Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 12:15:50PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> How would it qualify as HDR?  OK: I know, HDR is anything marketeers
> think that they can get away with.

HDR defines a larger range of brightness.  So without HDR your 8bit
values 0 to 255 (well video rather than computers use 16 to 240 would
cover 0 to 120 nits (or 80 if using sRGB).  In HDR 255 (or 240) would be
1 nits instead, so the display would interpret the incoming values
differently as a result.  This is why you would tend to get severe color
bands in 8 bit HDR, since your content from 0 to 120 nits now has to be
covered by a much smaller range of your 8 bit values, due to a lot of
values covering the 120 to 1 nit range.  HDR does use logorithmic
values rather than linear to help a bit, but it really needs 10 or more
bits to get decent gradiants.  Of course no current display can do 1
nits, but the HDR standards seem to be designed with that as the limit in
the future.  Dolby has a screen that can do 4000 nits, but more typical
high end LCD TVs can do 1500 to 2000 nits, with OLED limited to about
800 nits (but due to having true black and individual pixel control,
the contrast is much higher than the LCD).

> I guess dithering can sort-of add a couple of bits.

Yes 8 bit HDR with dithering is supposed to be quite good actually.
I have never tried doing HDR with a computer to my TV.

> My (cheap, old) Seiki SE39UY04 TV is limited to HDMI 1.4.  So at best
> it can do UltraHD at 30Hz, with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.  I don't
> know its LCD technology.

Yeah HDMI 1.4 is certainly a big limitation.  2.0 is much better.

From what I can find, it appears that TV is S-MVA which is supposed to
be similar (but not quite as good) to IPS in viewing angle but have
better black levels.

> So it should be bad.  But for my usage, it seems pretty good.
> 
> - I don't have a lot of dynamic content on my screen, so slow refresh
>   doesn't have a lot of effect.  The mouse cursor movement isn't as
>   smooth as it would be with faster refresh.
> 
> - almost nothing I do exposes the limitations of chroma subsampling.
>   Text is the killer test case but foreground and background for most
>   text differs in luminance (full resolution), not chromanence (reduced
>   resolution).  Some artistic creations have text that renders badly
>   but even then, most artistic creations use quite large text.  In my
>   browsing, I've only encountered this once or twice.

Color text is the biggest problem.  Black or white text generally no
big deal.

> As far as the type of panel, I don't know.  I've googled for the code
> on the panel and get only a few hits, all useless.
> 
> The electronics are sufficiently modular that I wonder if I could
> graft a HDMI 2.0 T-Con board and processor board, to get a better
> system.  I might do it if someone else pioneered.
> 
> Someone else hacked his/her SE39UY04 and discovered that it's running
> Linux and can be modded: 

Neat.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk 

Thanks for this informative message.

| To: D. Hugh Redelmeier , GTALUG Talk 
| 
| On Sat, Jun 01, 2019 at 05:39:15PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| > HDR (High Dynamic Range) means a confusing variety of things,
| > especially after marketing has had at it.  But "normal" computer
| > pixels have 8 bits per colour in each pixel.  HDR often means 10 bits
| > per colour in each pixel.  So if you care about colour, you might want
| > HDR.
| 
| 8bit HDR does exist, but is rarely used since it tends to cause color
| banding.

How would it qualify as HDR?  OK: I know, HDR is anything marketeers
think that they can get away with.

I guess dithering can sort-of add a couple of bits.

| > You also need to worry about chroma subsampling (TVs often do this).
| 
| As long as you have HDMI 2.0 you should be able to use 8bit per channel at
| 4K and 60Hz without chroma subsampling (which ruins the clarity of text).

My (cheap, old) Seiki SE39UY04 TV is limited to HDMI 1.4.  So at best
it can do UltraHD at 30Hz, with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.  I don't
know its LCD technology.

So it should be bad.  But for my usage, it seems pretty good.

- I don't have a lot of dynamic content on my screen, so slow refresh
  doesn't have a lot of effect.  The mouse cursor movement isn't as
  smooth as it would be with faster refresh.

- almost nothing I do exposes the limitations of chroma subsampling.
  Text is the killer test case but foreground and background for most
  text differs in luminance (full resolution), not chromanence (reduced
  resolution).  Some artistic creations have text that renders badly
  but even then, most artistic creations use quite large text.  In my
  browsing, I've only encountered this once or twice.

As far as the type of panel, I don't know.  I've googled for the code
on the panel and get only a few hits, all useless.

The electronics are sufficiently modular that I wonder if I could
graft a HDMI 2.0 T-Con board and processor board, to get a better
system.  I might do it if someone else pioneered.

Someone else hacked his/her SE39UY04 and discovered that it's running
Linux and can be modded: 
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-06-07 11:55 AM, Christopher Browne via talk wrote:
> I own a few shares (and loved getting annual reports back in the Iridium
> project days where the company had a major Space Division), so got some
> notices of things.  I had a few shares of Freescale at one point...
>
> Having share holdings didn't lead to getting all that much knowledge about
> the "spinning" :-(  Your list is more complete than what I was aware of.
>   --
> When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
> question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

He probably would have sold his shares.  ;-)
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Christopher Browne via talk]

On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 10:19, Lennart Sorensen via talk 
wrote:

> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:29:08AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk
> wrote:
> > Something manufactured in China with a "Motorola" brand (owned by
> > Lenovo, an RoC company) may seem like a safer bet than one with a
> > "Umidigi" or "Doogee" brand.  Remember when Motorola was a US company?
> > When they had their own important microprocessors (6800, 68000, etc.)?
>
> I wonder how many pieces Motorola split into.  Microprocessors was split
> off and I think was renamed freescale, then NXP took over.  Qualcomm tried
> to get NXP but was not allowed.  Their cell phones went to Google and
> then Lenovo.  Their enterprise stuff (wifi and logistics management
> devices) went to Zebra, and then they sold the wifi part to Extreme
> Networks.  Plenty of other bits went in who knows what direction.
>

I own a few shares (and loved getting annual reports back in the Iridium
project days where the company had a major Space Division), so got some
notices of things.  I had a few shares of Freescale at one point...

Having share holdings didn't lead to getting all that much knowledge about
the "spinning" :-(  Your list is more complete than what I was aware of.
-- 
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question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Sat, Jun 01, 2019 at 05:39:15PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> HDR (High Dynamic Range) means a confusing variety of things,
> especially after marketing has had at it.  But "normal" computer
> pixels have 8 bits per colour in each pixel.  HDR often means 10 bits
> per colour in each pixel.  So if you care about colour, you might want
> HDR.

8bit HDR does exist, but is rarely used since it tends to cause color
banding.

> You also need to worry about chroma subsampling (TVs often do this).

As long as you have HDMI 2.0 you should be able to use 8bit per channel at
4K and 60Hz without chroma subsampling (which ruins the clarity of text).
Goign to HDR requires either dropping the refresh rate or using chroma
subsampling.  Neither is likely to be that desirable unless you are
just doing photo editing and hence frame rate is less important than
color range or you are doing video in which case chroma subsampling
isn't an issue (it probably isn't a problem for photos either).

> There is some silly divergence.  Off the top of my head:
> 
> - monitors tend to be more expensive than TVs for the same level.
>   Quality improves faster in TVs (model lifetime is short).
>   I'm pretty sure this is a function of the market size.
> 
> - TVs only do HDMI or worse.  Monitors have DisplayPort, which
>   supports higher bandwidth (depending on the state of leapfrogging
>   standards).  Monitors generally support HDMI as well.
> 
> - Older HDMI standards didn't support UltraHDMI well
> 
> - TVs often do chroma subsampling, without being mentioned in the spec
>   sheets.  Monitors do not.

The TV does not do it, the signal sent to it may.  The TV uses whatever
it is sent, but if course what formats it supports varies so the source
device may not have a choice.  A monitor does it too if sent such a
signal.  Connect a bluray player to a monitor and you will get a signal
with chroma subsampling, because that is how video on bluray works.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 01:45:39PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> I'd like to take the opportunity of this thread to ask about the
> suitability of using a TV as a computer monitor.
> Right now I have a dual screen setup with one 24" and one 22". The colour
> doesn't quite match between the two of them and some thick bezels prevent
> useful work with a window that spans both monitors.
> 
> Now, it's possible to replace them with a single 32" widescreen monitor
>  for about $550. For $477 I could get
> what looks to be a top-tier 43" Samsung 4K.
> 
> I am wondering if the lower price is because of greater volumes and
> consumer orientation rather than any inherent quality of the screen. As
> Fathers Day approaches I expect some deals a-coming here.
> 
> How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and just
> plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV to make it
> usable for close viewing?

The terrible viewing angles of VA LCD panels can be a problem when sitting
close since you will potentially be at a very bad angle for the sides of
the screen.  At TV viewing distance that is less of a problem (although
some people, like me, don't use LCD TVs partially for this reason).
So I would think that rules out Samsung for computer use.

A few TVs (mostly some models from LG) use IPS panels which have much
better viewing angles, but less brightness and color volume.

OLED solves the viewing angle problem entirely, but currently minimum
size is 55", and the price is quite a bit higher, and computer use is
generally not recommended due to the potential of causing screen burn in.

So, it's all a matter of what you think is most important.  Certainly I
have found the IPS based computer monitors to be far better than other
types, but I have never tried an LG IPS based TV as a computer screen.
It might actually work well.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:40:05AM -0400, James Knott via talk wrote:
> BTW, a friend bought a Lenovo, not ThinkPad, and it had that horrible
> English/French keyboard, that wasn't compatible with either the original
> English or French keyboards.  She soon returned it for that reason.

The non thinkpads from lenovo are a lot less durable than the thinkpads.

Thinkpads are generally just great, although the *x40 models that removed
the physical buttson for the trackpoint were pretty universally hated.
And a few models recently have had BIOS disasters (switch the graphics
setting to discrete from automatic and the machine is bricked, and this
is the documented recommended setting for Linux users.  So much for
QA testing.)

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:29:08AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Something manufactured in China with a "Motorola" brand (owned by
> Lenovo, an RoC company) may seem like a safer bet than one with a
> "Umidigi" or "Doogee" brand.  Remember when Motorola was a US company?
> When they had their own important microprocessors (6800, 68000, etc.)?

I wonder how many pieces Motorola split into.  Microprocessors was split
off and I think was renamed freescale, then NXP took over.  Qualcomm tried
to get NXP but was not allowed.  Their cell phones went to Google and
then Lenovo.  Their enterprise stuff (wifi and logistics management
devices) went to Zebra, and then they sold the wifi part to Extreme
Networks.  Plenty of other bits went in who knows what direction.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2019-05-31 3:45 p.m., James Knott via talk wrote:
> 
> RCA used to have a picture tube plant in Midland.  It's probably gone
> now.  ;-)

Yup, the little white dot plinked away some time ago. Midland had some
surprising high tech for a while. Leitz had their lens and camera
factory there. I'd heard it was originally to secure a supply of optical
balsam for lens manufacture, but this may not be the case. Some of
Leica's signature lens designs originated in Midland. It's now owned by
Raytheon.
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk 
| Subject: Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

| I'd like to take the opportunity of this thread to ask about the
| suitability of using a TV as a computer monitor.

I've been mentioning this on the mailing list for almost 4 years.

| Right now I have a dual screen setup with one 24" and one 22". The colour
| doesn't quite match between the two of them

Colour is a subtle topic about which I'm not qualified to talk.
I don't think Linux is up to snuff here either.

HDR (High Dynamic Range) means a confusing variety of things,
especially after marketing has had at it.  But "normal" computer
pixels have 8 bits per colour in each pixel.  HDR often means 10 bits
per colour in each pixel.  So if you care about colour, you might want
HDR.

You also need to worry about chroma subsampling (TVs often do this).

| and some thick bezels prevent
| useful work with a window that spans both monitors.

and an UltraHD display has the same number of pixels as four FullHD
monitors, not just two.

A 24" FullHD monitor has the same pixel density as a 48" UltraHD
monitor.

I want to maximize information so I prefer 40" over 32".  If you want
to maximize beauty, 32" might be better.  I don't have experience wih
43" but it might be better for information than 40".

| Now, it's possible to replace them with a single 32" widescreen monitor
| <https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B01BMES072/> for about $550. For $477 I could get
| what looks to be a top-tier 43" Samsung 4K.

Top-tier Samsungs are more than that.
<https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/samsung-43-4k-uhd-hdr-qled-tizen-smart-tv-qn43q60rafxzc/13407245>
That "Quantum Dot" technology might be good -- I've not looked at it.

| I am wondering if the lower price is because of greater volumes and
| consumer orientation rather than any inherent quality of the screen. As
| Fathers Day approaches I expect some deals a-coming here.

There is some silly divergence.  Off the top of my head:

- monitors tend to be more expensive than TVs for the same level.
  Quality improves faster in TVs (model lifetime is short).
  I'm pretty sure this is a function of the market size.

- TVs only do HDMI or worse.  Monitors have DisplayPort, which
  supports higher bandwidth (depending on the state of leapfrogging
  standards).  Monitors generally support HDMI as well.

- Older HDMI standards didn't support UltraHDMI well

- TVs often do chroma subsampling, without being mentioned in the spec
  sheets.  Monitors do not.

- TVs can be annoyingly "smart"

- some monitors have USB hubs (mildly useful)

- some monitors don't support sound (inconvenient)

- viewing angles differ between TV and monitor uses.  So the tradeoffs
  differ.  Also refresh rates, if you are a gamer.

- TVs sometimes do interpolation to make videos smoother.  I wonder if 
  that impairs accuracy.  It seems to increase latency.  You will want to 
  disable some TV processing tricks (not always clearly documented)

| How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and just
| plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV to make it
| usable for close viewing?

It is easy and has been for years.  There are gotchas if some part of
your video chain is a few years older: UltraHD wasn't widely
supported.  At least HDMI 2.0 or DisplayPort 1.2 are needed to support
3840x2160@60Hz.  And then there is HDR.

There is a deal at Costco, ending tomorrow, for a 40" Samsung that might
fit your bill.  Read this thread for some context:

<http://forums.redflagdeals.com/costco-samsung-40-4k-model-40nu7100-369-99-2287167/>

Other deals will surely come up.
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Giles Orr via talk]

On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 13:46, Evan Leibovitch via talk 
wrote:

>
> I'd like to take the opportunity of this thread to ask about the
> suitability of using a TV as a computer monitor.
> Right now I have a dual screen setup with one 24" and one 22". The colour
> doesn't quite match between the two of them and some thick bezels prevent
> useful work with a window that spans both monitors.
>
> Now, it's possible to replace them with a single 32" widescreen monitor
>  for about $550. For $477 I could
> get what looks to be a top-tier 43" Samsung 4K.
>
> I am wondering if the lower price is because of greater volumes and
> consumer orientation rather than any inherent quality of the screen. As
> Fathers Day approaches I expect some deals a-coming here.
>
> How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and just
> plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV to make it
> usable for close viewing?
>

Someone once told me a couple things (colour behaviour, maybe response
time) are different between TVs and monitors - but many people use them
interchangeably without much difficulty.  If you're worried about colour
correction for photography ... a TV is probably not as good as a
"monitor."  But most people don't really notice.

For a while Best Buy sold a 43" 4K monitor (not TV) made by Phillips.  It
was about $500 a year and a half ago, and I jumped on it.  It has some
weird ghosting issues (hard to see, temporary, but can last minutes), but
in every other respect I love it.  Of course it completely dominates my
desk ...  But for the first time in my life I'm not routinely looking for
another monitor to park my next window on.  I don't game, and I seem to
recall its response time probably wouldn't have been great for that.  But I
do all my day-to-day work on it, and occasionally watch movies on it.  It's
great, I recommend the experience.  I would recommend that you go 4K at
that size, not 1920x1080.  Even if your eyesight is poor, higher resolution
gives you more choices and better future-proofing (for almost no increase
in price these days).

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-05-31 03:16 PM, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
> (To go back the the "where are they made?" subtopic, Ontario used to
> be a major source of an element critical to high quality colour CRTs:
> yttrium, I think it was. The uranium mines around Elliot Lake were a
> major source, but now neither is particularly in demand)
>

RCA used to have a picture tube plant in Midland.  It's probably gone
now.  ;-)

Incidentally, it's been years since I've seen a CRT set on sale.  Around
the time I got my first HDTV, 10 years ago, there was a single small CRT
TV on sale at Walmart.  I wonder if they ever sold it.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Chris F.A. Johnson via talk]

On Fri, 31 May 2019, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:


How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and
just plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV
to make it usable for close viewing?


   I use a 49" LG 1080p smart TV for a monitor via HDMI.

   I love it.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Fri., May 31, 2019, 13:46 Evan Leibovitch via talk, 
wrote:

>
Right now I have a dual screen setup with one 24" and one 22". The colour
> doesn't quite match between the two of them
>

Have you tried colour calibrating them?  Different vendors have different
white points, and almost every manufacturer ships with everything set as
blue-white as possible so it'll look brightest in the store. A proper
calibrated monitor looks pink by comparison, but it should be possible to
get each monitor calibrated for seamless colours.

(To go back the the "where are they made?" subtopic, Ontario used to be a
major source of an element critical to high quality colour CRTs: yttrium, I
think it was. The uranium mines around Elliot Lake were a major source, but
now neither is particularly in demand)

 Stewart

>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[David Mason via talk]

I have used a projector for “TV” (Netflix/Youtube) watching for the last 5 
years. It has 2 HDMI ports, and is quite nice. It’s “only” 1080p, but when it’s 
a 90” screen, that’s pretty good. I had a BenQ, but the bulb was always a 
problem, so I recently replaced it with a XGIMI, and it’s awesome!

I occasionally plug the HDMI into my laptop, and that works well too. It claims 
to be 4K (speaking of brands) and it will take a 4096x2160 signal, but the 
underlying display is 1920x1080.

I also have a 39” “RCA” that I bought at Loblaws 5 years ago for $199 (I think. 
it *might* have been as much as $299, but I don’t think so)… The colours aren’t 
perfect (mostly meaning that the range is limited), but it’s our bedroom 
screen, and it works pretty well as a monitor for my laptop, too.

../Dave
On May 31, 2019, 1:50 PM -0400, James Knott via talk , wrote:
> On 2019-05-31 01:45 PM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> > How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and
> > just plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV to
> > make it usable for close viewing?
> >
>
> I have used my TVs on occasion as a monitor and worked fine.  On the
> other hand, my monitor is connected to a Rogers box for watching TV.  As
> for close viewing, that would depend entirely on the TV.  Some are
> better than others.  For example, my new Sharp TV seems to have a
> Sharper (sorry ) image than the old Sharp TV.
>
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-05-31 01:45 PM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
> How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and
> just plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV to
> make it usable for close viewing?
>

I have used my TVs on occasion as a monitor and worked fine.  On the
other hand, my monitor is connected to a Rogers box for watching TV.  As
for close viewing, that would depend entirely on the TV.  Some are
better than others.  For example, my new Sharp TV seems to have a
Sharper (sorry ) image than the old Sharp TV.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

Hi all.

I'd like to take the opportunity of this thread to ask about the
suitability of using a TV as a computer monitor.
Right now I have a dual screen setup with one 24" and one 22". The colour
doesn't quite match between the two of them and some thick bezels prevent
useful work with a window that spans both monitors.

Now, it's possible to replace them with a single 32" widescreen monitor
 for about $550. For $477 I could get
what looks to be a top-tier 43" Samsung 4K.

I am wondering if the lower price is because of greater volumes and
consumer orientation rather than any inherent quality of the screen. As
Fathers Day approaches I expect some deals a-coming here.

How viable Is it to use a TV as monitor, ignore the "smart" crap and just
plug in the HDMI? Are there features or specs needed for a TV to make it
usable for close viewing?

Thanks!

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 

| - sometime companies just exploit the delay between cheapening
|   a product and the marketplace recognizing that effect.
| 
|   [Porche makes SUVs! RCA, Westinghouse, Marantz, ...]

Of course these were pretty off-brand for Porsche too:



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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-05-31 11:29 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> For whatever reason, few RoC companies have brands that are valuable
> in North America.  I'm old enough that I remember that being true of
> Japanese brands.  I think I first heard of Sharp in 1965 on a visit to
> Hong Kong.  In Japan, on that same trip, I first heard of the Japanese car
> brands that became ubiquitous in North America a few years later.
>
> Something manufactured in China with a "Motorola" brand (owned by
> Lenovo, an RoC company) may seem like a safer bet than one with a
> "Umidigi" or "Doogee" brand.  Remember when Motorola was a US company?
> When they had their own important microprocessors (6800, 68000, etc.)?
>
> Too many Chinese products that have interested me have been "fire and
> forget": no support, no updates.  If you look at single-board
> computers (think Raspberry Pi), there are many Chinese competitors
> that are technically superior until you look at these issues.

The first time I recall hearing about Sharp was on a cassette deck I
bought in the early 70s, IIRC.  As for brands, I go with Lenovo
ThinkPads.  This is in part because I used to work for IBM and most of
my work was on ThinkPads, but also the ThinkPad line just seems to be
better quality than the regular Lenovo products.  Also, if it doesn't
have a TrackPoint, I'm not interested.

BTW, a friend bought a Lenovo, not ThinkPad, and it had that horrible
English/French keyboard, that wasn't compatible with either the original
English or French keyboards.  She soon returned it for that reason.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Don Tai via talk 

| I don't think you can get a TV or monitor that is not made in China, but
| someone please tell me I'm wrong.

Sharp had Japanese factories.  They had Mexican factories.  Those are
places that the old TV might have been manufactured.

The more you look at it, the more the question becomes complicated.

China is not the lowest-cost country for manufacturing.  But it does
have the manufacturing networks that don't exist anywhere else in the
world.  And Chinese companies have been moving up the "value chain".
It takes a while for perceptions to catch up to reality.

When we buy products, we cannot afford to do the research to have a
high probability of making the right choice.  We lean on brands.
Companies know this, with a few results:

- most companies try to cultivate a brand identity

  + advertising [GM]

  + high standards [Rolls Royce]

  + niche image [Tesla, Bugatti, Land Rover]

- sometime companies just exploit the delay between cheapening
  a product and the marketplace recognizing that effect.

  [Porche makes SUVs! RCA, Westinghouse, Marantz, ...]

- many companies are at a disadvantage because their brand is unknown
  and therefore not trusted. [HiSense]

For whatever reason, few RoC companies have brands that are valuable
in North America.  I'm old enough that I remember that being true of
Japanese brands.  I think I first heard of Sharp in 1965 on a visit to
Hong Kong.  In Japan, on that same trip, I first heard of the Japanese car
brands that became ubiquitous in North America a few years later.

Something manufactured in China with a "Motorola" brand (owned by
Lenovo, an RoC company) may seem like a safer bet than one with a
"Umidigi" or "Doogee" brand.  Remember when Motorola was a US company?
When they had their own important microprocessors (6800, 68000, etc.)?

Too many Chinese products that have interested me have been "fire and
forget": no support, no updates.  If you look at single-board
computers (think Raspberry Pi), there are many Chinese competitors
that are technically superior until you look at these issues.
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:19:10AM -0400, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> I don't think you can get a TV or monitor that is not made in China, but
> someone please tell me I'm wrong.

Define "made". :)

Certainly as of a couple of years ago, LG OLED TVs were assembled in
Mexico for the north american market, Poland for the european market,
and who knows where (probably China) for the rest of the world.

The panel is made in South Korea, and the other components are made
in China.  So where are they "made"?

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 09:33:49AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> I intend to buy a much better monitor (which might be a TV).  The
> thing is that (1) I'm cheap, and (2) my idea of "much better" is alway
> coming soon but never here.

Isn't that always the problem.

> Sharp is expected to put its high-end 8k TVs on sale in the US this
> fall.  One more reason to wait :-)

I hope they figure out HDMI 2.1 before they do that rather than their
proprietary quad HDMI 2.0 for 8k.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Alex Volkov via talk]

I've seen some screens with 'Made in Mexico' label.


https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/11/30/166180397/why-mexico-is-the-worlds-biggest-exporter-of-flat-screen-tvs

According to this article from 2012 Mexico is the largest exporter of 
flat screen TVs.


Alex.

On 2019-05-31 10:19 a.m., Don Tai via talk wrote:
I don't think you can get a TV or monitor that is not made in China, 
but someone please tell me I'm wrong.


On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 09:54, James Knott via talk > wrote:


On 2019-05-31 09:33 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> So: before 2015, Sharp was an interesting brand.
> Now: it is a low-end brand (often with good value for money).
> Future: who knows.
> But: there have been real improvements technology over that same
time
> period, so a new Sharp TV might be better than an old Sharp TV.
>
> This is another example of how branding can mean something and then
> stop meaning what one thought it did.
>
> Power reduction: interesting.  Standby or operating power?  I wonder
> why?  Fluorescent backlight vs LED?  How old was your old one?
>
> I intend to buy a much better monitor (which might be a TV).  The
> thing is that (1) I'm cheap, and (2) my idea of "much better" is
alway
> coming soon but never here.

My old set was just over 10 years old.  It had fluorescent back
light.
The new set, despite a slightly larger screen, is a bit smaller,
certainly thinner, than the old one.  I agree about what's
happening to
the tech companies.  You may see some low end sets from RCA or
Westinghouse.  Of course, those have absolutely nothing to do with the
companies that were behind those names for so many years.  In
fact, RCA
& subsidiary the NBC network, were largely responsible for the
development of the NTSC standard, which was the HDTV of it's day.


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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Don Tai via talk]

I don't think you can get a TV or monitor that is not made in China, but
someone please tell me I'm wrong.

On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 09:54, James Knott via talk  wrote:

> On 2019-05-31 09:33 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> > So: before 2015, Sharp was an interesting brand.
> > Now: it is a low-end brand (often with good value for money).
> > Future: who knows.
> > But: there have been real improvements technology over that same time
> > period, so a new Sharp TV might be better than an old Sharp TV.
> >
> > This is another example of how branding can mean something and then
> > stop meaning what one thought it did.
> >
> > Power reduction: interesting.  Standby or operating power?  I wonder
> > why?  Fluorescent backlight vs LED?  How old was your old one?
> >
> > I intend to buy a much better monitor (which might be a TV).  The
> > thing is that (1) I'm cheap, and (2) my idea of "much better" is alway
> > coming soon but never here.
>
> My old set was just over 10 years old.  It had fluorescent back light.
> The new set, despite a slightly larger screen, is a bit smaller,
> certainly thinner, than the old one.  I agree about what's happening to
> the tech companies.  You may see some low end sets from RCA or
> Westinghouse.  Of course, those have absolutely nothing to do with the
> companies that were behind those names for so many years.  In fact, RCA
> & subsidiary the NBC network, were largely responsible for the
> development of the NTSC standard, which was the HDTV of it's day.
>
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-05-31 09:33 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> So: before 2015, Sharp was an interesting brand.
> Now: it is a low-end brand (often with good value for money).
> Future: who knows.
> But: there have been real improvements technology over that same time
> period, so a new Sharp TV might be better than an old Sharp TV.
>
> This is another example of how branding can mean something and then
> stop meaning what one thought it did.
>
> Power reduction: interesting.  Standby or operating power?  I wonder
> why?  Fluorescent backlight vs LED?  How old was your old one?
>
> I intend to buy a much better monitor (which might be a TV).  The
> thing is that (1) I'm cheap, and (2) my idea of "much better" is alway
> coming soon but never here.

My old set was just over 10 years old.  It had fluorescent back light. 
The new set, despite a slightly larger screen, is a bit smaller,
certainly thinner, than the old one.  I agree about what's happening to
the tech companies.  You may see some low end sets from RCA or
Westinghouse.  Of course, those have absolutely nothing to do with the
companies that were behind those names for so many years.  In fact, RCA
& subsidiary the NBC network, were largely responsible for the
development of the NTSC standard, which was the HDTV of it's day.


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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: James Knott via talk 

| FWIW, I recently took a 42" Sharp TV to the recycling centre.  I bought
| a new 43" Sharp for $349.  That's getting close to what a repair is
| likely to cost.  Much of my career has been in repair, though not TVs. 
| I've often realized it's better to toss & replace, than attempt to
| repair and I have experience in replacing large (over 100 lead) surface
| mount chips.
| 
| Incidentally, my new TV uses about 1/5th the power of the old one, so
| there's that to consider too.

Thanks for the datapoint.  I agree with your point.  I certainly
bow to your experience.  For example, I solder less than once a year
so I'm not very proficient.

Sharp used to be a very good brand for LCD TVs.  They pioneered in
that market.  But they essentially went broke competing with
inexpensive Chinese brands.  Since 2015 the Sharp TV brand was
licensed by HiSense (a state-owned Chinese enterprise) in North
America.  Since 2016, Sharp itself has been owned by Foxconn (a
Taiwan-based group).  In 2017 Sharp (Foxconn) sued Hisense for
damaging the reputation of the brand (since dropped).  Just this month
Sharp re-acquired the brand for TVs in the US (and eventually Canada).

So: before 2015, Sharp was an interesting brand.
Now: it is a low-end brand (often with good value for money).
Future: who knows.
But: there have been real improvements technology over that same time
period, so a new Sharp TV might be better than an old Sharp TV.

This is another example of how branding can mean something and then
stop meaning what one thought it did.

Power reduction: interesting.  Standby or operating power?  I wonder
why?  Fluorescent backlight vs LED?  How old was your old one?

I intend to buy a much better monitor (which might be a TV).  The
thing is that (1) I'm cheap, and (2) my idea of "much better" is alway
coming soon but never here.

Sharp is expected to put its high-end 8k TVs on sale in the US this
fall.  One more reason to wait :-)

(I have several models of Sharp Zaurus PDAs that run Linux.  Too bad
that line died.)---
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[James Knott via talk]

On 2019-05-30 02:09 PM, Clifford Ilkay via talk wrote:
> For the benefit of others, I would highly recommend Rosebud
> Technologies in Markham if you do not have the time, ability, or
> inclination to repair your broken electronics
> yourself. http://www.rosebudtech.ca/
>

FWIW, I recently took a 42" Sharp TV to the recycling centre.  I bought
a new 43" Sharp for $349.  That's getting close to what a repair is
likely to cost.  Much of my career has been in repair, though not TVs. 
I've often realized it's better to toss & replace, than attempt to
repair and I have experience in replacing large (over 100 lead) surface
mount chips.

Incidentally, my new TV uses about 1/5th the power of the old one, so
there's that to consider too.

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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Clifford Ilkay via talk]

For the benefit of others, I would highly recommend Rosebud Technologies in
Markham if you do not have the time, ability, or inclination to repair your
broken electronics yourself. http://www.rosebudtech.ca/

Regards,

Clifford Ilkay

+1 647-778-8696


On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 1:43 PM Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> Congrats. One less monitor in the landfill! I strive to repair all I can.
>
> On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 13:41, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> My 39" UltraHD TV, the one that I used as my main computer monitor for
>> almost four years, stopped working.
>>
>> The symptom was that it just would not turn on.  The status light below
>> the screen stayed red, meaning something like "standby".  Normally it
>> turns blue when I'm using it.
>>
>> Googling and watching YouTube videos convinced me that there was a chance
>> that I could repair it.  LCDs seem to have certain standard PC boards.
>>
>> - T-Con (timing control)
>>
>> - power supply
>>
>> - processor
>>
>> - LED light & video driver
>>
>> Replacement boards are reasonably inexpensive, apparently from chop
>> shops (i.e. they buy broken TVs and sell the working parts).
>>
>> This shows someone fixing my model of TV.
>> 
>>
>> From my research, it seemed as if the most likely problem would involve
>> the power supply module.  I could get one for US$~20 + ~$20 for shipping.
>>
>> I opened up the monitor and examined the entrails.  There was a burnt
>> spot
>> on the power supply board.  I posted my problem to the BadCaps.com forum
>> and got encouragement that a little bit of solder would fix the board.  I
>> tried this, and it worked.  At least for now.  I'm using the monitor to
>> compose this mail.
>>
>> 
>>
>> I spent several hours researching and perhaps an hour disassembling,
>> soldering, and reassembling.  It might not have been worth that time
>> given
>> the value of the monitor ($350 original price, but used for 4 years and
>> obsolete).  I find it satisfying to fix a hardware problem, even though
>> I'm a software guy.
>>
>> Summary: not all hardware problems are hard.
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Re: [GTALUG] war story: fixing an LCD TV

[Don Tai via talk]

Congrats. One less monitor in the landfill! I strive to repair all I can.

On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 13:41, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> My 39" UltraHD TV, the one that I used as my main computer monitor for
> almost four years, stopped working.
>
> The symptom was that it just would not turn on.  The status light below
> the screen stayed red, meaning something like "standby".  Normally it
> turns blue when I'm using it.
>
> Googling and watching YouTube videos convinced me that there was a chance
> that I could repair it.  LCDs seem to have certain standard PC boards.
>
> - T-Con (timing control)
>
> - power supply
>
> - processor
>
> - LED light & video driver
>
> Replacement boards are reasonably inexpensive, apparently from chop
> shops (i.e. they buy broken TVs and sell the working parts).
>
> This shows someone fixing my model of TV.
> 
>
> From my research, it seemed as if the most likely problem would involve
> the power supply module.  I could get one for US$~20 + ~$20 for shipping.
>
> I opened up the monitor and examined the entrails.  There was a burnt spot
> on the power supply board.  I posted my problem to the BadCaps.com forum
> and got encouragement that a little bit of solder would fix the board.  I
> tried this, and it worked.  At least for now.  I'm using the monitor to
> compose this mail.
>
> 
>
> I spent several hours researching and perhaps an hour disassembling,
> soldering, and reassembling.  It might not have been worth that time given
> the value of the monitor ($350 original price, but used for 4 years and
> obsolete).  I find it satisfying to fix a hardware problem, even though
> I'm a software guy.
>
> Summary: not all hardware problems are hard.
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