Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

Right to Repair article
https://www.wired.com/story/right-to-repair-tenants-on-our-own-devices/

On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 18:57, James Knott via talk  wrote:

> I guess they also have to protect experienced repair techs from hurting
> themselves.  =-O
>
> On 05/03/2019 03:19 PM, Ansar Mohammed via talk wrote:
> > Officially dead after Industry groups including Apple lobbied saying
> > that consumers can hurt themselves doing repairs.
> >
> >
> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kxayy/right-to-repair-bill-killed-after-big-tech-lobbying-in-ontario?fbclid=IwAR1z8KUIq-CH1y9J_-kRqkyhd9c66EXlVsHrObCPazQDvShN9n29X6eDzvo
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 11:36 AM Don Tai via talk  > > wrote:
> >
> > I drilled out the rivets. Non-replaceable fuse was good, but the
> > on-off timer switch was flakey, and probably not replaceable. I
> > just scrapped a $250 convection oven due to an on-off switch. I am
> > sad.
> >
> > On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 11:31, mwilson--- via talk  > > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:59 AM Don Tai via talk
> > mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi
> > EO1270, made in
> > >> China, came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused,
> > but did not
> > [ ... ]
> > > I would suggest that pop rivets are quite cheap and I'd
> > doubt you
> > > actually 'need' six to hold a tiny little board.
> >
> > or sheet metal screws, if you find there's room on the inside.
> >
> > ---
> > Talk Mailing List
> > talk@gtalug.org 
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > ---
> > Talk Mailing List
> > talk@gtalug.org 
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[James Knott via talk]

I guess they also have to protect experienced repair techs from hurting
themselves.  =-O

On 05/03/2019 03:19 PM, Ansar Mohammed via talk wrote:
> Officially dead after Industry groups including Apple lobbied saying
> that consumers can hurt themselves doing repairs.
>
> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kxayy/right-to-repair-bill-killed-after-big-tech-lobbying-in-ontario?fbclid=IwAR1z8KUIq-CH1y9J_-kRqkyhd9c66EXlVsHrObCPazQDvShN9n29X6eDzvo
>  
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 11:36 AM Don Tai via talk  > wrote:
>
> I drilled out the rivets. Non-replaceable fuse was good, but the
> on-off timer switch was flakey, and probably not replaceable. I
> just scrapped a $250 convection oven due to an on-off switch. I am
> sad.
>
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 11:31, mwilson--- via talk  > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:59 AM Don Tai via talk
> mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi
> EO1270, made in
> >> China, came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused,
> but did not
> [ ... ]
> > I would suggest that pop rivets are quite cheap and I'd
> doubt you
> > actually 'need' six to hold a tiny little board.
>
> or sheet metal screws, if you find there's room on the inside.
>
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> ---
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Ansar Mohammed via talk]

Officially dead after Industry groups including Apple lobbied saying that
consumers can hurt themselves doing repairs.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/9kxayy/right-to-repair-bill-killed-after-big-tech-lobbying-in-ontario?fbclid=IwAR1z8KUIq-CH1y9J_-kRqkyhd9c66EXlVsHrObCPazQDvShN9n29X6eDzvo



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 11:36 AM Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> I drilled out the rivets. Non-replaceable fuse was good, but the on-off
> timer switch was flakey, and probably not replaceable. I just scrapped a
> $250 convection oven due to an on-off switch. I am sad.
>
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 11:31, mwilson--- via talk  wrote:
>
>> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:59 AM Don Tai via talk 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi EO1270, made in
>> >> China, came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused, but did not
>> [ ... ]
>> > I would suggest that pop rivets are quite cheap and I'd doubt you
>> > actually 'need' six to hold a tiny little board.
>>
>> or sheet metal screws, if you find there's room on the inside.
>>
>> ---
>> Talk Mailing List
>> talk@gtalug.org
>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

I drilled out the rivets. Non-replaceable fuse was good, but the on-off
timer switch was flakey, and probably not replaceable. I just scrapped a
$250 convection oven due to an on-off switch. I am sad.

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 11:31, mwilson--- via talk  wrote:

> > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:59 AM Don Tai via talk 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi EO1270, made in
> >> China, came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused, but did not
> [ ... ]
> > I would suggest that pop rivets are quite cheap and I'd doubt you
> > actually 'need' six to hold a tiny little board.
>
> or sheet metal screws, if you find there's room on the inside.
>
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[mwilson--- via talk]

> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:59 AM Don Tai via talk  wrote:
>>
>> A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi EO1270, made in
>> China, came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused, but did not
[ ... ]
> I would suggest that pop rivets are quite cheap and I'd doubt you
> actually 'need' six to hold a tiny little board.

or sheet metal screws, if you find there's room on the inside.

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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 9:59 AM Don Tai via talk  wrote:
>
> A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi EO1270, made in China, 
> came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused, but did not work. 
> https://www.amazon.ca/DeLonghi-EO1270-6-Slice-Convection-Toaster/dp/B003ZDNKV0
>
> I started taking it apart to troubleshoot. The electronics are on the left 
> side, while most of carcass is, well, oven.
>
> Lo and behold, the panels covering the electronics are held together by 6 
> rivets, making it extremely difficult to even get to the electronics. Even if 
> I drill out the rivets, reassembly would be a problem. I learn a lot from 
> taking stuff apart. Today I learned to never buy a Delonghi, because you're 
> probably throwing your money away. From the outside the convection oven looks 
> nice, but unrepairable. This oven is a waste of natural resources, and money. 
> Someone got cheated.
>
> Buy better quality, repairable, something that will last a long time.
>

Agreed (with your conclusion).

I would suggest that pop rivets are quite cheap and I'd doubt you
actually 'need' six to hold a tiny little board.
I'd drill away and then you could really see how cheap the oven is.
Likely its one capacitor that's crapped out and so you land up
throwing out a $250 item for something that even in decent quality can
be bought for well under $0.05 (if you buy a few of them).

You see - - -this way the factory sells another item, the freight
companies all get their cut and the wholesaler gets another bump and
the retailer likely not only sells you another oven but some other
'junk' at the same time.
See- - - - everyone is winning - - - - - except you.

Somehow too much of business hasn't figured out that the goose that
lays the golden eggs is about tapped out.

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

A seemingly brand new small convection oven, Delonghi EO1270, made in
China, came my way. Pristine clean and obviously unused, but did not work.
https://www.amazon.ca/DeLonghi-EO1270-6-Slice-Convection-Toaster/dp/B003ZDNKV0

I started taking it apart to troubleshoot. The electronics are on the left
side, while most of carcass is, well, oven.

Lo and behold, the panels covering the electronics are held together by 6
rivets, making it extremely difficult to even get to the electronics. Even
if I drill out the rivets, reassembly would be a problem. I learn a lot
from taking stuff apart. Today I learned to never buy a Delonghi, because
you're probably throwing your money away. From the outside the convection
oven looks nice, but unrepairable. This oven is a waste of natural
resources, and money. Someone got cheated.

Buy better quality, repairable, something that will last a long time.

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 at 14:26, Paul King via talk  wrote:

> Also, learning how to navigate new interfaces when the ones on our old
> equipment posed no problem. Or knowing all the workarounds of our old
> equipment and being happy with what the old equipment did. If the old
> equipment did everything you wanted it to, there would never be a reason to
> buy new, regardless of "advancements". This would be a major motivation (to
> me at least) for repairing old equipment.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: talk  On Behalf Of Stewart C. Russell
> via talk
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 8:51 AM
> > To: talk@gtalug.org
> > Cc: Stewart C. Russell 
> > Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"
> >
> > On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
> > >
> > > One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that
> > > you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to
> > > snap together.
> >
> > Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service manual to
> see
> > where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and you'll break a
> snap,
> > ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So /design for manufacture/
> can
> > be counter to /design for repair/.
> >
> > The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
> manufacture/
> > computers. It required the dealer-only "case cracker" tool
> > - a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
> > https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that told the story
> > that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous computers
> > invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off without tools.
> >
> > Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general
> reaction
> > on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software configs to
> keep it
> > running against all odds, but hardware gets short shrift. I know that
> > processing power and storage improvements have made it poor business
> > practice to get sentimental about keeping older computers running, but
> > some curiosity over how repair and replace is a good thing. We can't
> live on a
> > growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
> >
> >  Stewart
> >
> > *: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal voltages
> for the
> > unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the right thing keeping
> Users
> > out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with only the usual warnings
> and
> > mounting screws. One example would be the Commodore SX-64, a device
> > clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64 appears to be a random
> collection
> > of boards held together by ... another random collection of boards and
> little
> > else.
> > ---
> > Talk Mailing List
> > talk@gtalug.org
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Paul King via talk]

Also, learning how to navigate new interfaces when the ones on our old 
equipment posed no problem. Or knowing all the workarounds of our old equipment 
and being happy with what the old equipment did. If the old equipment did 
everything you wanted it to, there would never be a reason to buy new, 
regardless of "advancements". This would be a major motivation (to me at least) 
for repairing old equipment.

> -Original Message-
> From: talk  On Behalf Of Stewart C. Russell via talk
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 8:51 AM
> To: talk@gtalug.org
> Cc: Stewart C. Russell 
> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"
> 
> On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
> >
> > One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that
> > you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to
> > snap together.
> 
> Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service manual to see
> where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and you'll break a snap,
> ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So /design for manufacture/ can
> be counter to /design for repair/.
> 
> The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for manufacture/
> computers. It required the dealer-only "case cracker" tool
> - a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that told the story
> that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous computers
> invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off without tools.
> 
> Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general 
> reaction
> on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software configs to keep it
> running against all odds, but hardware gets short shrift. I know that
> processing power and storage improvements have made it poor business
> practice to get sentimental about keeping older computers running, but
> some curiosity over how repair and replace is a good thing. We can't live on a
> growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
> 
>  Stewart
> 
> *: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal voltages for the
> unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the right thing keeping Users
> out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with only the usual warnings and
> mounting screws. One example would be the Commodore SX-64, a device
> clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64 appears to be a random collection
> of boards held together by ... another random collection of boards and little
> else.
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Paul King via talk]

I think that it has been made into a frinige, hippie thing because large 
companies like Apple have seen to it that it be pushed out of our 
consciousness. The only "hippie thing" we really need involves 
"consciousness-raising" - noticing that these things are being done, and is 
part of the reason that Apple had a recent valuation in the trillions of 
dollars a couple of months ago.

Again, don't just blame Apple. I had the same problem one time years ago when I 
tried to replace a rocker switch on a desk lamp I liked. The desk lamp was no 
longer in stock, and all the clerk wanted me to do is replace it with a new 
one. This was at Home Depot, of all places, and they don't have rocker switches 
of the size I needed. I lived in Oakville at the time, and had to drive to 
Burlington to find the right rocker switch to turn my lamp on and off. After 
fixing it, it worked nicely for another 10 years after that (structural damage 
to the head of the lamp did it in - I can't remember the cause). I didn't 
regret going to the trouble in finding the switch, but store clerks did look at 
me kind of funny, except for the guy in an electronics supply shop who sold me 
the two-dollar rocker switch.

Paul

> -Original Message-
> From: talk  On Behalf Of Lennart Sorensen via talk
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 12:24 PM
> To: Don Tai via talk 
> Cc: Lennart Sorensen ; D. Hugh Redelmeier
> 
> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"
> 
> On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 07:16:52PM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> > who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides
> > myself that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a
> > multimeter. Or sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.
> 
> Is that because no one wants to or because no one can anymore?
> 
> --
> Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Paul King via talk]

I don't think that is the point. The point is that third-party repair shops be 
allowed to do their jobs without getting sued by places like Apple. 

> -Original Message-
> From: talk  On Behalf Of Alvin Starr via talk
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 1:11 PM
> To: talk@gtalug.org
> Cc: Alvin Starr 
> Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"
> 
> A while back I took my ASUS phone to ASUS to see about repair.
> 
> Repairing the phone was going to cost me about 2/3 the cost of a new ASUS
> phone.
> 
> Not like the repair of a 20,000 car where the repair cost runs from a few
> hundred to a few thousand.
> 
> I think the right of repair is a good idea but I am not sure now many highly
> integrated products are amenable to cost effective repair.
> 
> On 3/5/19 12:23 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 07:16:52PM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> >> who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides
> >> myself that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a
> >> multimeter. Or sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.
> > Is that because no one wants to or because no one can anymore?
> >
> --
> Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
> Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
> al...@netvel.net  ||
> 
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 12:12 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk, 
wrote:

> | From: Don Tai via talk 
> |
> | A different view from the fashion industry. Instead of making more throw
> | away products, make less but better quality products. It seems very old
> | school, and much less wasteful. Not quite the right to repair, but along
> | the same philosophical line.
> |
> |
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90311509/we-have-to-fix-fashion-if-we-want-to-survive-the-next-century
>
> Interesting.  I think that some of this is exagerated but I'm on-side.
>
> Just like electronics got radically cheaper (orders of magnitude) in
> my lifetime, the cost of clothing has gotten radically cheaper in the
> last three centuries.
>
> I just read:
> 
>
> The cost of a woollen broadcloth (about 27 meters long) in this period
> (say 1500) was about the same as a master mason's annual wage.
>
> The processes of building garments was complex and labour-intensive.
> There are many steps that most people don't know.  Ever heard of
> carding?  Fulling?  Mordants?
>
> Clothes were inherited.
>
> Worn-out linen was prized for making paper.  There was an occupation
> "rag picker".  You can see paintings of rag pickers in the current
> exhibition at the AGO "Impressionism in the Age of Industry: Monet,
> Pissarro and more".
>

Up until 2005 or so, until a fire, Toronto had a permanent rag trader on
Queen St. near Niagara. He would buy, sort and sell rags. This was a go to
location for painters and wood workers where you could get a big bag of
lower quality cleaning rags for a couple of dollars. If you were into fancy
wood finishes ie. french polishing with linseed oil and turpentine, he
would sell you a few linen or cotton rags but he kept the bulk of those for
artisan paper makers and he apparently shipped those world wide.

>
> Prices started to go down (I think) with the introduction of machines
> like the carding machines, spinning jenny, power looms, cotton gin,
> etc.  Here's a timeline that I found after typing that:
>
> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_clothing_and_textiles_technology
> >
>
> This automation eliminated the "need" for slaves in cotton production.
> If I remember correctly, picking the cotton and separating the staple
> from the seeds was very labour-intensive.
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Don Tai via talk 
| 
| A different view from the fashion industry. Instead of making more throw
| away products, make less but better quality products. It seems very old
| school, and much less wasteful. Not quite the right to repair, but along
| the same philosophical line.
| 
| 
https://www.fastcompany.com/90311509/we-have-to-fix-fashion-if-we-want-to-survive-the-next-century

Interesting.  I think that some of this is exagerated but I'm on-side.

Just like electronics got radically cheaper (orders of magnitude) in
my lifetime, the cost of clothing has gotten radically cheaper in the
last three centuries.

I just read:


The cost of a woollen broadcloth (about 27 meters long) in this period
(say 1500) was about the same as a master mason's annual wage.

The processes of building garments was complex and labour-intensive.
There are many steps that most people don't know.  Ever heard of
carding?  Fulling?  Mordants?

Clothes were inherited.

Worn-out linen was prized for making paper.  There was an occupation
"rag picker".  You can see paintings of rag pickers in the current
exhibition at the AGO "Impressionism in the Age of Industry: Monet,
Pissarro and more".

Prices started to go down (I think) with the introduction of machines
like the carding machines, spinning jenny, power looms, cotton gin,
etc.  Here's a timeline that I found after typing that:



This automation eliminated the "need" for slaves in cotton production.
If I remember correctly, picking the cotton and separating the staple
from the seeds was very labour-intensive.
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

A different view from the fashion industry. Instead of making more throw
away products, make less but better quality products. It seems very old
school, and much less wasteful. Not quite the right to repair, but along
the same philosophical line.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90311509/we-have-to-fix-fashion-if-we-want-to-survive-the-next-century

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 at 14:55, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: James Knott via talk 
>
> | My notebook is a Lenovo ThinkPad E520, which I bought 7.5 years ago.
> | It's still going strong, though I put in a larger hard drive.  I've had
> | a thing for ThinkPads ever since I worked at IBM in the late 90s and
> | most of my work was on them.
>
> I like ThinkPads.  But the E520 is heavy and burns a lot of power.
>
> My (adult) kids have T520s.  But both kids rarely use them
> because ultrabooks are so much more portable.
>
> | I bought my desktop computer about 13 years ago, but have upgraded the
> | mom board a couple of times and also disk drives.
>
> That's a long time.
>
> If you replaced the motherboard, I would guess you replaced the
> processor and RAM at the same time.
>
> What's left?
>
> - the case (worth ~$50)
>
> - perhaps the power supply (but then you won't be able to support
>   modern video cards)
>
> - video card (if any): current CPU's built-in GPUs would probably beat
>   it.
>
> - the floppy disk (I don't remember the last time I used one).
>   I have an external drive if I need to use a floppy.
>
> - the CD or DVD writer.  I don't use them that often.  I used one last
>   month to create a bootable Fedora live install DVD because of a
>   firmware limitation with a netbook.  Booting the netbook required an
>   external DVD reader.
>
> I'd just get a new box and leave the old one functioning as long as I
> had a use and space.  (Is it any wonder that I need KVMs?)---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: James Knott via talk 

| My notebook is a Lenovo ThinkPad E520, which I bought 7.5 years ago. 
| It's still going strong, though I put in a larger hard drive.  I've had
| a thing for ThinkPads ever since I worked at IBM in the late 90s and
| most of my work was on them.

I like ThinkPads.  But the E520 is heavy and burns a lot of power.

My (adult) kids have T520s.  But both kids rarely use them
because ultrabooks are so much more portable.

| I bought my desktop computer about 13 years ago, but have upgraded the
| mom board a couple of times and also disk drives.

That's a long time.

If you replaced the motherboard, I would guess you replaced the
processor and RAM at the same time.

What's left?

- the case (worth ~$50)

- perhaps the power supply (but then you won't be able to support
  modern video cards)

- video card (if any): current CPU's built-in GPUs would probably beat
  it.

- the floppy disk (I don't remember the last time I used one).
  I have an external drive if I need to use a floppy.

- the CD or DVD writer.  I don't use them that often.  I used one last
  month to create a bootable Fedora live install DVD because of a
  firmware limitation with a netbook.  Booting the netbook required an
  external DVD reader.

I'd just get a new box and leave the old one functioning as long as I
had a use and space.  (Is it any wonder that I need KVMs?)---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-03-08 12:36 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> My current main notebook is just over 5 years old and still great.  I
> haven't had to repair it -- thank goodness, since it is an
> Ultrabook(TM).  This is partly because, knowing that upgrades would be
> very hard, I pushed all the specs when I bought it.

My notebook is a Lenovo ThinkPad E520, which I bought 7.5 years ago. 
It's still going strong, though I put in a larger hard drive.  I've had
a thing for ThinkPads ever since I worked at IBM in the late 90s and
most of my work was on them.

>
> My current main desktop is just a little older.  It's still Just Fine. 
>
> I used to replace my desktop much more quickly.  Or at least want to.

I bought my desktop computer about 13 years ago, but have upgraded the
mom board a couple of times and also disk drives.


---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: James Knott via talk 

| That's a big problem these days, people put price ahead of value. 
| There's an old saying, "You only get what you pay for".  With many
| things, the "savings" are  less than the added cost or lost value.

It depends.

I often buy cheap-ish phones and computers.  That's because you save a
lot of money being a year or two or a tier or two behind the the best.

One can afford to replace the cheap unit more often and actually
then be ahead of the person who has to keep the expensive, better, old
machine.

That worked well when Moore's Law was in full force.

Now, obsolescence takes longer.  This is exactly when the ability to
repair becomes more important.  Perhaps that's why it is being shut
down.

My current main notebook is just over 5 years old and still great.  I
haven't had to repair it -- thank goodness, since it is an
Ultrabook(TM).  This is partly because, knowing that upgrades would be
very hard, I pushed all the specs when I bought it.

My current main desktop is just a little older.  It's still Just Fine.

I used to replace my desktop much more quickly.  Or at least want to.

=

These properties emerge from the properties of a number of components.  In 
other words, the devil is in the details.

- I feel that the 4th generation Intel Core processors ("Haswell") were a 
  big improvement over the ones before but their successors have been only 
  modest improvements.  My desktop and notebook have Haswell processors.

- memory used to be cheap and it used to get cheaper at quite a clip (but 
  in fits and starts).  When I bought these two machines I got them with a 
  lot of RAM for the time.  They still have enough (I'd like more, but I 
  don't need it).  If the RAM market were behaving more normally, my 
  machines would feel pinched.

- Something new that I don't have: NVMe SSDs.  They are a lot faster than 
  the SATA SSDs I have.  I'm not convinced that I'd actually notice.
  (My notebook came with an SSD; I added one to my desktop.)

- USB C / USB 3.x / Thunderbolt / whatever doesn't seem to matter to me 
  yet.

- the number of cores per chip is creeping up.  I don't think that this 
  makes much difference in what I do (my desktop has 4 cores and SMT;
  I don't remember what my notebook has).

- newer processors handle HDMI 2.0 but Haswell DisplayPort can drive 
  UltraHD displays at 60Hz, so that's fine by me.---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-03-08 08:30 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> You buy cheaply and get cheap.

That's a big problem these days, people put price ahead of value. 
There's an old saying, "You only get what you pay for".  With many
things, the "savings" are  less than the added cost or lost value.

---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

Beyond phones and tech is the physical world of appliances, toys, clothing,
shoes and others. While quality has certainly gone down in almost all
categories, they remain largely repairable. Most things still use screws
and not glue. Old appliances are much better made than new ones. Most plans
are on the internet. I once opened up a brand new but non-functional
electric lawn mower, made in China, only to find that the core magnet had
cracked in half at the factory, so they simply glued it back together and
shipped it out.

Clothing continues to be old school, made as it was decades ago, and still
repairable. Repair is the standard route of finding the last open seam as
your entry point into the garment. Parts and supplies continue to be
readily available. You can use fancy machines if you wish, but not always
necessary.  I am very thankful that, with the exception of shoes, no one
has caught onto using glue. Shoe quality has markedly decreased with the
move to China. Heels are now honeycomb and hollow. When they wear through
there is nothing backing them up, the heel fails but is integrated into the
shoe, so you need to buy a new pair of shoes. Maybe shoes are the
smartphones of the clothing industry? An old school shoe would have a solid
heel that you could repair and reinforce.

Repairability in the physical world is still viable, though product quality
has markedly decreased. You buy cheaply and get cheap.

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 23:14, Howard Gibson via talk  wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 08:50:35 -0500
> "Stewart C. Russell via talk"  wrote:
>
> > Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general
> > reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software
> > configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware gets short
> > shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements have made
> > it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
> > computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and replace is a
> > good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
> >
> >  Stewart
>
> Stewart,
>
>I agree, but consider John Deere's business model.  They make their
> money repairing tractors.  If you want something easily repaired, it is
> going to cost more, for a bunch of reasons.  Don't buy the cheapest thing
> on the shelves.
>
>If you need a computer and you don't need it to be portable, you should
> get a desktop.  People have no idea of how easy it is to repair modern
> desktops.  If you can do your own installs and repairs, there is no need
> for your hard drives ever to leave your house.  This makes for good
> security.
>
> --
> Howard Gibson
> hgib...@eol.ca
> jhowardgib...@gmail.com
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
> ---
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>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 08:50:35 -0500
"Stewart C. Russell via talk"  wrote:

> Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general
> reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software
> configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware gets short
> shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements have made
> it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
> computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and replace is a
> good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
> 
>  Stewart

Stewart,

   I agree, but consider John Deere's business model.  They make their money 
repairing tractors.  If you want something easily repaired, it is going to cost 
more, for a bunch of reasons.  Don't buy the cheapest thing on the shelves. 

   If you need a computer and you don't need it to be portable, you should get 
a desktop.  People have no idea of how easy it is to repair modern desktops.  
If you can do your own installs and repairs, there is no need for your hard 
drives ever to leave your house.  This makes for good security.  

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Gary via talk]

Oh.

/gary

On 19-03-07 06:10 PM, David Mason via talk wrote:
No, he dropped out of Reed college - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs


But he was certainly not an engineer (to his credit).

../Dave
On Mar 7, 2019, 5:15 PM -0500, James Knott via talk , 
wrote:

On 03/07/2019 01:20 PM, Gary via talk wrote:

Incidentally, some MBA's such as Steve Jobs, do provide real value,
instead of relying on marketing hype, but sadly, in this age, many 
do not.


Jobs was a MBA?
---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[David Mason via talk]

No, he dropped out of Reed college - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs

But he was certainly not an engineer (to his credit).

../Dave
On Mar 7, 2019, 5:15 PM -0500, James Knott via talk , wrote:
> On 03/07/2019 01:20 PM, Gary via talk wrote:
> > Incidentally, some MBA's such as Steve Jobs, do provide real value,
> > instead of relying on marketing hype, but sadly, in this age, many do not.
>
> Jobs was a MBA?
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[James Knott via talk]

On 03/07/2019 01:20 PM, Gary via talk wrote:
> Incidentally, some MBA's such as Steve Jobs, do provide real value,
> instead of relying on marketing hype, but sadly, in this age, many do not.

Jobs was a MBA?
---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Thu., Mar. 7, 2019, 12:24 Ansar Mohammed via talk, 
wrote:

>
> Please don't confuse this issue with the maker community or "tinkerers".
> This is about empowering 3rd party repair of devices so that manufacturers
> don't continue to gouge you for basic repairs.
>

I understand this, but the Right to Repair movement and the Maker movement
are very closely allied. They're not 100% commutative, but nothing
involving groups of people ever is.

 Stewart

(who still can't quite believe he gets paid to be a maker)

>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Gary via talk]

If you build a desktop and populate it with parts that you choose then 
you have a big advantage as you can replace parts willy nilly, if they 
break down. However, if, instead,  you buy a laptop then you're at the 
mercy of the manufacturer.


Incidentally, some MBA's such as Steve Jobs, do provide real value, 
instead of relying on marketing hype, but sadly, in this age, many do not.


/gary
On 19-03-07 11:53 AM, Gary wrote:

Its planned obsolescence.

At one time many companies were run by engineers; sadly, now the MBA's 
are in charge so "the art of the scam" takes centre stage, which means 
that, rather than providing value, it is better to fool people into 
paying up for something that is of less value than is generally perceived.


/gary

On 19-03-07 11:17 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
It is not advantageous for hardware companies to make devices 
serviceable. A device that is not serviceable can be designed to be 
more cheaply manufactured. Consumers, apart from the geek crowd, 
don't seem to care about repairability when they flip their devices 
every 2-3 years. Batteries are also close to exhausted around the 2-3 
year mark. Gluing together pieces is a really pain in the butt. I 
much prefer screws.


If it broke, I will likely take it apart, if only for fun. You can 
tell a lot about the quality of a manufacturer from the inside of a 
device. I don't think this proposal will go anywhere, but hope that 
it does. Keeping an old laptop or desktop in service has led me to 
Linux, the only OS that is still mildly viable.


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 10:02, Giles Orr via talk > wrote:


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 08:50, Stewart C. Russell via talk
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
>
> One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and
Assembly is that
> you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for
everything to
> snap together.

Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service
manual to
see where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and
you'll
break a snap, ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So
/design
for manufacture/ can be counter to /design for repair/.

The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
manufacture/ computers. It required the dealer-only "case
cracker" tool
- a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that
told the story
that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous
computers
invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off
without tools.

Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by
the general
reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with
software
configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware
gets short
shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements
have made
it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and
replace is a
good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste,
after all.

 Stewart

*: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal
voltages
for the unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the
right thing
keeping Users out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with
only the
usual warnings and mounting screws. One example would be the
Commodore
SX-64, a device clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64
appears to be
a random collection of boards held together by ... another random
collection of boards and little else.


Totally with you on snaps: even with cautious disassembly you're
likely to have breakage by the third time you go into the case. 
Screws are definitely the way to go.  Tedious, yes, but sturdy

and repeatable.

Also totally with you on Right to Repair: I volunteered for
Repair Cafe ( http://repaircafetoronto.ca/ ) for about three
years, and even in that time saw how much harder it was getting
to get inside a standard laptop.

Upgrading RAM used to be a common activity, even on a laptop. 
But now the manufacturers solder RAM to the board (and glue the

case shut even if it's not soldered down).  Yes, this makes the
machine marginally slimmer, but it also makes it totally
non-upgradeable.  Same with hard drives (spinning, SSD, NVMe ...
just give us an access hatch.)

Another major argument in favour of right-to-repair is something
as simple as cleaning dust out of your processor fan.  I think
it's a bit crazy to have to pay the 

Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Gary via talk]

If you build a desktop and populate it with parts that you choose then 
you have a big advantage as you can replace parts willy nilly, if they 
break down. However, if, instead,  you buy a laptop then you're at the 
mercy of the manufacturer.


Incidentally, some MBA's such as Steve Jobs, do provide real value, 
instead of relying on marketing bullshit, but sadly, in this age, many 
do not.


/gary

On 19-03-07 11:53 AM, Gary via talk wrote:

Its planned obsolescence.

At one time many companies were run by engineers; sadly, now the MBA's 
are in charge so "the art of the scam" takes centre stage, which means 
that, rather than providing value, it is better to fool people into 
paying up for something that is of less value than is generally perceived.


/gary

On 19-03-07 11:17 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
It is not advantageous for hardware companies to make devices 
serviceable. A device that is not serviceable can be designed to be 
more cheaply manufactured. Consumers, apart from the geek crowd, 
don't seem to care about repairability when they flip their devices 
every 2-3 years. Batteries are also close to exhausted around the 2-3 
year mark. Gluing together pieces is a really pain in the butt. I 
much prefer screws.


If it broke, I will likely take it apart, if only for fun. You can 
tell a lot about the quality of a manufacturer from the inside of a 
device. I don't think this proposal will go anywhere, but hope that 
it does. Keeping an old laptop or desktop in service has led me to 
Linux, the only OS that is still mildly viable.


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 10:02, Giles Orr via talk > wrote:


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 08:50, Stewart C. Russell via talk
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
>
> One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and
Assembly is that
> you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for
everything to
> snap together.

Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service
manual to
see where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and
you'll
break a snap, ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So
/design
for manufacture/ can be counter to /design for repair/.

The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
manufacture/ computers. It required the dealer-only "case
cracker" tool
- a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that
told the story
that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous
computers
invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off
without tools.

Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by
the general
reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with
software
configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware
gets short
shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements
have made
it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and
replace is a
good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste,
after all.

 Stewart

*: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal
voltages
for the unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the
right thing
keeping Users out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with
only the
usual warnings and mounting screws. One example would be the
Commodore
SX-64, a device clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64
appears to be
a random collection of boards held together by ... another random
collection of boards and little else.


Totally with you on snaps: even with cautious disassembly you're
likely to have breakage by the third time you go into the case. 
Screws are definitely the way to go.  Tedious, yes, but sturdy

and repeatable.

Also totally with you on Right to Repair: I volunteered for
Repair Cafe ( http://repaircafetoronto.ca/ ) for about three
years, and even in that time saw how much harder it was getting
to get inside a standard laptop.

Upgrading RAM used to be a common activity, even on a laptop. 
But now the manufacturers solder RAM to the board (and glue the

case shut even if it's not soldered down).  Yes, this makes the
machine marginally slimmer, but it also makes it totally
non-upgradeable.  Same with hard drives (spinning, SSD, NVMe ...
just give us an access hatch.)

Another major argument in favour of right-to-repair is something
as simple as cleaning dust out of your processor fan.  I think
it's a bit crazy to have to 

Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Ansar Mohammed via talk]

An iPad battery service from Apple is $129 + taxes. When you walk in they
will immediately try to up-sell you to a new iPad.
The mall around the corner from my house has a store that will replace the
battery for around $50.

Please don't confuse this issue with the maker community or "tinkerers".
This is about empowering 3rd party repair of devices so that manufacturers
don't continue to gouge you for basic repairs.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 11:18 AM Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> It is not advantageous for hardware companies to make devices serviceable.
> A device that is not serviceable can be designed to be more cheaply
> manufactured. Consumers, apart from the geek crowd, don't seem to care
> about repairability when they flip their devices every 2-3 years. Batteries
> are also close to exhausted around the 2-3 year mark. Gluing together
> pieces is a really pain in the butt. I much prefer screws.
>
> If it broke, I will likely take it apart, if only for fun. You can tell a
> lot about the quality of a manufacturer from the inside of a device. I
> don't think this proposal will go anywhere, but hope that it does. Keeping
> an old laptop or desktop in service has led me to Linux, the only OS that
> is still mildly viable.
>
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 10:02, Giles Orr via talk  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 08:50, Stewart C. Russell via talk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
>>> >
>>> > One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that
>>> > you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to
>>> > snap together.
>>>
>>> Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service manual to
>>> see where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and you'll
>>> break a snap, ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So /design
>>> for manufacture/ can be counter to /design for repair/.
>>>
>>> The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
>>> manufacture/ computers. It required the dealer-only "case cracker" tool
>>> - a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
>>> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that told the story
>>> that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous computers
>>> invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off without tools.
>>>
>>> Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general
>>> reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software
>>> configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware gets short
>>> shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements have made
>>> it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
>>> computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and replace is a
>>> good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
>>>
>>>  Stewart
>>>
>>> *: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal voltages
>>> for the unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the right thing
>>> keeping Users out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with only the
>>> usual warnings and mounting screws. One example would be the Commodore
>>> SX-64, a device clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64 appears to be
>>> a random collection of boards held together by ... another random
>>> collection of boards and little else.
>>>
>>
>> Totally with you on snaps: even with cautious disassembly you're likely
>> to have breakage by the third time you go into the case.  Screws are
>> definitely the way to go.  Tedious, yes, but sturdy and repeatable.
>>
>> Also totally with you on Right to Repair: I volunteered for Repair Cafe (
>> http://repaircafetoronto.ca/ ) for about three years, and even in that
>> time saw how much harder it was getting to get inside a standard laptop.
>>
>> Upgrading RAM used to be a common activity, even on a laptop.  But now
>> the manufacturers solder RAM to the board (and glue the case shut even if
>> it's not soldered down).  Yes, this makes the machine marginally slimmer,
>> but it also makes it totally non-upgradeable.  Same with hard drives
>> (spinning, SSD, NVMe ... just give us an access hatch.)
>>
>> Another major argument in favour of right-to-repair is something as
>> simple as cleaning dust out of your processor fan.  I think it's a bit
>> crazy to have to pay the manufacturer several hundred dollars to do that
>> for you.  These are all things that used to be simple and still could be,
>> but consumers have been deliberately locked out for a small increase in
>> profits - and to the detriment of the environment.  
>>
>> --
>> Giles
>> https://www.gilesorr.com/
>> giles...@gmail.com
>> ---
>> Talk Mailing List
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>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Gary via talk]

Its planned obsolescence.

At one time many companies were run by engineers; sadly, now the MBA's 
are in charge so "the art of the scam" takes centre stage, which means 
that, rather than providing value, it is better to fool people into 
paying up for something that is of less value than is generally perceived.


/gary

On 19-03-07 11:17 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
It is not advantageous for hardware companies to make devices 
serviceable. A device that is not serviceable can be designed to be 
more cheaply manufactured. Consumers, apart from the geek crowd, don't 
seem to care about repairability when they flip their devices every 
2-3 years. Batteries are also close to exhausted around the 2-3 year 
mark. Gluing together pieces is a really pain in the butt. I much 
prefer screws.


If it broke, I will likely take it apart, if only for fun. You can 
tell a lot about the quality of a manufacturer from the inside of a 
device. I don't think this proposal will go anywhere, but hope that it 
does. Keeping an old laptop or desktop in service has led me to Linux, 
the only OS that is still mildly viable.


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 10:02, Giles Orr via talk > wrote:


On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 08:50, Stewart C. Russell via talk
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
>
> One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and
Assembly is that
> you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for
everything to
> snap together.

Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service
manual to
see where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and
you'll
break a snap, ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So
/design
for manufacture/ can be counter to /design for repair/.

The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
manufacture/ computers. It required the dealer-only "case
cracker" tool
- a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that told
the story
that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous
computers
invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off
without tools.

Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the
general
reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with
software
configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware gets
short
shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements
have made
it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and
replace is a
good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste,
after all.

 Stewart

*: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal
voltages
for the unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the
right thing
keeping Users out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with
only the
usual warnings and mounting screws. One example would be the
Commodore
SX-64, a device clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64
appears to be
a random collection of boards held together by ... another random
collection of boards and little else.


Totally with you on snaps: even with cautious disassembly you're
likely to have breakage by the third time you go into the case. 
Screws are definitely the way to go.  Tedious, yes, but sturdy and

repeatable.

Also totally with you on Right to Repair: I volunteered for Repair
Cafe ( http://repaircafetoronto.ca/ ) for about three years, and
even in that time saw how much harder it was getting to get inside
a standard laptop.

Upgrading RAM used to be a common activity, even on a laptop.  But
now the manufacturers solder RAM to the board (and glue the case
shut even if it's not soldered down).  Yes, this makes the machine
marginally slimmer, but it also makes it totally non-upgradeable. 
Same with hard drives (spinning, SSD, NVMe ... just give us an

access hatch.)

Another major argument in favour of right-to-repair is something
as simple as cleaning dust out of your processor fan.  I think
it's a bit crazy to have to pay the manufacturer several hundred
dollars to do that for you.  These are all things that used to be
simple and still could be, but consumers have been deliberately
locked out for a small increase in profits - and to the detriment
of the environment. 

-- 
Giles

https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com 
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

It is not advantageous for hardware companies to make devices serviceable.
A device that is not serviceable can be designed to be more cheaply
manufactured. Consumers, apart from the geek crowd, don't seem to care
about repairability when they flip their devices every 2-3 years. Batteries
are also close to exhausted around the 2-3 year mark. Gluing together
pieces is a really pain in the butt. I much prefer screws.

If it broke, I will likely take it apart, if only for fun. You can tell a
lot about the quality of a manufacturer from the inside of a device. I
don't think this proposal will go anywhere, but hope that it does. Keeping
an old laptop or desktop in service has led me to Linux, the only OS that
is still mildly viable.

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 10:02, Giles Orr via talk  wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 08:50, Stewart C. Russell via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
>> >
>> > One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that
>> > you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to
>> > snap together.
>>
>> Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service manual to
>> see where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and you'll
>> break a snap, ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So /design
>> for manufacture/ can be counter to /design for repair/.
>>
>> The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
>> manufacture/ computers. It required the dealer-only "case cracker" tool
>> - a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
>> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that told the story
>> that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous computers
>> invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off without tools.
>>
>> Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general
>> reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software
>> configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware gets short
>> shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements have made
>> it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
>> computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and replace is a
>> good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
>>
>>  Stewart
>>
>> *: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal voltages
>> for the unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the right thing
>> keeping Users out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with only the
>> usual warnings and mounting screws. One example would be the Commodore
>> SX-64, a device clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64 appears to be
>> a random collection of boards held together by ... another random
>> collection of boards and little else.
>>
>
> Totally with you on snaps: even with cautious disassembly you're likely to
> have breakage by the third time you go into the case.  Screws are
> definitely the way to go.  Tedious, yes, but sturdy and repeatable.
>
> Also totally with you on Right to Repair: I volunteered for Repair Cafe (
> http://repaircafetoronto.ca/ ) for about three years, and even in that
> time saw how much harder it was getting to get inside a standard laptop.
>
> Upgrading RAM used to be a common activity, even on a laptop.  But now the
> manufacturers solder RAM to the board (and glue the case shut even if it's
> not soldered down).  Yes, this makes the machine marginally slimmer, but it
> also makes it totally non-upgradeable.  Same with hard drives (spinning,
> SSD, NVMe ... just give us an access hatch.)
>
> Another major argument in favour of right-to-repair is something as simple
> as cleaning dust out of your processor fan.  I think it's a bit crazy to
> have to pay the manufacturer several hundred dollars to do that for you.
> These are all things that used to be simple and still could be, but
> consumers have been deliberately locked out for a small increase in profits
> - and to the detriment of the environment.  
>
> --
> Giles
> https://www.gilesorr.com/
> giles...@gmail.com
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Giles Orr via talk]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 08:50, Stewart C. Russell via talk 
wrote:

> On 2019-03-05 10:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
> >
> > One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that
> > you should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to
> > snap together.
>
> Snaps are okay for a short time if you can access the service manual to
> see where they are. Slide the spudger in the wrong place and you'll
> break a snap, ending up with a case that sags in one spot. So /design
> for manufacture/ can be counter to /design for repair/.
>
> The original Apple Macintosh was one of the first /design for
> manufacture/ computers. It required the dealer-only "case cracker" tool
> - a long Torx T15 bit with a spudger lever on the end:
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/118/439 - that told the story
> that Users did not belong inside the case*. Apple's previous computers
> invited you inside - the Apple II's top just lifted off without tools.
>
> Right to Repair is important. I'm slightly disappointed by the general
> reaction on this list. We'll spent lifetimes fiddling with software
> configs to keep it running against all odds, but hardware gets short
> shrift. I know that processing power and storage improvements have made
> it poor business practice to get sentimental about keeping older
> computers running, but some curiosity over how repair and replace is a
> good thing. We can't live on a growing mountain of e-waste, after all.
>
>  Stewart
>
> *: the Macintosh had a CRT inside and thus hilariously fatal voltages
> for the unwary. It could be said Apple were only doing the right thing
> keeping Users out. But other computers had built-in CRTs with only the
> usual warnings and mounting screws. One example would be the Commodore
> SX-64, a device clearly designed for confusion. The SX-64 appears to be
> a random collection of boards held together by ... another random
> collection of boards and little else.
>

Totally with you on snaps: even with cautious disassembly you're likely to
have breakage by the third time you go into the case.  Screws are
definitely the way to go.  Tedious, yes, but sturdy and repeatable.

Also totally with you on Right to Repair: I volunteered for Repair Cafe (
http://repaircafetoronto.ca/ ) for about three years, and even in that time
saw how much harder it was getting to get inside a standard laptop.

Upgrading RAM used to be a common activity, even on a laptop.  But now the
manufacturers solder RAM to the board (and glue the case shut even if it's
not soldered down).  Yes, this makes the machine marginally slimmer, but it
also makes it totally non-upgradeable.  Same with hard drives (spinning,
SSD, NVMe ... just give us an access hatch.)

Another major argument in favour of right-to-repair is something as simple
as cleaning dust out of your processor fan.  I think it's a bit crazy to
have to pay the manufacturer several hundred dollars to do that for you.
These are all things that used to be simple and still could be, but
consumers have been deliberately locked out for a small increase in profits
- and to the detriment of the environment.  

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2019 at 10:04:58PM -0500, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 14:13:58 -0500
> Lennart Sorensen via talk  wrote:
> > Way too many phones are glued together instead of using screws these days.
> > Incredibly annoying given often you can buy a new screen or battery for
> > a decent price, but the work to actually replace it is insane.
> 
> Lennart,
> 
>One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that you 
> should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to snap together. 
>  Glue also is bad since there are workmanship and process control issues.  

Snaps would be an improvement over what many cell phones and tablets do
these days.  They seem to love glue.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 14:13:58 -0500
Lennart Sorensen via talk  wrote:
> Way too many phones are glued together instead of using screws these days.
> Incredibly annoying given often you can buy a new screen or battery for
> a decent price, but the work to actually replace it is insane.

Lennart,

   One of the basic rules of Design For Manufacture and Assembly is that you 
should not use screws.  The preferred way is for everything to snap together.  
Glue also is bad since there are workmanship and process control issues.  

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[James Knott via talk]

On 03/05/2019 12:23 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 07:16:52PM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:
>> who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides myself
>> that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
>> sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.
> Is that because no one wants to or because no one can anymore?
>

I have been a technician for much of my career.  That means I repair
things.  On a personal level, I repaired the circulation pump in my
heating system a few weeks ago.

Now, try replacing a battery on an iPhone and see how "easy" it is.  I
replaced the battery on my Nexus 5 phone, a couple of years ago.  While
I had no problem doing it, an average consumer wouldn't be able to. 
There was also something about some Apple devices that will brick, if
repaired with unauthorized parts.  This is the sort of thing this bill
would stop.


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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2019 at 01:10:30PM -0500, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> A while back I took my ASUS phone to ASUS to see about repair.
> 
> Repairing the phone was going to cost me about 2/3 the cost of a new ASUS
> phone.

Way too many phones are glued together instead of using screws these days.
Incredibly annoying given often you can buy a new screen or battery for
a decent price, but the work to actually replace it is insane.

> Not like the repair of a 20,000 car where the repair cost runs from a few
> hundred to a few thousand.
> 
> I think the right of repair is a good idea but I am not sure now many highly
> integrated products are amenable to cost effective repair.

Well on my thinkpad I can swap out a broken keyboard in under 5 minutes
and a new keyboard costs something like $40.  The hardware maintainance
manual is posted online complete with replacement part numbers.

A macbook pro with a broken keyboard is more like a $500 repair because
the keyboard is part of the top case and the battery is glued to the
top case.  That is stupid.  Keyboards break.  Batteries wear out.
Both should be designed to be replaced in a reasonable way.  And of
course Apple hates anyone that tries to work around that to find a cheap
way to fix it anyhow.

You can probably guess which one I buy.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Alex Volkov (A Valued Subscriber) via talk]

That's another thing that right to repair advocates are talking about.

Devices need to be designed to be repairable, which would make them a 
bit bigger and a bit more expensive and this is the hardest part of 
right to repair advocacy --  where government should force the 
corporations to make devices more repairable.


Apple has been especially bad in the last 5 years or so with their 
laptops -- Every time I contemplate getting one, they get worse.


https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/zmd9a5/tim-cook-to-investors-people-bought-fewer-new-iphones-because-they-repaired-their-old-ones

On 2019-03-05 1:10 p.m., Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

A while back I took my ASUS phone to ASUS to see about repair.

Repairing the phone was going to cost me about 2/3 the cost of a new 
ASUS phone.


Not like the repair of a 20,000 car where the repair cost runs from a 
few hundred to a few thousand.


I think the right of repair is a good idea but I am not sure now many 
highly integrated products are amenable to cost effective repair.


On 3/5/19 12:23 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 07:16:52PM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:
who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides 
myself

that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.

Is that because no one wants to or because no one can anymore?



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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Alvin Starr via talk]

A while back I took my ASUS phone to ASUS to see about repair.

Repairing the phone was going to cost me about 2/3 the cost of a new 
ASUS phone.


Not like the repair of a 20,000 car where the repair cost runs from a 
few hundred to a few thousand.


I think the right of repair is a good idea but I am not sure now many 
highly integrated products are amenable to cost effective repair.


On 3/5/19 12:23 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 07:16:52PM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:

who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides myself
that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.

Is that because no one wants to or because no one can anymore?


--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 07:16:52PM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides myself
> that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
> sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.

Is that because no one wants to or because no one can anymore?

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Scott Allen via talk]

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 7:17 PM Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> who repairs anything these days?
>

"Right to repair" is also (or perhaps, more) targeted towards 3rd party
repair shops, allowing them access to the parts, tools and documents
required to fix your device, giving you the ability to not have to rely on
a factory or authorised repair facility.

-- 
Scott

>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Ansar Mohammed via talk]

IMHO, this is a very important issue that the entire community needs to
stand behind.
Please have a look at the CBC documentary to get an idea of what is at
stake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FImwMpA9ENg



On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 7:29 PM Mauro Souza via talk  wrote:

> Not you, not me, but people do. Like I never ever wrote a kernel module,
> but people did and this very list is thankful for all that people.
>
> John Deere and its customers are on a war, because they buy the gigantic
> machines and have to pay a fortune to JD send a technician, plug in a
> laptop, and go home. They cannot even know what is wrong. People reverse
> engineering the firmware are being sued and fined.
>
> It's not for we to repair, but to someone else.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 21:17 Don Tai via talk  wrote:
>
>> who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides myself
>> that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
>> sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.
>>
>> On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 16:59, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
>>>  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > This is a private member's bill so it is unlikely to pass.
>>> >
>>> > <
>>> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/what-on-earth-newsletter-right-to-repair-styrofoam-1.5037697
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > <
>>> https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-1/bill-72
>>> >
>>> > ---
>>>
>>> Maybe if enough of the bozos were woken up?
>>>
>>> Dee
>>> ---
>>> Talk Mailing List
>>> talk@gtalug.org
>>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>> ---
>> Talk Mailing List
>> talk@gtalug.org
>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Mauro Souza via talk]

Not you, not me, but people do. Like I never ever wrote a kernel module,
but people did and this very list is thankful for all that people.

John Deere and its customers are on a war, because they buy the gigantic
machines and have to pay a fortune to JD send a technician, plug in a
laptop, and go home. They cannot even know what is wrong. People reverse
engineering the firmware are being sued and fined.

It's not for we to repair, but to someone else.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 21:17 Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides myself
> that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
> sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.
>
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 16:59, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > This is a private member's bill so it is unlikely to pass.
>> >
>> > <
>> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/what-on-earth-newsletter-right-to-repair-styrofoam-1.5037697
>> >
>> >
>> > <
>> https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-1/bill-72
>> >
>> > ---
>>
>> Maybe if enough of the bozos were woken up?
>>
>> Dee
>> ---
>> Talk Mailing List
>> talk@gtalug.org
>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[Don Tai via talk]

who repairs anything these days? I don't know anyone else, besides myself
that is curious enough to even open the case. Or use a multimeter. Or
sewing machine. Repair is a fringe, hippie thing now.

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 16:59, o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
>  wrote:
> >
> > This is a private member's bill so it is unlikely to pass.
> >
> > <
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/what-on-earth-newsletter-right-to-repair-styrofoam-1.5037697
> >
> >
> > <
> https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-42/session-1/bill-72
> >
> > ---
>
> Maybe if enough of the bozos were woken up?
>
> Dee
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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Re: [GTALUG] Ontario Bill 72: "Right to Repair"

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
 wrote:
>
> This is a private member's bill so it is unlikely to pass.
>
> 
>
> 
> ---

Maybe if enough of the bozos were woken up?

Dee
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