick look at the offlineimap website. Looks like the product 
is still active, and also that a replacement product project is ongoing.


 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Dee,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigte...@gmail.com>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
<talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
snip




I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can 
tell you

that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both
secure boot and UEFI.



You are correct -- according to the debian 8 docs, there is (improved) 
UEFI support in debian 8. It is the secure boot that is not supported.



(My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main
system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had
been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian 
(testing)

installed previously.


(Shudder.)

So, is it a correct presumption that, when you got the system back from 
warranty repair, the new main system disk had been configured with a PC 
seller's "standard" Microsoft Windows installation, setup to secure boot 
only windows, through the windows boot manager?


I am hoping that it will be feasible for me to specify to the PC system 
builder, both: 1. HDD partitioning configuration (there's only one HDD), 
and 2. multi-boot setup (ready for a drop-in debian 8 installation). So 
the debian installation I will do myself, requires minimal messing with 
the boot setup.



This were not straightforward but I was able to get
things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager
and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend 
here!)

and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise.
What I did I don't remember


Too bad you don't remember.

But, do you now have your PC configured with multi-boot, so you can boot 
on bare metal, either: 1. Microsoft Windows or 2. debian Linux?


If you do have such a multi-boot setup operational, may I come back and 
pick your brain on your multi-boot setup? (After I have updated my 
proposed PC hardware configuration per GTALUG advice, and also 
established revised benchmark pricing through PCPartPicker.)



just remember that it was quite an odessey and
more than somewhat frustrating but I was successful - - - and I'm not
at all competent as a programmer nor any kind of 'under the hood' 
person

when it comes to computers. I'm just a tool user when it comes to
computers at this point and wishing I could keep it there!)



The "odessey" part I can relate to. I like to refer to those kinds of 
struggles as "character building".


I'm a computer-tool user also, but I do have programming skills, and a 
certain comfort level getting under the hood. However, I would like to 
minimize the dirty hands, by researching ahead and developing an 
understanding of the multi-boot setup (windows + debian).


My preferred scenario has the PC system builder delivering the new PC, 
with Microsoft Windows 7 (OEM) installed to boot onto bare metal, but 
with a pre-agreed HDD partitioning and multi-boot setup, so it's a 
straightforward drop-in installation task, for me to add a debian 8 
Linux, that also boots onto bare metal. The idea is to avoid wiping the 
windows installation and boot setup, as delivered by the PC system 
builder, so as to keep the system builder committed to my mental health 
:)


Once the new Linux PC is settled in and working, as a windows + debian 
multi-boot system, I'd be happy to document in detail, the whole 
partition configuration and multi-boot setup.


To add complication, I would like, once the new PC is booting debian 
Linux from the HDD onto bare metal, to imrove performance by providing 
for debian to boot (mostly) from a "shadow" copy on the HDD, and then do 
all subsequent dynamic loading of debian components, from the SSD.



Regards

Dee 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

>
> Perhaps the price seems high, because my desire for longevity,
cool-running reliability and expandability has motivated specification of:
>
> [1] powerful air-cooled CPU cooler with sealed convection heat pipes;
> [2] power supply will still operate well below maximum output capacity,
with additional components in the PC;
> [3] case with plenty of free expansion slots, fan mounts and generous air
flow clearances;

Here's the top critical review of your case, at least I think it's the same
one. I lifted this from Newegg. Note the issue with SSD mounts.

8/26/2015 8:29:07 PM

Pros: It looks nice. It's quiet. Cable management is okay.

Cons: The case came bent near the power supply. This was easily fixable
but it says something about how they package the case for shipping. My
friend ordered a Define S case and his came with even more damage. The back
of the case was bent and the LED light plug was broken. This does not make
me want to buy another fractal design product. The biggest complaint I have
about the case is that ssd mounts don't fit either of my ssd's. Admittedly
I do have on ssd that is slightly bigger than the other, but the smaller
one is a standard 2.5" drive that I can't mount because it's too big for
the mount they designed. It makes me wonder if any ssd's can fit in this
mount. Overall I'm not impressed.

Here's the review which led me to the previous, which I think is your
choice.

http://m.newegg.com/Product/TopReviewDetails?itemnumber=N82E16811352049=True

> [4] motherboard with plenty of slots for expandability and M.2 PCIe 4x
lanes support for SDD;
>
> Speed is important. but never at the cost of reliability.
>
> Although I am price conscious, my focus is on value for money, given the
requirements for speed, longevity, cool-running reliability and
expandability.
>
>
>> Here are some you could consider.
>>
>
> 
>
>
>> Here's a similar page from Canada Computers, another Canadian chain.
>> They have in-house service too (not warranty service for branded
>> computers).
>> <
http://www.canadacomputers.com/search_result.php?checkVal0=1=1=0=1=2=1=1=1=1=1=1=0=4=0==0=1=1203=7_1203
>
>> (I hope that link works.)
>>
>
> I'll keep them in mind.
>
> 
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[William Park via talk]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 03:12:51PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort.  DVI is
> disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported.  This
> might affect the choice of monitor.

And, all my monitors are DVI, and my video card is dual-DVI... 
-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Russell Reiter via talk 

| > So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start
| again,
| 
| Dell is a branded manufacturer. OEM whiteboxes are usually assembled by a
| local integrator, or yourself, from branded and or unbranded parts you
| source out.

Russell's explanation matches my understanding of the (informal) term
"white box".

More about big manufacturers:

Generally speaking, each manufacturer makes an inexpensive, flashy,
and fast-changing line of products for consumers, and a more
expensive, staid, reliable, stable line for businesses.  (Servers are
another line, but this can blur.)

It sure seems that Steve would want a business model.  Assuming he
wants a pre-built model at all.

Most of my experience with business models has been buying them
off-lease.  These machines have been pretty solid and reliable.  Oh,
and old.  I have a couple that have been on essentially 24/7 since
2003 (I bought them off-lease on the day of the blackout).  I should
replace them for several reasons, but they still work.

Business desktops have been trending to smaller form-factors (smaller
boxes).  That's because businesses don't play with add-on cards and
they find desk space is precious.  Larger units are still available.
Steve wants a larger box so that he can put a few full-height cards
in.  And 4 DIMMs.

Almost the only desktops that come bundled with Windows 7 pro are
business models.  Perhaps older ones at that.  By selecting offerings
with Win7pro bundled, Steve can find the boxes of interest.

Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort.  DVI is
disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported.  This
might affect the choice of monitor.

Other than video cards, add-in cards are rarely useful these days.
Plausible uses on a desktop:

- adding extra ethernet ports (not usually needed on a desktop)

- RAID controllers

- supporting something newer than the machine (unpredicatable)
  + adding USB3 to an old machine

- supporting something much older than the machine
  + supporting SCSI or SAS or other odd things
  + serial ports (but USB dongles do this well enough)
  + printer ports for ancient printers or for hardware hacking
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Mon 25 Jul 2016 10:47 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting
> Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM
> vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows
> 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use.  I definitely am NOT
> going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
> 
> I have almost no Linux / Unix experience.

After reading this thread for awhile I feel like I need to be some kind of voice
of reason here. I think it would be unwise to replace your main PC by struggling
with a new OS, struggling with hardware/build, etc.

My advice:
 - Get yourself an inexpensive off the shelf Windows 10 computer.
   Windows 10 isn't really the nightmare that Win 8 was in terms of UI.
   You should do just fine with it.
 - Use free and open source software on Windows as much as you can.
 - Here you can figure out how to export your emails into a free/universal 
format
 - If you still feel like trying Linux, then make yourself some Live USB flash
   drives to play around with.
 - etc...
 
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Christopher Browne via talk]

Vis a vis the email part, I would think it possible that it should be
pretty easy to replicate IMAP locally.

I haven't used this in several years, but have installed and used a system
called offlineimap (see http://www.offlineimap.org/) which made it
relatively easy to duplicate IMAP repositories on a per user basis.

It needed only a couple lines of configuration per source.  And note it is
available as a Debian package :-)
https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=offlineimap

There are sophisticated IMAP servers that are complex to manage, but this
was pretty easy.  If it covers your needs, then it's a pretty good answer.

I'd like to try out one of the options that uses Postgres as back end;
there should be big storage savings available via email contents being
automatically compressed in "TOAST" columns, but that is certainly a way
more complex approach.  Offlineimap is pretty simple!
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

>
> So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start
again,

Dell is a branded manufacturer. OEM whiteboxes are usually assembled by a
local integrator, or yourself, from branded and or unbranded parts you
source out.



> If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware
compatibility with Linux, I could wind up

This has been the adventure.

> stuck with a PC I can't use. I agree it's a small risk. But the advent of
"secure boot" and UEFI make me nervous, I understand that these are not yet
supported under Linux.

Secure boot is a misnomer. Trusted boot would be a better term, if it
weren't most probably just a way of slowing down adoption of Foss operating
systems using FUD.

However anti-trust laws are in place and Foss support is well ... Sorry I
can't help myself ...

The Foss is strong within BIOS. Luke, do or do not, there is no try. :-)

>
> So my compromise is to specify precisely the components I want (having
carefully researched their compatibility with Linux) and then decide how to
get the PC built from those components.

One gotcha is the middleware, even branded hw may say linux supported but
there is no API or a sketchy one at best.

Russell
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 30, 2016 1:28 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
wrote:


>
> So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't
find any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux.
>

This device looks promising to me. New Old Stock is the reason I go to
Above All etc.

http://m.ebay.ca/itm/US-Robotics-56K-USB-Modem-Windows-Mac-Linux-/272305326036?nav=SEARCH

http://support.usr.com/support/5637/5637-ug/install.html

Here's a snippet from the support page.

"Linux Kernel 2.4.20 and Higher

You need a USB modem driver (CDC ACM) compiled into a Linux kernel 2.4.20
or higher or as a loadable module for your kernel. Installation of the
modem under these kernels is fully automatic provided your kernel has the
Plug and Play module enabled (default). You do not need to install any
drivers off the USRobotics installation CD-ROM. "

If you browse eBay you will find lots of OEM stuff with CD's and linux
drivers. The problem with this is twofold, kernel age and the driver
packaging. ie. might have only an rpm, in which case you'd have to repack
as dpkg and or tinker with libraries which address the older kernel.

You have to be able to access the UART or s/w emulationion used by the
device. Unfortunately even knowing the series number is not enough, there
are a number of iterations.

Here are a couple of quotes from,

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/serial-uart/

"NS16550
Same as NS16450 with a 16-byte send and receive buffer but the buffer
design was flawed and could not be reliably be used.

NS16550A
Same as NS16550 with the buffer flaws corrected. The 16550A and its
successors have become the most popular UART design in the PC industry,
mainly due to its ability to reliably handle higher data rates on operating
systems with sluggish interrupt response times."

"In internal modems, the modem designer will frequently emulate the
8250A/16450 with the modem microprocessor, and the emulated UART will
frequently have a hidden buffer consisting of several hundred bytes.
Because of the size of the buffer, these emulations can be as reliable as a
16550A in their ability to handle high speed data. However, most operating
systems will still report that the UART is only a 8250A or 16450, and may
not make effective use of the extra buffering present in the emulated UART
unless special drivers are used."

> 
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
 wrote:
snip
>
> If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware
> compatibility with Linux, I could wind up stuck with a PC I can't use. I
> agree it's a small risk. But the advent of "secure boot" and UEFI make me
> nervous, I understand that these are not yet supported under Linux.
>
I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can tell you
that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both
secure boot and UEFI.

(My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main
system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had
been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian (testing)
installed previously. This were not straightforward but I was able to get
things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager
and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend here!)
and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise. What
I did I don't remember just remember that it was quite an odessey and
more than somewhat frustrating but I was successful - - - and I'm not
at all competent as a programmer nor any kind of 'under the hood' person
when it comes to computers. I'm just a tool user when it comes to
computers at this point and wishing I could keep it there!)

Regards

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Loui,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Loui Chang" <louipc@gmail.com>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On Thu 28 Jul 2016 13:51 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one
off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card 
together

with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of
course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 
TB

capacity drives should be sufficient.


Portable external usb hard drives are comically cheaper if you 
consider price

per terabyte.



That's good news. 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Hugh,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <h...@mimosa.com>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>

| - Original Message - From: "Russell Reiter" 
<rreite...@gmail.com>


| > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.
| >
| > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html
| >
|
| Brilliant !!
|
| >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for 
my

| use:
|
| -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It 
supports:
| ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what 
I'm

| looking for (data use);

I don't think it is useful to you.

The point of HylaFAX is to support FAXing.  Conveniently, it allowed
non-FAX uses to share the same serial port.  But elsewhere you said
you didn't do any FAXing.  So there is no benefit in running HylaFAX.



So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't 
find any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux.


 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Clifford,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>

To: <talk@gtalug.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On 28/07/16 01:50 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, 
and keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra 
expense of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for 
dial-up access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 
Mbs DSL service.


If you are spending $15 per month on dial-up Internet, you are also 
spending something for your hard line. I was spending $60 per month my 
hard line until I realized everyone in my home had cell phones and had 
made the hard line superfluous. Your hard line plus the dial-up 
service probably will not cost appreciably more and may end up costing 
less than a DSL or cable Internet service. You will also have a much 
better user experience with that compared to dial-up.




I don't understand what you mean by "hard line".

I use no "hard line" apart from my landline telephone service over the 
telco's twisted copper pair. The dial-up modem connects througn this 
same telephone landline (twisted copper pair) service. I use no cell 
phone. And there's nobody else here.


What is "hard line" technology? Is this not just a generic term for DSL 
(over twisted coper pair) or cable or e.g. Bell Fibe?


When I switch to DSL, the connection is going to use the same twisted 
copper pair, with some fancy new interface at the telco central office 
end, where "my" twisted copper pair terminates. My ISP will provide and 
setup the DSL modem at my end of the twisted copper pair.


Your stated goal of comparing the dial-up experience on XP to Linux is 
really pointless unless you run the test on the same hardware hitting 
the same host at the same time. Of course a 12 year old machine with a 
crufty Windows XP installation running a browser that does not support 
modern web standards is going to be slower than a modern machine 
running any modern operating system running any modern browser. It 
seems like a lot of bother to prove something of little consequence.




My main purpose is not curiosity. It's to minimize the psychological 
stress of the switchover from the Win XP PC to the new Linux PC. Please 
see my reply to Lennart where I explain this.


If one of your concerns in sticking with dial-up is that you still 
want the XP machine to have Internet access, you could add a second 
network card to your new machine and have it act as a 
router/firewall/gateway for the XP machine, which is for the best 
anyway given that XP no longer gets security updates.




Once I have switched to using the new Linux PC as my live production 
system, I hope I never ever need to connect the old Win XP to the 
Internet.


You may be able to convert your Outlook mail to Thunderbird following 
this article. <http://kb.mozillazine.org/Import_.pst_files> Once you 
have converted, set up an IMAP server on the new Linux machine and 
store your mail in IMAP format.




I prefer to avoid all such complications like IMAP. I plan to continue 
to use the same POP3 email hosting service I use now, fetch the email to 
the local Thunderbird installation, and delete the mail from the POP3 
server.


I do not remember when Microsoft switched to the .docx and .xlsx 
formats. If the default file extension in Office 2003 is .doc and 
.xls, it should be quite painless to convert those files to 
Libre/OpenOffice. The newer file formats are a bit trickier but it 
usually works without any problems because most people do not use 
features of Word or Excel that causes problems. I have only run into 
issues with heavily formatted documents and with Excel macros.




In my Outlook Express mail store folder in the Win XP filesystem, I see 
only *.dbx files. I believe *.dbx is some kind of ancient FoxPro-like 
indexed file representation.


If Thunderbird can import a complete Outlook Express email folder 
structure, from a Linux directory containing a copy of the Outlook 
Express mail store folder (with all its *.dbx files) then the mail 
should transfer over easily. I do wonder about implications of the 
difference in text line end conventions, between Windows and Linux.


If Thunderbird cannot import the mail as I describe above, then what I 
would prefer to have, is a complete export of my Outlook Express emails, 
with each email in *.eml format, and the mail folder structure 
represented by a directory structure in the file system. This way I will 
have an open-standards-based archive of all my emails from the Win XP 
PC. Then I will need some kind of "loader" program that loads the 
equivalent email structure into Thunderbird, f

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve


- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:51:33PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via 
talk wrote:

"Easy, fast, reliable" sounds pretty tempting to me.







I thought all modern tape drives were SAS these days.



They are but SAS is way overkill for my purposes.


Hmm, VXA, that used to be exabyte, which was 8mm helical scan.  After
dealing with DDS I would never trust helical scan for my data.  No 
way.

Wears out tapes so fast and so unreliable.  Well DDS was, although I
guess those were 4mm tapes.  It looks like VXA is better than that,
but I still see it listed as "The most reliable helical scan", not
"the most reliable tape format".



My experience hasn;t been so bad with DDS-4. The occasional hard read 
errors on verify phase of backup. A tape reformat usually fixes these. 
Or discard the tape and use a new one. They're inexpensive.



It's too bad LTO is rather expensive to buy a drive for.



Yes, too expensive. And LTO cartridges are too large for my liking.




My experience with USB drives is that 3.5" drives tend to fail when
transported, while 2.5" drives are much more durable, but slower and 
of

course smaller in capacity.



I'll gladly take a slower and smaller capacity 2.5" USB drive, to get 
durability.



Another annoyance with tape is that should your place burn down, you
now have to locate another tape drive of the right type to read your
backup again.  That can be a hassle depending on how popular the model 
is.

A USB drive is certainly a lot simpler that way being entirely self
contained.



Very good point.


--
Len Sorensen 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:49:29PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via 
talk wrote:

The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail
folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the
Linux PC for my email.


Why am I thinking:

Setup an IMAP server, point outlook at it, copy mail folders there,
then connect other mail program at it and copy again.



Interesting idea. I would not want the complexity of setting up an IMAP 
server myself, but could use my existing email hosting service to 
provide the IMAP server.


I use POP3 for my email hosting. Just fetch the mail to the Outlook 
Express folder on the Win XP PC, and then delete the mail from the POP3 
server. Less exposure to "sniffing" by whoever. And there's absolutely 
no way I'm going to depend on any hosting service, to backup my precious 
2.38 GB of emails.


I am sure there is a good reason not to do it that way though.  I 
would

be surprised if thunderbird can't import from outlook express files
directly.



The reason for me not to do it [bulk transfer email via IMAP & 
Internet], is the slow bandwidth of my dial-up Internet connection. I 
know, I know, I should abandon dial-up for a faster connection. And I 
plan to. But not until the new Linux PC is fully operational, preferably 
using dial-up.


I will need to connect the existing Windows XP PC and the new Linux PC 
via direct Ethernet cable anyway, to transfer the Win XP HDD contents 
over to the new Linux PC. This will be the fastest way to bulk transfer 
the mail.


Maybe thunderbird can import from Outlook Express files. And that would 
be great.



Of course I keep my mail on the server anyhow, so it is already imap,
and I don't have local folders to move around, so I haven't done that.

--
Len Sorensen 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Russell,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>
To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." 
<apet...@aspetrie.net>

Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Jul 28, 2016 1:48 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

wrote:






However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation 
from

NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be
assured, I am still open to building myself.


Just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask what dollar amount hugely
expensive represents? While the business model has changed to single
purchase with full Windows integration, there are other options 
depending

on the budget.



It was hugely expensive because I missed the fact that it included 
Windows 7 (OEM) at $187.99.


Here's the pricing analysis repeated from a summary email I sent to the 
thread, before I fetched your email:


-   NCIX*   PC PartPicker**
-   -
CPU$269.99$249.25
CPU Cooler  $92.98 $79.95
Motherboard$289.99$228.98
Memory  $44.99 $75.98
-
Case   $144.99$129.99
Power Supply   $214.98$159.99
-
Solid State Drive  $135.70$156.99
Hard Drive  $67.99 $81.95
Optical Drive   $92.98 $86.98
-
Video Monitor  $167.98$167.92
Keyboard$15.98 $40.00
Mouse  (incl.) $10.00
-
Dialup Modem$54.58 $50.00
-
-

TOTAL1:   $1593.13   $1517.98
-
-

MS Windows 7   $187.99
Assemble & Test $49.98
Environ. Fees   $16.65
-
-

TOTAL2:   $1897.73
-
-

My point is, if NCIX can match the component pricing I can get, as 
reported by PCPartPicker (and NCIX does match that pricing), and if the 
NCIX price for assembly and test is reasonable (I consider $49.98 very 
reasonable). Then why would an old guy like me, with already too many 
projects ongoing, want to build my own PC? Where is there any 
significant money to be saved? Certainly there's no time to be saved.


By using NCIX, I'm not going to have to shop all over the place to 
source every component, order it, pay for it. I'm not going to have to 
enjoy the dubious pleasure of hair-pulling "logistics" receiving 
multiple separate deliveries by a variety of couriers from a variety of 
suppliers.


An off the shelf white box, given the times, is most usually able to 
run

Linux quite well. It is the bleeding edge, with the fastest newest
chipsets, and largest capacites where stumbling blocks arise, as some 
of

the others who respond to this thread have indicated.



Yes, I expect that I could maybe shave some cost by buying something on 
sale (because being discontinued) from the latest Dell flyer, with 
Windows 7 pre-installed. I ball-parked it once at a 10% saving with a 
plausible Dell desktop PC comparable to my proposed configuration.


But what then? The disk drive partitioning and boot setup very probably 
won't suit my partitioning needs or provide multi-boot capability for 
adding Linux. When I ordered the existing Dell Windows XP desktop in 
2004, the Dell sales agent cheerfully received and acknowledged my email 
specifying the disk drive partitioning. But of course the Dell build 
assembly line grunts thought that was a joke, and I had to do a lot of 
messing around to re-work the partitioning).


So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start 
again, including a Windows 7 install. Way too much fussing around with 
Win 7 for me. I don't intend to get that involved with Win 7. It's just 
there in case I need some Win XP compatibility from a bare-metal boot of 
Win 7 (in case of problems with the Win 7 under KVM virtualization under 
Linux). Or maybe I will want to use Win 7 to play some DRM music or 
videos that Linux can't handle.


If I wipe the Dell-installed Win 7, Dell could possibly decline to 
support my Dell PC with it's wierd install of Windows 7. Even the Dell 
hardware warranty could be dishonoured.


If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware 
compatibility with Linux, I could wind up stuck with a PC I can't use. I 
agree it's a small risk. But the advent of "secure boot" and UEFI make 
me nervous, I understand that these are not yet supported under Linux.


So my compromise is to specify precisely the components I want (having 
carefully researched their compatibility with Linux) and then decide how 
to get the PC built from those components.



Russe

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Daniel Villarreal via talk]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Dear Mr. Petrie,

Good to see your inquiry on the list...

On 25/07/16 10:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> ... *BACKGROUND --  BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC*
> 
> ...  replace Dell XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8, 
> with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under
> Debian...
...
> *HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?*
...
> *1. BUILD IT MYSELF.* ... last resort.
> 
> *2. COMMERCIAL PC BUILDER.* ... in Canada.(preferably GTA)
> 
> Problem: ... commercial PC bulders to [be] competitive
> 
> *3. *** CREATIVE IDEA: GTALUG  ... member(s) build from
> components ... happy to pay
> 
...
> ... omitted a SCSI controller and tape drive, and speakers I will
> acquire later, after the base PC is working...
> 
> Many thanks to list members for taking the time to consider my
> email. Comments, questions welcome: *1.* On the proposed PC
> configuration, *2.* On the idea of GTALUG helping with the build
> project.
...
> Steve Petrie, P.Eng. ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada 
> (905) 847-3253 apet...@aspetrie.net 

I can understand not necessarily wanting to work on this yourself. I
do not receive any consideration at all from the Canadian companies
(from the Falls) on my list, but I absolutely trust them to build the
very best and stand by their work... Please see my recommendations at
my blog...
https://youcanlinux.wordpress.com/company-recommendations/

It comes down to rock-solid reliability and the highest-quality
components. I have had the shop work on my computer years after
purchase. The customers see the value in this devotion to quality,
attention-to-detail, and total pride in their work.


Sincerely,
Daniel Villarreal
http://www.youcanlinux.org
youcanlinux at gmail.com
PGP key 2F6E 0DC3 85E2 5EC0 DA03  3F5B F251 8938 A83E 7B49
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get=0xF2518938A83E7B49

P.S. If you still want to build it yourself or have GTALUG members
build a computer, you might consider sourcing the parts from this
company and even have them assemble the motherboard (proc, fan, RAM,
any ancillary cooling options you might want) and test so that you
have a reliable base system.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

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=5CfE
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Thanks to GTALUG Members,

for the last series of emails I fetched on this thread.

Many useful ideas and much interesting info. Copious snippets have been 
carefully collected into a text file.

* * *
* * *

I have reviewed the quotation I received from NCIX, and can report:

1. Contrary to my earlier assertion, NCIX in fact has included an item for:
   Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Edition 64Bit DVD SP1 OEM
   Price C$187.99 [Reg. C$214.98]

2. And the the (now corrected) NCIX total price for hardware components alone, 
seems reasonable:
   NCIX: $1593.13   PCPartPicker: $1517.98
   Caution: NCIX has made some hardware substitutions, so the total prices are 
only generically comparable.

I compared the sum of component prices, NCIX versus PCPartPicker, and NCIX is 
acceptably close to PCPartPicker.

Here is a summary of the component price comparison (all prices $C):
  -   NCIX*   PC PartPicker**
  -   -
  CPU$269.99$249.25
  CPU Cooler  $92.98 $79.95
  Motherboard$289.99$228.98
  Memory  $44.99 $75.98
  -
  Case   $144.99$129.99
  Power Supply   $214.98$159.99
  -
  Solid State Drive  $135.70$156.99
  Hard Drive  $67.99 $81.95
  Optical Drive   $92.98 $86.98
  -
  Video Monitor  $167.98$167.92
  Keyboard$15.98 $40.00
  Mouse  (incl.) $10.00
  -
  Dialup Modem$54.58 $50.00
  -
  -
   
  TOTAL1:   $1593.13   $1517.98
  -
  -

  MS Windows 7   $187.99
  Assemble & Test $49.98
  Environ. Fees   $16.65
  -
  - 
   
  TOTAL2:   $1897.73
  -
  -
Not an inexpensive PC. And not a souped-up gamer's PC. But one that I believe 
will run plenty fast and stay cool under 24/7 duty. With lots of expansion 
capacity for additional hardware, that will not stress the power supply or the 
cooling apparatus.

My plan now is to revise the Linux PC specification, taking into account the 
avalanche of advice I have received from GTALUG members. (e.g. increase RAM to 
16 GB from 8, drop the dial-up modem and source later, change HDD to Western 
Digital Black, etc.) 

Then I will ask NCIX for a revised quotation, confirm with NCIX a number of 
picky details (e.g. is the WIndows 7 DVD SP1 OEM at the latest SP level?, etc.) 
and get NCIX agreement on technical details of HDD partitioning (GPT) and boot 
setup (multi-boot, with Windows 7 installed; ready for a Linux (debian 8) 
drop-in installation.

* * *
* * *

I'm probably not going to be able respond to many more individual posts to this 
thread, but I will read any that follow with interest.

Will report back, upon conclusion of my negotiations with NCIX. The self-build 
option for the new Linux PC remains open, should NCIX be unable to satisfy the 
requirements.

Many thanks again to GTALUG !!

Best Regards,

Steve

* * *


Steve Petrie, P.Eng.

ITS-ETO Consortium
Oakville, Ontario, Canada
(905) 847-3253
apet...@aspetrie.net
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[ac via talk]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:09:41 -0400
Mike via talk  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ac via talk  wrote:
> WordPerfect was so the best, (so was playing with lantastic and
> > arcnet :) ),
> >
> Arcnet? Sheesh. Towards the end of Arcnet's tenure, we had become so
> tired of the flakiness that we had soldered the twisted pair to all
> the network cards.  If you wanted to move a machine, you unplugged
> the arcnet card and left it hanging at the desk.

whahaha, I remember that! What I did mean though is that there was no
Duckduckgo and solving something was a different type of cool and
interesting, I have not yet started playing with Raspberry Pi so I have
sooo much to look froward to (and my python fu is strong) 

seriously though, WordPerfect was supercool, i need to ask duckduckgo
what happened to it sometime...

Andre
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 28, 2016 6:29 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" 
wrote:
>
> | From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
>
> | - Original Message - From: "Russell Reiter" 
>
> | > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.
> | >
> | > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html
> | >
> |
> | Brilliant !!
> |
> | >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my
> | use:
> |
> | -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports:
> | ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm
> | looking for (data use);
>
> I don't think it is useful to you.

True enough. The description of the box, it's purpose, and the current
availability of internet connectivity made me assume the modem in the
description was to be used for faxing for a home based business. Fax is
still widely used in B2B and customer communication. I hadn't even thought
of dialup to an ISP.



>
> That's almost all about Class I and Class II FAX command support.
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Russell
Sent from mobile.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Thu 28 Jul 2016 13:51 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one
> off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card together
> with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of
> course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 TB
> capacity drives should be sufficient.

Portable external usb hard drives are comically cheaper if you consider price
per terabyte.

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 

| - Original Message - From: "Russell Reiter" 

| > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.
| >
| > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html
| >
| 
| Brilliant !!
| 
| >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my
| use:
| 
| -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports:
| ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm
| looking for (data use);

I don't think it is useful to you.

The point of HylaFAX is to support FAXing.  Conveniently, it allowed
non-FAX uses to share the same serial port.  But elsewhere you said
you didn't do any FAXing.  So there is no benefit in running HylaFAX.

I ran HylaFAX for years.  Because I needed FAXing.  It was a bit
complicated to set up.  Partly because I used an unsupported FAX modem
so I had to configure the software and the modem to get along.  Partly
because HylaFAX is meant to handle larger-scale FAX installations
(many users, several FAX modems, ...).

It turns out that many FAX modems incorrectly implement the various
standards.  Modems with Class II FAXing commands are theoretically
best because they make fewer realtime demands on the computer.  But in
practice, the implementations are often sub-standard.

Linux is (used to be?) quite adept handling modems.  That was part of
the culture in the beginning.  But for internet access you need to use
something a little more intricate: PPP.

My ISP (Telnet Communications) provides me with ADSL and VDSL
broadband over phone lines.  This does not interfere with using the
phone lines for voice at the same time.  As a bonus, they used to
allow customers so many hours a month of telephone MODEM access at no
extra charge; they may have stopped -- I would not have noticed.

Interestingly enough, ADSL uses PPPoE (PPP over Ethernet (instead of
RS232 or the like)).

| -- "WHICH MODEMS CAN BE USED WITH HYLAFAX" the compatibility table shows
| some USRobotics (now 3Com) modems, but none are recommended, so I will
| look to buy a recommended modem instead;

That's almost all about Class I and Class II FAX command support.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 28, 2016 1:51 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
wrote:
>

>
> Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and
keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense of
DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up access. My
ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL service.

This is a pretty comprehensive historical overview of the state of things.
Lots of troubleshooting tips for linux users, including the dreaded boot
windows first to initialize the modem and then reboot to linux. :-)

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/Modem-HOWTO/

>
>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Good luck and have fun.
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk]

On 28/07/16 01:50 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and 
keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense 
of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up 
access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL 
service.


If you are spending $15 per month on dial-up Internet, you are also 
spending something for your hard line. I was spending $60 per month my 
hard line until I realized everyone in my home had cell phones and had 
made the hard line superfluous. Your hard line plus the dial-up service 
probably will not cost appreciably more and may end up costing less than 
a DSL or cable Internet service. You will also have a much better user 
experience with that compared to dial-up.


Your stated goal of comparing the dial-up experience on XP to Linux is 
really pointless unless you run the test on the same hardware hitting 
the same host at the same time. Of course a 12 year old machine with a 
crufty Windows XP installation running a browser that does not support 
modern web standards is going to be slower than a modern machine running 
any modern operating system running any modern browser. It seems like a 
lot of bother to prove something of little consequence.


If one of your concerns in sticking with dial-up is that you still want 
the XP machine to have Internet access, you could add a second network 
card to your new machine and have it act as a router/firewall/gateway 
for the XP machine, which is for the best anyway given that XP no longer 
gets security updates.


You may be able to convert your Outlook mail to Thunderbird following 
this article.  Once you 
have converted, set up an IMAP server on the new Linux machine and store 
your mail in IMAP format.


I do not remember when Microsoft switched to the .docx and .xlsx 
formats. If the default file extension in Office 2003 is .doc and .xls, 
it should be quite painless to convert those files to Libre/OpenOffice. 
The newer file formats are a bit trickier but it usually works without 
any problems because most people do not use features of Word or Excel 
that causes problems. I have only run into issues with heavily formatted 
documents and with Excel macros.


I have built many systems since the late '80s. I have never bought a 
case that did not come with all the hardware I needed and I have never 
had a system not boot the first time I turned it on. The machine on 
which I am typing this, I assembled from components in Sep. 2009. I have 
since upgraded various components and I will probably assemble another 
machine this fall. If you can assemble IKEA furniture, you can assemble 
a PC.


It sounds like you may want to experiment with different distributions. 
If so, you should consider going straight to 32GB of RAM for the nominal 
price difference over the lifespan of the machine so that you can play 
around with different distributions running in virtual machines. You can 
get by with 16GB of RAM but if your motherboard has only two DIMM slots, 
you will have to throw out both sticks to go to 32GB later and most 
people do not want to do that.


--
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay

+ 1 647-778-8696

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:49:29PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail
> folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the
> Linux PC for my email.

Why am I thinking:

Setup an IMAP server, point outlook at it, copy mail folders there,
then connect other mail program at it and copy again.

I am sure there is a good reason not to do it that way though.  I would
be surprised if thunderbird can't import from outlook express files
directly.

Of course I keep my mail on the server anyhow, so it is already imap,
and I don't have local folders to move around, so I haven't done that.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:51:33PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> "Easy, fast, reliable" sounds pretty tempting to me.
> 
> Thanks to advice from GTALUG, I'm prettly close to abandoning my
> nostalgic love for SCSI tape backup :)
> 
> If I can be comfortable with portable hard drive resistance to
> mechanical shock ... And if a 2.5" portable drive will fit in my very
> small off-site storage box ...
> 
> I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one
> off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card together
> with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of
> course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 TB
> capacity drives should be sufficient.

I thought all modern tape drives were SAS these days.

Hmm, VXA, that used to be exabyte, which was 8mm helical scan.  After
dealing with DDS I would never trust helical scan for my data.  No way.
Wears out tapes so fast and so unreliable.  Well DDS was, although I
guess those were 4mm tapes.  It looks like VXA is better than that,
but I still see it listed as "The most reliable helical scan", not
"the most reliable tape format".

It's too bad LTO is rather expensive to buy a drive for.

Personally I do backups with rsnapshot accross the internet to my parents
place, and their system does it to mine.  Since the changes are not very
big, the rsync doesn't need much bandwidth.

My experience with USB drives is that 3.5" drives tend to fail when
transported, while 2.5" drives are much more durable, but slower and of
course smaller in capacity.

Another annoyance with tape is that should your place burn down, you
now have to locate another tape drive of the right type to read your
backup again.  That can be a hassle depending on how popular the model is.
A USB drive is certainly a lot simpler that way being entirely self
contained.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Mike via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talkAlso FYI
Tuesdays after 6pm is the open house.


>> https://hacklab.to/
>>
>>
> I looked at the website -- amazing !! Reminds me of my 1960s "hippie
> commune" days. Only Hacklab seems much more grown-up and productive of
> real results, than us incredibly naive "sex, drugs & rock'n'roll" hippie
> types were ...
>
>
Now that you mention it, a little 'sex, drugs and rock' is about the
only thing hacklab is missing ;-)  Although these are modern times; even
'non-geeks' can be inspired to hack, or maybe 'geek out' on stuff.

Cheers,
Mike
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:44:23PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> The beautiful Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) case I have specified, is
> definitely brand name.

It does look very nice.  It violates just one of my case rules.  It has
a door in front of the optical drive.  I don't like those, because they
can break your optical drive if software ejected.  Of course if you don't
intend to have an optical drive which is very much a valid option these
days, then that doesn't matter, and it does make it look very clean.
I have been using the Silverstone TJ04-E myself lately.

> If I decide to build the Linux PC myself, before ordering I will confirm
> that the Fractal Design case comes with the "odds and ends".

Well I see their web page says:

Package contents

* Define R5 computer case
* User manual
* Accessory box

I would be very surprised if that box isn't full of screws and stuff.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 28, 2016 1:48 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
wrote:


> Just curious -- did you build those "couple of hundred builds" all for
> personal use?

No, probably the first 50 in the early 90's were all DOS & WIN 8088 - 80486
from obsoleted IBM business units. Pick and patch so to speak. Some for me
some for friends and friend of friends.  Later on after 95, the next 50 or
so, after taking a little training in systems integration and being exposed
to Novel networking and I started tinkering with Linux. The last MS OS I
used personally was 98.

I've participated in community builds at various locations, you know build
a box for someone who can't afford one. Some of those were Linux specific.
Clue and mini-deb come to mind.

I volunteered at a community organization and did some DOS & Win training
for people who were going to receive a donated computer. I organized fake
builds. That is I assembled and tested the box, disassembled it put all the
parts in a box and a team of volunteers or staff would assemble it as a
team building event.

This century I have assembled gamers, business and dual boot systems on
specification for people.

>
>
>> I've learned to plan for my own fumbling fingers and trying to mix and
>> match from different supply streams.
>>
>
> It's the "fumbling fingers" and "mix and match" that makes me inclined
> to use a commercial builder.

I was just pointing out that some fasteners and screws etc can be quite
tiny and if you don't have access to an immediate replacement, things can
grind to a halt.

>
> However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation from
> NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be
> assured, I am still open to building myself.

Just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask what dollar amount hugely
expensive represents? While the business model has changed to single
purchase with full Windows integration, there are other options depending
on the budget.

An off the shelf white box, given the times, is most usually able to run
Linux quite well. It is the bleeding edge, with the fastest newest
chipsets, and largest capacites where stumbling blocks arise, as some of
the others who respond to this thread have indicated.

Russell
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Russell,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>
To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "D. Hugh Redelmeier" 
<h...@mimosa.com>

Cc: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Jul 26, 2016 9:27 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" 
<talk@gtalug.org>

wrote:


| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>

| I don't really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux 
PC up

| and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.




Just to amplify what Len said:

- external serial modems are very standard and well-supported


I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatable modem will 
work

with Linux. I've not tested this tho.



I'll keep this in mind.





I tinkered with GSM tethering. I did an install with the phone 
tethered and
linux found the phones modem and created the proper serial nodes at 
the
time. On reboot, I had to fool around with usb modeswitching from 
storage

to modem using a udev rule.


My head is spinning.

Given that I'm still using dial-up on my current Windows XP system, no 
one will be surprised to learn that I carry no mobile and hope to make 
it all the way to my conference with the "Grim Reaper" and never, ever 
walk around with some oligarchic comms carrier knowing where I am.






- avoid "WinModems".  Those require proprietary drivers.  Some have






If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of 
things

that I don't notice might become problems.  Like updates.


I updated the unit I referred to above using the phones modem for 
about a

year. Even when I went over my Data plan (6gb high  speed the rest
throttled to 30kbs) I had no problems. I could even watch YouTube as 
long

as I used low res and preloaded for a couple of minutes.



Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and 
keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense 
of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up 
access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL 
service.






Good luck and have fun.
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Russell
Sent from mobile.



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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Hugh,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <h...@mimosa.com>

To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk"
<talk@gtalug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP
PC;



| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>

| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC
up
| and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.

If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you
don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about
switching to Linux.



Sorry for causing the confusion.

There is actually no hard deadline date when my Windows XP system goes
offline. I have the "luxury" of keeping the Win XP system running for as
long asI like. Until it dies from a major hardware failure, and it will
die eventually. The Dell WIn XP system is already 12 years old, and Win
XP is way too obsolete and too insecure now.

So my motivation for getting the new Linux PC up and running now, is
that it's going to be way easier to port files from a functional Win XP
system to a new Linux PC, than it will be to struggle to get the Win XP
stuff from a dead Win XP system.


If you have a bunch of applications that you are used to, you may well
find the Linux substitutes unsatisfactory.  After all, you have likely
invested a bunch of time in learning the old programs.



Good point. You have inspired me to make a list.

The two main applications I use are email (Outlook Express) and web
browsing (Firefox, Comodo Dragon).

The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail
folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the
Linux PC for my email.

I hope I can find satisfactory open source software for the porting
task. If not, I'm thinking of writing my own export & import utilities
(or paying someone else to write them), using the standard
Microsoft-provided API on Win XP for access to OE mail folders.

The absolutely vital objective is to get a 100% reliable dump of all the
OE mail folders exported into an equivalent Win XP directory structure
containing *.eml files. With rock-solid byte counts and checksuming.
This will provide a very open and accessible version of all my email
history, that faithfully replicates the OE mail folder structure. Copy
this export over to the Linux PC, import it into Thunderbird, and then
run an independent audit check of the Thundrbird mail folders, of the
byte counts and checksumming (if feasible). Call me paranoid.

Web browsing -- I understand that there are some really great web
browsers for Linux, that will make me weep with joy, as compared with my
Firefox experience under Win XP (even allowing tor my slow dial-up
Internet link).

Other apps -- although I have accumulated a vast quantity of different
applications on the Win XP system, most of them are unused.

Mainly I need:

-- a replacement for Word and Excel in Windows Office 2003 (!!), I've
already switched to using Open Office (Writer, Calc, Impress) on my Win
XP system (Open Office Impress in particular, hugely "impresses" me by
producing presentations that are rock-solid compatible with MS
PowerPoint . The OO apps are not as slick as MS Office apps, but they
are sufficiently useable for my purposes, that my "inner rebel" can cope
with any rough edges, for the pleasure of not paying Microsoft for an
Office upgrade.

-- C / C++ compilers (available on Linux);

-- PostgreSQL (available on Linux);

-- HTTP server for website development (PHP, HTML, SQL) I'm using Apache
HTTP server on Win XP. I'm planning to use Nginx (available on Linux) on
the production Linux server (in the cloud), so I will install Nginx on
the new Linux PC.

-- ftp client, tty client, ssl client, vnc client (should all be
available on Linux);

-- OpenSCAD solid modelling tool www.openscad.org (available on Linux);


You may even have important data in a proprietary format, tied to a
program that isn't available on Linux.



I do have many MS Office documents, that I occasionally need to
reference. But I do not need to convert them all in some massive swoop.


Switching environments is often a challenge and a learning experience.
It is a bit risky to do it in a rush.



Good advice -- be assured -- I do not underestimate the challenges
involved. Fortunately for me, I am a "retired" softeare engineer.

Hope I clarified above -- there really is no "rush" at all. Except for
the fact that an older-type guy like me, is running out of life
expectancy :)

The only real rush is getting the Win 7 (OEM). Because I believe that
Microsoft has announced that Win 7 will not be available after (1? /
31?) October 2016. I want Win 7 for its support for Win XP
compatibility. Win 7 will

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Russell,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>

To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng."
<apet...@aspetrie.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP
PC;



On Jul 26, 2016 9:39 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk"
<talk@gtalug.org>
wrote:


Hello Russel,






I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and
ends"


That's OK as Lennart pointed out name brand stuff usually comes
complete
with the necessary parts.

However in twenty five years of tinkering and a couple of hundred
builds,


Just curious -- did you build those "couple of hundred builds" all for
personal use?


I've learned to plan for my own fumbling fingers and trying to mix and
match from different supply streams.



It's the "fumbling fingers" and "mix and match" that makes me inclined
to use a commercial builder.

However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation from
NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be
assured, I am still open to building myself.


...

Hacklab -- I remember vaguely reading about them. Thanks for the
reminder.


I brought them up because GTALUG doesn't have a particular place of
their
own. I checked the Hacklab website and it looks like the list
administrators have their monthly meeting at that location.



Yes, I suspected that GTALUG has no permanent space, so the idea of a
GTALUG-provided system building "clinic" for WinXP "orphans" would be
impractical.


Also FYI Tuesdays after 6pm is the open house.

https://hacklab.to/



I looked at the website -- amazing !! Reminds me of my 1960s "hippie
commune" days. Only Hacklab seems much more grown-up and productive of
real results, than us incredibly naive "sex, drugs & rock'n'roll" hippie
types were ...

One issue with Hacklab is logistics -- I own no car (transit & walking
since 2004) and no longer have a valid driver's license (no car
rentals). I live in Oakville, so after I order and accumulate all the
parts at my apartment, I would need to get them (and myself) to Hacklab
without paying an outrageous taxicab fare. Oh, but there's that
new-fangled thing called Uber ...

Ideally, for operational flexibility, it would be good to have use of
some small temporary secure storage space at Hacklab. I'll check this
out if I decide to build the Linux PC myself.



If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out
Hacklab. And find my "build buddy(ies)" on GTALUG :)


I live close to that location so if it is just unfamiliarity with the
build
process and it can be done there, I'd be happy to lend a hand at some
point.



Really appreciate your generous offer.

If I decide to build the Linux PC myelf at Hacklab, I will contact you
offline.





HTH
Russell





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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>

To: "Loui Chang" <louipc@gmail.com>
Cc: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:05:18PM -0400, Loui Chang wrote:

Perhaps for a modest price?
http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/


I don't think that supports the USR5638.

I remember the modems those drivers support.

Multitech has a PCIe modem that should work with linux, but it is
over $200.



Too expensive for me.


Of course an external real serial modem is often more likely to work
with linux.  An external USB modem might work.



Right -- the good old RS-232 serial port.

A fallback solution if I can't find a PCIe modem that works.


--
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>

To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk"
<talk@gtalug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP
PC;



On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:39:25AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via
talk wrote:

I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and
ends"


In my experience, any case you buy should come with those.  Maybe I
have never had a problem with that because I buy name brand cases.
For all I know the $20 cases don't include those.



The beautiful Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) case I have specified, is
definitely brand name.

If I decide to build the Linux PC myself, before ordering I will confirm
that the Fractal Design case comes with the "odds and ends".


--
Len Sorensen


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Russell,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Russell Reiter" <rreite...@gmail.com>

To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng."
<apet...@aspetrie.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP
PC;



Sent from mobile.

On Jul 26, 2016 9:41 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk"
<talk@gtalug.org>
wrote:


Hello Loui,


Thanks for your response.



Perhaps for a modest price?
http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
---



I took a quick look at the site.

Looks like an interesting possibility.


The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.

http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html



Brilliant !!

From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my
use:

-- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports:
... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm
looking for (data use);

-- "WHICH MODEMS CAN BE USED WITH HYLAFAX" the compatibility table shows
some USRobotics (now 3Com) modems, but none are recommended, so I will
look to buy a recommended modem instead;

-- "Download ... HylaFAX is freely available under copyright in complete
source form. ... Various binary packages are available for HylaFAX. They
are currently available in two places";





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Sent from mobile.



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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Mike via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ac via talk  wrote:

WordPerfect was so the best, (so was playing with lantastic and
> arcnet :) ),
>
>
Arcnet? Sheesh. Towards the end of Arcnet's tenure, we had become so tired
of the flakiness that we had soldered the twisted pair to all the network
cards.  If you wanted to move a machine, you unplugged the arcnet card and
left it hanging at the desk.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[ac via talk]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:17:28 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:
> On 07/28/2016 08:15 AM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
> > On Jul 27, 2016 11:20 PM, "William Park via talk"  > > wrote:
> > > I'll give opposite advice from the rest.  Stay with Windows.
> > > - Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully
> > > configured.
> Windows does not come free.
> The cost of Windows is built into the price.
> At one time if you tried to sell a computer without Windows 
> pre-installed you would be forbidden from getting Windows to
> pre-install on other computers.
> 
> Nothing is free.
> 
so very true
(unless you are a swimsuit model in a singles bar...)

> But my take is that its an easy sell to tell someone to get a windows 
> computer and once they do I don't have to support them because I know 
> nothing about windows and just can't help.
> If I suggest a linux computer I am suddenly responsible for all the
> ills of the internet and any piece of software that gets installed.
> When Windows problems crop up... "I guess you just have to buy a new 
> computer and upgrade to the latest version of windows."
> 
roflmao - this is so exactly what I do! :) 

> > The only reason this is the case is that Foss became a threat to
> > the profit model, otherwise it would be business as usual at
> > Microsoft, which is to squeeze every cent they can out of consumers.
> > >   If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all)
> > > learning curve to 10.
> > > - Components you list below, all come with Windows driver.
> 
> That is true that windows has better driver support.
> Partly because of the dominance of the product but partly because of 
> aggressive business tactics.
> 
> > > - Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox.  So, 
> > you can
> > >   run Linux if you like.
> >
> Linux has virtualization and you run windows with Xen(where Hyper-V 
> comes from), VirtualBox, VMWare, KVM, ...
> Linux also has Wine so you can run some windows apps natively.
> 
> > > - MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are
> > >   trying to copy.  Open/Libre Office's
> >
> That is hardly a fair comparison.
> OpenOffice has been around for quite a while.
> First as StarWriter  around 1985  where word started around 1983.
> Microsoft chooses to keep Word/Office as a Windows package with just 
> enough support for Apple to keep them out of court.
> 
> One could claim that Word/Office are just fanboy copies of
> WordPerfect which showed up in 1980 and was a far superior product
> till well into the 1990's
> 
WordPerfect was so the best, (so was playing with lantastic and
arcnet :) ), 
ooh, and lotus-123 - before they broke it, and patrick's first Slack, 
o joy, now that was something  /*wipes misty tear from left eye*/

> 
> [snip]
> 

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Alvin Starr via talk]

On 07/28/2016 08:15 AM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:


On Jul 27, 2016 11:20 PM, "William Park via talk" > wrote:

>
> I'll give opposite advice from the rest.  Stay with Windows.
> - Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully configured.


Windows does not come free.
The cost of Windows is built into the price.
At one time if you tried to sell a computer without Windows 
pre-installed you would be forbidden from getting Windows to pre-install 
on other computers.


Nothing is free.

But my take is that its an easy sell to tell someone to get a windows 
computer and once they do I don't have to support them because I know 
nothing about windows and just can't help.
If I suggest a linux computer I am suddenly responsible for all the ills 
of the internet and any piece of software that gets installed.
When Windows problems crop up... "I guess you just have to buy a new 
computer and upgrade to the latest version of windows."


The only reason this is the case is that Foss became a threat to the 
profit model, otherwise it would be business as usual at Microsoft, 
which is to squeeze every cent they can out of consumers.


>   If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all) learning
>   curve to 10.
> - Components you list below, all come with Windows driver.



That is true that windows has better driver support.
Partly because of the dominance of the product but partly because of 
aggressive business tactics.


> - Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox.  So, 
you can

>   run Linux if you like.

Linux has virtualization and you run windows with Xen(where Hyper-V 
comes from), VirtualBox, VMWare, KVM, ...

Linux also has Wine so you can run some windows apps natively.


> - MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are
>   trying to copy.  Open/Libre Office's


That is hardly a fair comparison.
OpenOffice has been around for quite a while.
First as StarWriter  around 1985  where word started around 1983.
Microsoft chooses to keep Word/Office as a Windows package with just 
enough support for Apple to keep them out of court.


One could claim that Word/Office are just fanboy copies of WordPerfect 
which showed up in 1980 and was a far superior product till well into 
the 1990's



[snip]

--
Alvin Starr   ||   voice: (905)513-7688
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Ivan Avery Frey via talk
 wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 23:31 William Park via talk  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 12:08:56PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
>> > PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux.  When
>> > rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found
>> > the
>> > file system to become unreliable and unmountable.  A workaround that I
>> > now
>> > follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which
>> > ensures
>> > that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May be
>> > completely
>> > unnecessary now..
>>
>> That's because USB gets disconnected and reconnected.  So, /dev/sdc
>> becomes /dev/sdd in the middle of copying.
>
>
> I had an issue with a motherboard, sometimes a drive would come up sda or
> sdb. So I stuck labels on my partitions and used those in my fstab.
>

If I understand correctly the present 'correct' way to refer to a
drive is using
its uuid. Any other method is recommended to be deprecated.

(From linux-raid group notes and conversations.)

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[William Park via talk]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 09:31:13AM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
> I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is
> multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable,"
> ie. 2.5".  With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial
> synchronization.  And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy.  I
> tote one to a friend's place most weekends.  The initial cost may seem
> a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these
> days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is
> excellent.

My backup now is multi-disk raid1 BTRFS, made up of leftover harddisks.
I choose BTRFS because of "snapshot" feature.  

Before, I used to do daily, weekly, and monthly backups (rsync), which
resulted in 3 separate copies.  Now, I do daily backup, and then take
snapshot daily, weekly, and monthy.
-- 
William
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[William Park via talk]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 12:08:56PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
> PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux.  When
> rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found the
> file system to become unreliable and unmountable.  A workaround that I now
> follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which ensures
> that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May be completely
> unnecessary now..

That's because USB gets disconnected and reconnected.  So, /dev/sdc
becomes /dev/sdd in the middle of copying.
-- 
William
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[William Park via talk]

I'll give opposite advice from the rest.  Stay with Windows.
- Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully configured.
  If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all) learning
  curve to 10.
- Components you list below, all come with Windows driver.
- Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox.  So, you can
  run Linux if you like.
- MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are
  trying to copy.  Open/Libre Office's reason for existence is to
  promote MS-Office workflow, and prepare people for eventual
  migration to MS-Office.  By going with Windows, you're already
  there.

As for hardware,
- I would advice against ASrock because of my previous experience
  with them.
- If you already have SCSI, ok.  But, buying a new SCSI?
- Intel i5 comes with heatsink and fan.  Why buy third-party?
- For VM, you need 16GB+ ram.  Ideally, 8GB should be enough (4GB for
  host, 4GB for guest), but practice never turns out that way.
-- 
William

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:47:58AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
> 
> Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
> 
> BACKGROUND --  BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
> 
> I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting 
> Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM 
> vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 
> (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use.  I definitely am NOT 
> going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
> 
> I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application 
> programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses, 
> getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM 
> virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a 
> "retired" software engineer).
> 
> On 7 January 2016 I sent an inquiry email to h...@gtalug.org and Myles 
> Braithwaite responded instantly with helpfull suggestions for which I was 
> very grateful. Myles also encouraged to join the talk@gtalug.org mailing list 
> and so now here I am.
> 
> I'm looking for advice from GTALUG members on two issues:
> 
> 1. Comments on my proposed PC configuration. I have already researched 
> components and developed a detailed hardware configuration for the new PC. 
> Please see below. This configuration is not yet published on 
> ca.partpicker.com.
> 
> 2. Advice on how to get the PC built from components, that I will purchase 
> retail and supply to the builder. Here, one option I propose is for a 
> "creative" solution from GTALUG (see point 3, next section).
> 
> * * *
> * * *
> 
> HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?
> 
> It seems to me that there are three approaches I could take, to get this new 
> PC built:
> 
> 1. BUILD IT MYSELF. I can handle purchasing all the components. However, 
> although I am comfortable messing around inside the case of a computer, I've 
> never build one from components. I would prefer to have the PC assembled by 
> more experienced hands that have the skills and use of the right tools. So 
> building myself is a last resort.
> 
> 2. USE A COMMERCIAL PC SYSTEM BUILDER. Any suggestions from mailing list 
> participants, on commercial PC builders would be gratefully received. 
> However, I do not want to have to deal with import hassles, so the builder 
> must be operating in Canada.(preferably in the GTA)
> 
> Problem: It seems it will be difficult to interest commercial PC bulders in 
> Canada to supply a competitively-priced PC configured with Linux. So if I use 
> a commercial builder, the plan would be to get the PC built and delivered 
> with with Windows 7 only installed, but have a multi-boot setup. After I get 
> the PC I will install Debian 8 Linux as the primary host operating system, 
> and then install Win 7 to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under Debian.
> 
> 3. *** CREATIVE IDEA FOR GTALUG *** Perhaps there is a member (or members) of 
> GTALUG who would be able to build the PC from comnponents I supply. Naturally 
> I would be happy to pay a fee for this service Or (and this would be my 
> preference) perhaps GTALUG would be interested in taking on the buuild 
> project as a club project. I expect I would be much more happy to pay money 
> to GTALUG for helping with the build, and to get the pleasure of working with 
> GTALUG, than I would be paying and dealing with a commercial builder. Since I 
> live in Oakville in a small apartment, it would make more sense for the build 
> to happen in Toronto.
> 
> >From my casual research, there are many Win XP "orphans" like me out  there. 
> >Not only older-type people stuck on Win XP and wondering what to do before 
> >their old PC dies. But also there are plenty of small  businesses still 
> >running XP (in fact 

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Wed 27 Jul 2016 12:08 -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
> On 07/27/16 09:31, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
> > On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk  
> > wrote:
> > > I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks.  Consider
> > > diversifying to external HDDs.
> > 
> > I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is
> > multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable,"
> > ie. 2.5".  With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial
> > synchronization.  And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy.  I
> > tote one to a friend's place most weekends.  The initial cost may seem
> > a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these
> > days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is
> > excellent.
> 
> I agree with that option also.

I also agree. I have one of these:
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=1490

Sent from a computer.

--
I am Loui
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 27, 2016 3:26 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" 
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 08:32:51AM -0400, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
> > I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatible modem will
work
> > with Linux. I've not tested this tho.
>
> All Hayes is, is the AT commands.  How you speak serial to the device
> is the actual problem.  USB and internal makes that potentially difficult.

Well the fundamental problem is when the signal compression is done by the
OS rather than the modem hardware  itself. If the modem sends the info that
it will be handling compression it tends to be recognized by linux as a
serial device and connectivity can be handled in config files.

> Of course in a winmodem, there is nothing to talk to, the commands go
> from your application to another piece of software which then talks to
> the sound chip that interfaces with the phone line.
>
> > A fax is still considered a legal transmission, that is a fax to fax
> > transmission is deemed to be accepted by the recipient. A scan of a
> > document attached to an email, for legal purposes requires confirmation
by
> > the recipient.
>
> Given the number of fax recipients that are software these days, that
> is probably a horrible assumption.

I'm pretty sure a valid CSID with an  corresponding electronic document in
tiff format, which is then printed to paper, is accepted by the courts on
affidavit of service.

It's hardly an assumption, it's more like a trusted chain transaction
record.

>
> --
> Len Sorensen

Russell
Sent from mobile
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 08:32:51AM -0400, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
> I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatible modem will work
> with Linux. I've not tested this tho.

All Hayes is, is the AT commands.  How you speak serial to the device
is the actual problem.  USB and internal makes that potentially difficult.
Of course in a winmodem, there is nothing to talk to, the commands go
from your application to another piece of software which then talks to
the sound chip that interfaces with the phone line.

> A fax is still considered a legal transmission, that is a fax to fax
> transmission is deemed to be accepted by the recipient. A scan of a
> document attached to an email, for legal purposes requires confirmation by
> the recipient.

Given the number of fax recipients that are software these days, that
is probably a horrible assumption.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:27:09PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Don't retail Processors come with coolers?  Generally, they are OK
> (not outstanding) -- good enough.

Certainly intel CPUs do, except if it is a K model or a socket 2011 chip.
Apaprently intel figures if you buy an unlocked chip (K model) or a higher
end socket 2011 chip, you probably don't want their cpu cooler anyhow.
I suspect they are right.

> 2 x 4G RAM is a waste of memory sockets.  Go for higher density.

Certainly 8GB sticks make more sense these days.

> debian (quirk: no capital letter on the front) is a good OS.  It might
> not be the best intro to Linux.  People seem to recommend Mint.  I've
> never used it.

Mint is quite well put together.  There are two versions.  One is Ubuntu
based and has a release pretty much whenever Ubuntu has one (with a bit
of a delay) and expects you to reinstall to upgrade.  The other is the
Debian based one, which uses continous in place updates done by using
Debian testing, and doing an update whenever Mint is done making sure
things are stable.

> If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things
> that I don't notice might become problems.  Like updates.

That would be quite a pain.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Michael Galea via talk]

On 07/27/16 09:31, Giles Orr via talk wrote:

On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk  wrote:

| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 

| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up
| and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.

If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you
don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about
switching to Linux.


I wanted to back Hugh on a couple points: switching to Linux if you're
not familiar with it isn't something to be done quickly.  Windows
7/8/10 would also have a learning curve, but the proprietary programs
he speculated you might have will work, whereas they probably won't
with Linux.

Linux is a fantastic OS and I encourage you to use it ... but expect a
learning curve.


I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks.  Consider
diversifying to external HDDs.


I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is
multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable,"
ie. 2.5".  With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial
synchronization.  And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy.  I
tote one to a friend's place most weekends.  The initial cost may seem
a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these
days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is
excellent.



I agree with that option also.  I do a nightly backup from root, etc, 
user accounts, git, wikis, media files and the place where I keep local 
scripts to a 2.0 TB eSata drive.  I also rsync the firewalls etc and 
scripts directory to the drive.


Every week, I rsync that drive to another 2.0 TB drive mounted USB. That 
drive comes home, gets updated, and then gets off-site again.
The media collection on the drive also gets synced to the firewall 
router and the mythtv computer.


One mark of paranoia, connecting the drive via eSata allows you to hide 
it in a physical sense.  If a thief was to rip my PC from where it sits, 
they would most likely leave the drive, unless they are willing to 
follow cables, pull out heavy desk and attack suspicious bumps with 
screwdrivers.


PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux.  When 
rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found 
the file system to become unreliable and unmountable.  A workaround that 
I now follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which 
ensures that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May 
be completely unnecessary now..


--
Michael Galea
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Giles Orr via talk]

On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk  wrote:
> | From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
>
> | I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up
> | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
>
> If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you
> don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about
> switching to Linux.

I wanted to back Hugh on a couple points: switching to Linux if you're
not familiar with it isn't something to be done quickly.  Windows
7/8/10 would also have a learning curve, but the proprietary programs
he speculated you might have will work, whereas they probably won't
with Linux.

Linux is a fantastic OS and I encourage you to use it ... but expect a
learning curve.

> I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks.  Consider
> diversifying to external HDDs.

I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is
multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable,"
ie. 2.5".  With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial
synchronization.  And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy.  I
tote one to a friend's place most weekends.  The initial cost may seem
a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these
days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is
excellent.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 26, 2016 9:27 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" 
wrote:
>
> | From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
>
> | I don't really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up
> | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
>

> Just to amplify what Len said:
>
> - external serial modems are very standard and well-supported

I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatable modem will work
with Linux. I've not tested this tho.

>
> - FAX is less standard.  With care, you can select a supported modem.
>   But FAX has died, thank goodness.  About once a year I find it would
>   be handy to send a FAX, but it is usually possible to just say that
>   you cannot do it.

A fax is still considered a legal transmission, that is a fax to fax
transmission is deemed to be accepted by the recipient. A scan of a
document attached to an email, for legal purposes requires confirmation by
the recipient.

I note that the Law Society of Upper Canada is introducing new rules
regarding privileged email sent in legal proceedings.

CRA won't accept document submissions by email but a Fax is acceptable. I
think this has to do with the chain of evidence in proceedings.

For the few faxes I do send I use FaxZero.com. You can send three free
faxes a day, limited to three pages or pay a premium to send more. They
attach a fairly discrete advert to the cover page.

>
> - I don't know about external USB modems.  With luck, they emulate
>   serial modems.  I have one in my cupboard "just in case".

I tinkered with GSM tethering. I did an install with the phone tethered and
linux found the phones modem and created the proper serial nodes at the
time. On reboot, I had to fool around with usb modeswitching from storage
to modem using a udev rule.

>
> - avoid "WinModems".  Those require proprietary drivers.  Some have



>
> If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things
> that I don't notice might become problems.  Like updates.

I updated the unit I referred to above using the phones modem for about a
year. Even when I went over my Data plan (6gb high  speed the rest
throttled to 30kbs) I had no problems. I could even watch YouTube as long
as I used low res and preloaded for a couple of minutes.

>
> 
>
> Good luck and have fun.
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Russell
Sent from mobile.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 

| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up
| and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.

If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you
don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about
switching to Linux.

If you have a bunch of applications that you are used to, you may well
find the Linux substitutes unsatisfactory.  After all, you have likely
invested a bunch of time in learning the old programs.

You may even have important data in a proprietary format, tied to a
program that isn't available on Linux.

Switching environments is often a challenge and a learning experience.
It is a bit risky to do it in a rush.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things in favour of Linux.
That's what's been on my desktop since before Windows XP.



Assuming that you are intending to use a legitimate copy of Windows 7,
you may well find it cheaper to buy a suitable machine from a big PC
manufacturer.  Their incremental cost for Windows is apparently close
to $0 rather than the $100+ you have to pay to add it to your own build.

A machine you build yourself is quite possibly better, but I don't
know that you'd actually notice the difference.

(I have assembled machines for myself but more often buy off-the-shelf
machines when I see good sales.)



Just to amplify what Len said:

- external serial modems are very standard and well-supported

- FAX is less standard.  With care, you can select a supported modem.
  But FAX has died, thank goodness.  About once a year I find it would
  be handy to send a FAX, but it is usually possible to just say that
  you cannot do it.

- I don't know about external USB modems.  With luck, they emulate
  serial modems.  I have one in my cupboard "just in case".

- avoid "WinModems".  Those require proprietary drivers.  Some have
  been reverse-engineered but I would not trust the drivers to have
  been well-maintained (my opinion is not based on experience).

I would not expect serial modems to be worth the bother.



I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks.  Consider 
diversifying to external HDDs.

The LG drive supports "M-DISC" media.  They supposedly have very long 
life.



Don't retail Processors come with coolers?  Generally, they are OK
(not outstanding) -- good enough.



2 x 4G RAM is a waste of memory sockets.  Go for higher density.



debian (quirk: no capital letter on the front) is a good OS.  It might
not be the best intro to Linux.  People seem to recommend Mint.  I've
never used it.

If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things
that I don't notice might become problems.  Like updates.



Good luck and have fun.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:39:25AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends"

In my experience, any case you buy should come with those.  Maybe I
have never had a problem with that because I buy name brand cases.
For all I know the $20 cases don't include those.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

Sent from mobile.

On Jul 26, 2016 9:41 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
wrote:
>
> Hello Loui,
>
>
> Thanks for your response.

>> Perhaps for a modest price?
>> http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
>> ---
>
>
> I took a quick look at the site.
>
> Looks like an interesting possibility.

The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.

http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html

>
>
>> Talk Mailing List
>> talk@gtalug.org
>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
> ---
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Sent from mobile.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Dee,

Thanks for your response.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigte...@gmail.com>

To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apet...@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk"
<talk@gtalug.org>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP
PC;



On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
<talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
BACKGROUND --  BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC,
booting
Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU
/ KVM
vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting
Windows
7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use.  I definitely
am NOT
going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!

I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing
application
programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business
uses,
getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU /
KVM
virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background.
(I'm a
"retired" software engineer).



I haven't run the QEMU/KVM VM setup you are talking about but I have
run
Oracle's VirtualBox VM setup. Not an expert by any stretch but have
found some
holes and some good things in VirtualBox (called VBox sometimes).
Would suggest
that you look into it for an idea. I have a Win7 iteration with it
having no network
connection or one might call it in an electronic jail.


Interesting about VirtualBox -- I like the idea of no network connection
for the virtualized Win7

Might help block Microsoft from trying to do a sneaky "upgrade" of the
Win 7 to Win 10.

This outrageous Microsoft arrogance (sneaky "upgrades") is another
reason why I am looking with great relief, to moving to the world of
Linux.

snip


-
-
CPUIntel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6
MB
cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics;
CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan
158mm,
clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control;
MotherboardASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe:
2x
3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini,
 Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU
socket
lanes), extra large heat sinks;
Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB)
DDR3-1600
RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24;


would suggest going up a notch to 12 or better 16 GB of RAM - - - with
running
VMs RAM is a useful commodity!!


Good advice. Will likely take it.


-
Case   Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower
Case,
3-speed fan control (max 3 fans),
 bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU
cooler
height max 180mm, 2 dust filters;
Power Supply   EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified
Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply;
-
Solid State Drive  Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive,
AHCI PCIe
Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache,
 P/N MZHPV128HDGM;
Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive
750GB
3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache;


Would suggest going larger on this as it would only be a few dollars
to go to
1 TB and not that much more to go to 2 TB. The sweet spot for hard
drives
IIRC is right around 3 TB (minimum cost per unit storage per dollar)



Good advice and I will likely take it.


Optical Drive  LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4
layers
(128GB), 4MB data buffer;
-
Video Monitor  LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p
1920x1080 IPS
LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub,
 contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic
5M:1),
reader mode, flicker-safe;


Would suggest running 2 of these - - - you'd find yourself wondering
how you
had done without before! (I'm running 4 (24") and wish I had the money
to add
the 5th!)



I envy you for your two big video monitors :)

Maybe if I win the lottery ...


Keyboard   Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black,
DP/N
07N242, 104 keys,
 cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2
STYLE)
connector;


Have you ever considered an ergonomic keyboard?
Love mine and it makes typing fast much easier on the hands!!



I admit the Dell keyboard is absolutely barebones. I like it for the
PS/2 interface, which my Linux research indicates is the most robust
choice for down-and-dirty boot-time issues.

However, I will take your advice and reconsider.

snip


Dialup Modem   US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up
faxmodem
card,
 (PCIe) PCI Express x1;


Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to
verify that
drivers are available!!!



Point wel

Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:49:41 -0400
Giles Orr via talk  wrote:
> 
> My suggestions:
> - build it yourself.  If you're comfortable mucking around inside a
> PC, you already have the skills.  From my first build I think the only
> thing that got somewhat alarming was having to get and apply thermal
> paste to the main processor, and getting the clips on the processor in
> place.  It's a very good way to get to know the PC, and you'll do a
> better build than any paid tech because it's _yours_.
> - if you really need the dial-up modem, install it (although I suspect
> Linux support is poor - check it thoroughly).  Otherwise, don't bother
> with it.
> - you didn't mention a video card.  If the motherboard has one onboard
> and you're planning to use that, the power supply sounds like overkill
> (even given the later addition of SCSI stuff ... which I'd suggest
> avoiding if you can, it's another justifiably dying breed like the
> modem).  Buy a smaller capacity (500W?) and better power supply ...
> although I admit I'm going on years-old memories, EVGA wasn't one of
> the best suppliers "back in the day".  Something for you to research a
> bit more perhaps.
> - BluRay support on Linux is ... limited.  You can probably use it for
> backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies.  You
> might use it under Windows.
> - go with 16G of memory if you can afford it: it's not critical, but
> you'll probably enjoy it - and it will help a lot with running VMs.
> But it's also the easiest thing to upgrade later.

Giles,

   I have a BluRay burner here.  It did not play my Game of Thrones BluRay 
disk.  It does an excellent job of backups.  The BluRay disks are cheap.  When 
I replaced my motherboard, the new AMD processor had the thermal paste on it.  
I just installed the thing as per the instructions.  

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
howard.gib...@teledyneoptech.com 
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Mon 25 Jul 2016 18:15 -0400, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
> Sent from mobile.

What model?

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Loui Chang via talk]

On Mon 25 Jul 2016 16:07 -0400, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:36AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
> > > Dialup Modem   US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up 
> > > faxmodem
> > > card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
> > 
> > Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to
> > verify that drivers are available!!!
> 
> They are not, and most likely never will be.

Perhaps for a modest price?
http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Peter Hiscocks via talk]

>> * A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*.
>> I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*.
>>
>> If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy
>> selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive
>> in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this.
>>
>>  Stewart
>>
>> *: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle,
>> can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks
>> looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time.

I visited A1 surplus some months ago and they sure have a lot of stuff, I
didn't see anything very exciting. It struck me as a bit pricey, too.

Above All however has some useful stuff.

P.



-- 
Peter Hiscocks
Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto
http://www.syscompdesign.com
USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator
647-839-0325

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

> * Above All surplus on Bloor near Euclid (Steve has some very
> vintage/niche bits indeed. His phone is disconnected, so don't try
calling)

Thanks, thats good to know. I had tried calling and assumed they had closed.

This was my goto place for refurbished 20/30/40mb Fujitsu drives. Fujitsu
had a lot of those drives returned because FAT systems reported too many
bad sectors. I never had a problem using ext on Linux systems, they
reported the correct sizes and worked fine.

In the 90's I use to overclock old boards and would toast stuff regularly.
I was always dashing in and asking for some odd widget. Often they had it,
or a reasonable facsimile.

>
> * A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*.
> I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*.
>
> If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy
> selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive
> in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this.
>
>  Stewart
>
> *: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle,
> can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks
> looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time.

>
> cheers,
>  Stewart
> ---
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Sent from mobile.
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2016-07-25 03:34 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
> 
> active surplus …
> 
> I have yet to find another place with such a comprehensive stock of the
> little odds and ends someone night need.

True enough, but Graham (the former manager of Active Surplus) plus the
skilled facilitators of Little Dada are trying to find space for a
relaunch. More details here: OGP ("Operation Gorilla Phoenix")
Electronics & Surplus 

Other places that might have the little bits like standoffs:

* the elecronics place in the basement of the College Home Hardware,
near Spadina

* Above All surplus on Bloor near Euclid (Steve has some very
vintage/niche bits indeed. His phone is disconnected, so don't try calling)

* A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*.
I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*.

If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy
selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive
in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this.

 Stewart

*: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle,
can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks
looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time.

cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:36AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
> > Dialup Modem   US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem
> > card,
> >  (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
> 
> Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to
> verify that
> drivers are available!!!

They are not, and most likely never will be.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Jul 25, 2016 10:50 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
wrote:
>
> Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
>
> Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
>
> BACKGROUND --  BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
>

I usually have a couple of pieces of advise for home builds and integration.

Unfortunately the first piece is no longer relevant.  That was was go to
active surplus and purchase a variety of items. Board standoffs, plastic
washers and odd screws and ties. However they have closed both locations
and it doesn't look like there is a comeback in the works.

I have yet to find another place with such a comprehensive stock of the
little odds and ends someone night need.

The other is to have a build buddy, someone to bounce things around with
when there is an unexpected problem.

I do have this suggestion tho. Make friends with Hacklab.

I haven't visited the facility so I don't know if they have storage for a
build which may last longer than one day.

Also I have no idea of the fee structure to use the space, but there are
others on the list with more in-depth knowledge than I.

Scott Sullivan perhaps?

HTH
Russell


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Giles Orr via talk]

On 25 July 2016 at 12:18, o1bigtenor  wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Giles Orr via talk  wrote:
>> On 25 July 2016 at 10:47, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk  
>> wrote:
>> - BluRay support on Linux is ... limited.  You can probably use it for
>> backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies.  You
>> might use it under Windows.
>
> Well - - - I've never tried to watch a movie I just use mine for burning and
> reading CD roms, DVD roms and Blueray roms so there is some support!

My assumption (perhaps incorrect) is that most people see "BluRay" and
think "I can play movies."  I should perhaps have been clearer: BluRay
support in Linux appears to be pretty good so long as you're not
dealing with DRM, at which point it becomes pretty much non-existent.

-- 
Giles
http://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Giles Orr via talk]

On 25 July 2016 at 10:47, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk  wrote:
> Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
>
> Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
>
> BACKGROUND --  BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
>
> I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting
> Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM
> vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows
> 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use.  I definitely am NOT
> going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
>
> I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application
> programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses,
> getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM
> virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a
> "retired" software engineer).
>
> On 7 January 2016 I sent an inquiry email to h...@gtalug.org and Myles
> Braithwaite responded instantly with helpfull suggestions for which I was
> very grateful. Myles also encouraged to join the talk@gtalug.org mailing
> list and so now here I am.
>
> I'm looking for advice from GTALUG members on two issues:
>
> 1. Comments on my proposed PC configuration. I have already researched
> components and developed a detailed hardware configuration for the new PC.
> Please see below. This configuration is not yet published on
> ca.partpicker.com.
>
> 2. Advice on how to get the PC built from components, that I will purchase
> retail and supply to the builder. Here, one option I propose is for a
> "creative" solution from GTALUG (see point 3, next section).
>
> * * *
> * * *
>
> HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?
>
> It seems to me that there are three approaches I could take, to get this new
> PC built:
>
> 1. BUILD IT MYSELF. I can handle purchasing all the components. However,
> although I am comfortable messing around inside the case of a computer, I've
> never build one from components. I would prefer to have the PC assembled by
> more experienced hands that have the skills and use of the right tools. So
> building myself is a last resort.
>
> 2. USE A COMMERCIAL PC SYSTEM BUILDER. Any suggestions from mailing list
> participants, on commercial PC builders would be gratefully received.
> However, I do not want to have to deal with import hassles, so the builder
> must be operating in Canada.(preferably in the GTA)
>
> Problem: It seems it will be difficult to interest commercial PC bulders in
> Canada to supply a competitively-priced PC configured with Linux. So if I
> use a commercial builder, the plan would be to get the PC built and
> delivered with with Windows 7 only installed, but have a multi-boot setup.
> After I get the PC I will install Debian 8 Linux as the primary host
> operating system, and then install Win 7 to run under QEMU / KVM
> virtualization under Debian.
>
> 3. *** CREATIVE IDEA FOR GTALUG *** Perhaps there is a member (or members)
> of GTALUG who would be able to build the PC from comnponents I supply.
> Naturally I would be happy to pay a fee for this service Or (and this would
> be my preference) perhaps GTALUG would be interested in taking on the buuild
> project as a club project. I expect I would be much more happy to pay money
> to GTALUG for helping with the build, and to get the pleasure of working
> with GTALUG, than I would be paying and dealing with a commercial builder.
> Since I live in Oakville in a small apartment, it would make more sense for
> the build to happen in Toronto.
>
> From my casual research, there are many Win XP "orphans" like me out  there.
> Not only older-type people stuck on Win XP and wondering what to do before
> their old PC dies. But also there are plenty of small  businesses still
> running XP (in fact there are probably more small business XP  users left,
> than consumer XP users).
>
> You could consider me in a sense, a "poster senior" for a class of people,
> among whom some could possibly go the Linux route as they migrate away from
> Win XP. If only these poster seniors (or small business Win XP "orphans")
> had a helping hand from e.g. GTALUG. For example, run a kind of GTALUG
> "clinic" that Win XP "orphans" could come to (for a fee) and there work with
> GTALUG members to get their Linux PC built. And later get their data (e.g.
> emails) converted over to e.g. Thunderbird.
>
> Just a thought,  for a way that GTALUG could get more involved with the
> wider community. And perhaps also pull in some club revenue to support
> GTALUG initiatives. Perhsps this is an idea the GTALUG Board could consider.
> I am happy to discuss the idea of being the "guinea pig" for such a project.
>
> * * *
> * * *
>
> PROPOSED PC CONFIGURATION
>
> Thsi is decidedly NOT a gamer's PC. It is intended to be an ultra-reliable,
> powerful, fast professional / small business workstation . There is no
> overclocking.