Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[Colin Smale]

 

...And this may be different to the limit of government jurisdiction. In
the UK, local authorities' jurisdiction goes (normally) to MLWS (mean
low water - spring tides), which is beyond the MHWS coastline. Why am I
saying this? Please don't use the same way in both the coastline and the
admin boundary, unless you are absolutely sure they coincide by
definition (not by coincidence). 

//colin 

On 2015-05-11 19:39, Malcolm Herring wrote: 

> On 11/05/2015 18:01, pmailkeey . wrote:
> 
>> Where should the coastline be ? HWM, LWM or MW. What about islands that only 
>> appear at low tide !
> 
> The most common definition is mean high water - spring tides (MHWS)
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[Malcolm Herring]

On 11/05/2015 18:01, pmailkeey . wrote:

Where should the coastline be ? HWM, LWM or MW. What about islands that
only appear at low tide !



The most common definition is mean high water - spring tides (MHWS)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[pmailkeey .]

Where should the coastline be ? HWM, LWM or MW. What about islands that
only appear at low tide !

On 11 May 2015 at 17:47, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Monday 11 May 2015, Mike Thompson wrote:
> >
> > I don't have a strong preference for how they are represented
> > (natural=coastline or natural=water), but I believe the mix and
> > incomplete implementation of the two approaches is causing rendering
> > issues.
>
> At least the OSM standard style does not have a problem with having both
> coastline and a water multipolygon - the Caspian Sea, Lake Ladoga and
> Lake Onega also all have multipolygon relations tagged natural=water.
>
> The 'half the lake' relation and missing inner rings of course call for
> trouble.
>
> > I have seen a number of them on the Canadian side.  Regardless of the
> > number, finding and editing all of them is going to be tedious and
> > error prone without a way to query for them. I can probably write
> > something that will operate on the file JOSM downloads that will
> > check to make sure I have fixed them all, but would like to leverage
> > existing code as much as possible.
>
> You probably could save the islands after you tagged them as coastline
> from JOSM (only the islands) and run them through osmcoastline as if
> they were the only land on earth and see if there are any
> errors/warnings.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[pmailkeey .]

On 11 May 2015 at 17:39, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 11 May 2015 at 10:08, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> > Andy Mabbett wrote:
> >> In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would
> >> have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on
> >> the user's talk page
> >
> > No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in
> > OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though
> the
> > mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on
> > community decisions via wiki talk pages.
>
> In that case: At what point was Xxzme advised of this? Or indeed any
> new user - I certainly never have been.
>
> > Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia.
>
> I don't recall saying that we were (indeed, in another recent
> discussion, I pointed out that we are not).
>
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
>
>
1. If you know they're a wiki user - it seems the wiki is the best place to
deal with the issue. They might not be involved with any mailing list.
2. Do you know that they understand your complaints or is there a 'language
barrier' involved.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 11 May 2015, Mike Thompson wrote:
>
> I don't have a strong preference for how they are represented
> (natural=coastline or natural=water), but I believe the mix and
> incomplete implementation of the two approaches is causing rendering
> issues.

At least the OSM standard style does not have a problem with having both 
coastline and a water multipolygon - the Caspian Sea, Lake Ladoga and 
Lake Onega also all have multipolygon relations tagged natural=water.

The 'half the lake' relation and missing inner rings of course call for 
trouble.

> I have seen a number of them on the Canadian side.  Regardless of the
> number, finding and editing all of them is going to be tedious and
> error prone without a way to query for them. I can probably write
> something that will operate on the file JOSM downloads that will
> check to make sure I have fixed them all, but would like to leverage
> existing code as much as possible.

You probably could save the islands after you tagged them as coastline 
from JOSM (only the islands) and run them through osmcoastline as if 
they were the only land on earth and see if there are any 
errors/warnings.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Andy Mabbett]

On 11 May 2015 at 15:13, Harry Wood  wrote:

> I have now written some justification for the ban, as I see it, on his talk 
> page:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#Blocked_for_3_months

Thank you. I've replied there, since my reply is addressed as much to
Xxzme as you, and there's no certainly that he's yet aware of this
discussion. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Andy Mabbett]

On 11 May 2015 at 10:08, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would
>> have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on
>> the user's talk page
>
> No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in
> OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the
> mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on
> community decisions via wiki talk pages.

In that case: At what point was Xxzme advised of this? Or indeed any
new user - I certainly never have been.

> Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia.

I don't recall saying that we were (indeed, in another recent
discussion, I pointed out that we are not).


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Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Christoph Hormann 
 wrote:

> On Sunday 10 May 2015, Mike Thompson wrote:
> > I am considering an edit involving "natural=coastline" involving the
> > Great Lakes that are shared between the US and Canada.  This has been
> > discussed on the Talk-US and Talk-Ca lists and there have been no
> > objections to date.
>
> As you know the Great Lakes have a right of continuance in being tagged
> as coastline however you should keep in mind that not having a
> multipolygon relation tagged natural=water representing these lakes
> also has disadvantages, and having relations/nodes tagged place=sea or
> place=lake is awkward and you can't really expect geocoders, renderers
> and other programs to make a special case here.
>
I don't have a strong preference for how they are represented
(natural=coastline or natural=water), but I believe the mix and incomplete
implementation of the two approaches is causing rendering issues.



> > Technical advice is welcome, e.g. how to easily find island ways that
> > go clockwise (water on the left)
>
> Yes, that's a tricky one - i don't think there are that many islands not
> yet tagged coastline though.

I have seen a number of them on the Canadian side.  Regardless of the
number, finding and editing all of them is going to be tedious and error
prone without a way to query for them. I can probably write something that
will operate on the file JOSM downloads that will check to make sure I have
fixed them all, but would like to leverage existing code as much as
possible.

>
>

>
> By the way even if the lakes are tagged as coastline tagging the
> US-Canada boundary within the lakes maritime=yes is not correct.
>
Good to know.  There actually appears to be two sets of ways in that area,
one set is part of the Canadian Lake Superior relation, and the other part
of the Canadian and US boundary relations.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Harry Wood]

I have now written some justification for the ban, as I see it, on his talk 
page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Xxzme#Blocked_for_3_months

My plan was to draw together various threads on his talk page and then write 
something like this immediately before banning him. I was in the process of 
doing this, slowly. But Firefishy beat me to it and banned him, largely due to 
calls on this mailing list I guess.

I felt like some kind of evidence building was needed in this case, because (as 
I described at the link above) Xxzme has actually tempered his rudeness 
somewhat. The justification for the ban is not clearly pinned to one particular 
edit or outburst. It's more a case of sheer quantity of dubious edits he has 
been making. I would say that a user's talk page is a great place to draw 
together threads which build up the picture and help us to conclude that the 
user should be banned in a case like this. As it was, we had several different 
people spending a long time chasing around trying to reason with Xxzme and then 
clearing up after his mess. If more people linked to problems off this user's 
talk page, that might have been a smarter way to organise ourselves. I might 
have been more confident to ban him a few weeks earlier without needing to 
investigate so much myself.

Not that a wiki discussion would ever carry the gravitas of a mailing list 
discussion of course :-)

This is all very unusual. Actual wiki contributors (ignoring spammers) have 
only been banned in a handful of cases over the years. On the one hand this 
means it's worth spending a bit of time considering and justifying. On the 
other hand it's nice that we haven't had to get too heavy on process over the 
years. 

Harry


- Original Message -
From: Richard Fairhurst 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, 11 May 2015, 10:08
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would 
> have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on 
> the user's talk page

No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in
OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the
mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on
community decisions via wiki talk pages.

Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia.

Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:39 AM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' <
elena.valha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2015-05-11 at 08:41:48 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> > On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> > > I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon.
> > This is the real problem.
> > While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on
> > the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does
> > prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are
> > places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one?
>
> forcing real looking names does not solve this issue: creating a fake
> account under a name like "John Smith" is just as easy as creating one
> under a nickname, and even less likely to be identified.
>

Plus there's issues with some names I'm personally aware of, such as
Mono (a mononym, her parents were a bit "new age" to say the least).
Leaping Deer (I believe this to be a last name since police uniforms
usually only include that)
Blackbear (the first name of one of my friends, and one that causes him no
end of grief since a lot of places will fill in his middle name as his
first name, assuming that Blackbear is a nickname).

Requiring verification through official documents is going to bring
> a number of logistic and legal problems (and won't stop motivated people
> from using fake documents).



> On the other hand, this tends to give problems to people with unusual
> names,
> who see their real name refused by the system, and prevents people with
> long term pseudonimes to subscribe to the system with the name they
> are actually known as.
>

See also problems with Native American or transgendered populations when
dealing with Facebook, and compare to the furry fandom (whose members often
have a pseudonymous identity separate from their "work" identity to
sidestep drama resulting from common misconceptions about the community).
Granted, my circle of friends has an unusually high number of people in
both of those affected communities, so my sample is definitely
disproportionately affected and is making Facebook an increasingly
unpopular network among people I know (now if I could just get a few
stragglers off that network to someplace that isn't such a universal pain
in the ass for everyone, I wouldn't have a reason to have a token account
hanging around).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Looking for maps with rendered toll status

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Richard Z.  wrote:

> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 10:27:54AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > I am looking for examples how toll status of roads is displayed on
> > existing maps. I am considering rendering toll status in
> > openstreetmap-carto. But I have no good ideas how it may be done and I
> > failed to find maps displaying this data by using a different style for
> > roads.
>
> one example that I have seen on paper maps was a red-dotted line
> on the road. I think OpenAndroMaps does implement this.
>
> Some maps have symbols for toll-collection points.
>

American maps usually render toll roads in green, as seen at
http://mapq.st/1EsDwt6
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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Richard Fairhurst]

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would 
> have expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on 
> the user's talk page

No. Please remember that the primary means of discussion and consensus in
OSM is mailing lists, even when the subject is the wiki, and even though the
mailing lists suck. There is no precedent for obtaining consensus on
community decisions via wiki talk pages.

Talk pages might be how it's done in Wikipedia, but we're not Wikipedia.

Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Lester Caine]

On 11/05/15 09:39, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:
> On 2015-05-11 at 08:41:48 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
>> On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
>>> I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon.
>> This is the real problem.
>> While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on
>> the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does
>> prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are
>> places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one?
> 
> forcing real looking names does not solve this issue: creating a fake
> account under a name like "John Smith" is just as easy as creating one 
> under a nickname, and even less likely to be identified.
> 
> Requiring verification through official documents is going to bring 
> a number of logistic and legal problems (and won't stop motivated people 
> from using fake documents).
> 
> On the other hand, this tends to give problems to people with unusual names, 
> who see their real name refused by the system, and prevents people with 
> long term pseudonimes to subscribe to the system with the name they 
> are actually known as.

I'm not advocating anything like that ...
Just purely sticking a hand up to say can we have a bit more openness on
who we are ACTUALLY talking to ...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

On 2015-05-11 at 08:41:48 +0100, Lester Caine wrote:
> On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> > I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon.
> This is the real problem.
> While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on
> the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does
> prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are
> places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one?

forcing real looking names does not solve this issue: creating a fake
account under a name like "John Smith" is just as easy as creating one 
under a nickname, and even less likely to be identified.

Requiring verification through official documents is going to bring 
a number of logistic and legal problems (and won't stop motivated people 
from using fake documents).

On the other hand, this tends to give problems to people with unusual names, 
who see their real name refused by the system, and prevents people with 
long term pseudonimes to subscribe to the system with the name they 
are actually known as.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 05/11/2015 03:07 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> Of the dozens of people interacting with Xxzme, none had the authority
> or position to issue such a *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*.

What exactly constitutes a warning matching these three adjectives, or
whether a warning needs to match them in the first place, is certainly
subject to discussion.

But I would say that having been banned once for a month already is
clearly some indication that one is not expected to continue where one
left off after the ban is over, or turning it the other way, is clearly
a strong hint that if you continue you'll be banned again.

> I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon.

This is not going to be a problem I think. Xxzme is not a hard-to-detect
vandal who changes the direction of oneway streets. If he pops up under
another user name and continues his past behaviour he will immediately
be found out and banned without further ado; if on the other hand, he
pops up under another name and makes useful edits without intimidating
others so that we don't even notice it is the same person, then he's
totally welcome!

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Junction assessment help

[Lester Caine]

On 11/05/15 01:00, pmailkeey . wrote:
> To add to the confusion, 'NO ENTRY' has been painted on the road surface
> - but this does not make it a one way street either!
We use 'one way' for a lot more than simply one way streets. Every
junction where there is a traffic island and the road splits is tagged
showing the 'safe' driving direction. Would you drive up the right hand
branch? That is ignoring the case of trying to escape from the police ;)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Lester Caine]

On 11/05/15 02:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon.
This is the real problem.
While it is now common for people to hide behind anonymous nicknames on
the internet, it is certainly not courteous these days since it does
prevent proper interaction on what IS a social platform. There are
places where hiding ones identity is necessary, but here is not one?

-- 
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Broken coastline

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 10 May 2015, Mike Thompson wrote:
> I am considering an edit involving "natural=coastline" involving the
> Great Lakes that are shared between the US and Canada.  This has been
> discussed on the Talk-US and Talk-Ca lists and there have been no
> objections to date.

As you know the Great Lakes have a right of continuance in being tagged 
as coastline however you should keep in mind that not having a 
multipolygon relation tagged natural=water representing these lakes 
also has disadvantages, and having relations/nodes tagged place=sea or 
place=lake is awkward and you can't really expect geocoders, renderers 
and other programs to make a special case here.

By the way even if the lakes are tagged as coastline tagging the 
US-Canada boundary within the lakes maritime=yes is not correct.

> Technical advice is welcome, e.g. how to easily find island ways that
> go clockwise (water on the left)

Yes, that's a tricky one - i don't think there are that many islands not 
yet tagged coastline though.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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