Re: [OSM-talk] This needs to be voted upon. (was: Re: Separating all metadata from coordinates in OSM into a wikibase instance)

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:03 AM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Before going to vote it would need to demonstrate some sort of clear
> benefit and
> consensus that it is reasonable.
>

For this, as well as my take on this
, is why I'm
also a hard no on this.  This is a solution looking for a problem that will
only create a bigger series of problems.  We already have bigger problems,
like making lanes=* actually pass on the ground verifiability in situations
where there's bicycle or motorcycle lanes.  Or killing ref=* on ways as a
method of describing road routes in favor of relations.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclofix project

[joost schouppe]

Hi Morten,

The site works without a database, so requires very little upkeep. The team
that worked on it is very enthusiastic about the project and at least four
of the five people who built this during Open Summer of Code are still
involved as volunteers. Our partners from the government also seem quite
enthused to keep using it on some of their websites, and friends at the
pro-cycle movement were also inspired. We are looking for ways to be able
to keep working on this in a more structural way, but for now I suspect our
enthusiasm will keep it afloat. The tool is now already in production for
two "official" projects.

For cyclofix, there's some things in my personal backlog:
- add all the layers here: https://cyclofix.osm.be/docs/using-data-map/
(now there's an example for "where to buy a bike", but all the layers
should be explained there)
- add more info to the public wiki - most of our thinking is described here
https://github.com/osmbe/cyclofix-website/issues/4 , and I have been
editing the wiki to make some things clearer. I also aim to extend this
page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:bicycle

With Pieter Fiers, we've also been thinking about creating a proposal for a
pub subtag, which could be used to refine cafe and pub with a certain
"style"; e.g. "an Irish pub" or a "cyclist oriented pub". For now we just
say "if it is a pub/cafe and has cycle services or a cycling club, it's a
cycle café"

I believe Pieter Vander Vennet also has some ideas on how to make the
overpass-queries behind the data more visible to end users, so the "real
OSM people" can easily get an idea of our choices.

We have tried to keep the entire Cyclofix project documented and easily
replicable (including "how to organise a cyclofix mapping party") on
https://cyclofix.osm.be/

If you want to be a little more closely involved: most of our team is
included in community (at) osm.be , and we've also created a Matrix
chatroom.

Best,
Joost

Op ma 10 aug. 2020 om 16:07 schreef Morten Lange via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org>:

> Thanks for your hepful response (below).
> And sorry that I "re-sent"  my questions in a slightly different way.
>
> However, there were two new points.
> One question about the life expectancy of the current site
> and one suggestion or inspiration (By some possibly perceived as wishful
> thinking):
>
> I enjoyed testing your solution, and I would like to announce it to others
> to try.
> But I suppose continued operation of the current site is uncertain?
> That fact(?) holds me back a bit, except for "geeks"  and bicycle+map
> affectionados.
>
> Ideally The European Cyclists Federation or even UNEP or some other big
> organisation would offer to support operations of such a site, and cater
> for large traffic loads and continued development for, say, a 10 year
> period  :-)
> In the larger picture the costs would be quie low!
>
> --
> Regards / Kveðja / Kila la heri / Hilsen
> Morten Lange
>
>
> On Sunday, 9 August 2020, 16:25:52 CEST, Pieter Fiers 
> wrote:
>
>
> > Congratulations on a nice project and a useful one !
> > For a long time I have wished for a user-friendly bicycle repair
> specific map, including bicycle cafés.
>
> Thanks, us as well ;)
>
> >  What I miss in the Cyclofix project is an easy-to find definition of
> how you classify the nodes that are to be included in the different map
> "layers".
> > Which search is it that produces the bicycle cafés. (And what takes
> precedence if two or more criteria are fulfilled?)
>
> An excellent question, and something we want to improve in a future
> version (the discoverability and ease-of-use of the "layer" definitions).
>
> To answer the bicycle cafés question in the context of the current
> version:
> Take a look at
> https://github.com/pietervdvn/MapComplete/blob/master/Customizations/Layers/BikeCafes.ts#L23.
> That overpass filter/query can basically be written as: "a pub/bar/cafe
> with pub=cycling or any bicycle:service" (https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/WSU
> ).
>
> With regards to precedence, both POI's would be shown (not ideal). With
> the current definitions this might happen if there's an overlap on 
> shop=bicycle,
> amenity=pub/bar/cafe, amenity=bicycle_parking or amenity=
> bicycle_repair_station.
>
> > I agree with making a distinction between "pure" bicycle shops  and
> general sport shops that offer bicycles or  repair of bicycles.
>
> For "pure" bicycle shops we use shop=bicycle, for "other" shops (general
> sports equipment stores) we use shop=* + any bicycle:service:* tag.
>
> We're excited for the future and we're continuing work on making the
> project more user-friendly and approachable!
>
>
> Thanks for the kind words and with kind regards,
> Pieter Fiers
>
>
> On 05/08/2020 00:39, Morten Lange wrote:
>
> Congratulations on a nice project and a useful one !
>
> For a long time I have wished for a user-friendly bicycle repair specific
> map, including bicycle cafés.
>
> What I miss in the Cyclofix project is an eas

Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclofix project

[Morten Lange via talk]

Thanks for your hepful response (below).And sorry that I "re-sent"  my 
questions in a slightly different way.
However, there were two new points. 
One question about the life expectancy of the current site and one suggestion 
or inspiration (By some possibly perceived as wishful thinking): 
I enjoyed testing your solution, and I would like to announce it to others to 
try. 
But I suppose continued operation of the current site is uncertain?
That fact(?) holds me back a bit, except for "geeks"  and bicycle+map 
affectionados.   

Ideally The European Cyclists Federation or even UNEP or some other big 
organisation would offer to support operations of such a site, and cater for 
large traffic loads and continued development for, say, a 10 year period  :-)  
In the larger picture the costs would be quie low! 
-- Regards / Kveðja / Kila la heri / Hilsen Morten Lange 

On Sunday, 9 August 2020, 16:25:52 CEST, Pieter Fiers  
wrote:  
 
  > Congratulations on a nice project and a useful one ! > For a long time I 
have wished for a user-friendly bicycle repair specific map, including bicycle 
cafés.
 
  Thanks, us as well ;)
 
 >  What I miss in the Cyclofix project is an easy-to find definition of how 
 >you classify the nodes that are to be included in the different map "layers". 
 > Which search is it that produces the bicycle cafés. (And what takes 
 > precedence if two or more criteria are fulfilled?)
 
 An excellent question, and something we want to improve in a future version 
(the discoverability and ease-of-use of the "layer" definitions). 
 
 To answer the bicycle cafés question in the context of the current version: 
 Take a look at 
https://github.com/pietervdvn/MapComplete/blob/master/Customizations/Layers/BikeCafes.ts#L23.
 That overpass filter/query can basically be written as: "a pub/bar/cafe with 
pub=cycling or any bicycle:service" (https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/WSU).
 
 With regards to precedence, both POI's would be shown (not ideal). With the 
current definitions this might happen if there's an overlap on shop=bicycle, 
amenity=pub/bar/cafe, amenity=bicycle_parking or amenity=bicycle_repair_station.
 
 > I agree with making a distinction between "pure" bicycle shops  and general 
 > sport shops that offer bicycles or  repair of bicycles. 
 
 For "pure" bicycle shops we use shop=bicycle, for "other" shops (general 
sports equipment stores) we use shop=* + any bicycle:service:* tag.
 
 We're excited for the future and we're continuing work on making the project 
more user-friendly and approachable!
 
 
 Thanks for the kind words and with kind regards,
 Pieter Fiers
 
 
 On 05/08/2020 00:39, Morten Lange wrote:
  
 
 Congratulations on a nice project and a useful one ! 
  For a long time I have wished for a user-friendly bicycle repair specific 
map, including bicycle cafés. 
  What I miss in the Cyclofix project is an easy-to find definition of how you 
classify the nodes that are to be included in the differewnt map "layers".  
Which search is it that produces the bicycle cafés. (And what takes precedence 
if two or more criteria are fulfilled?) 
  I agree with making a distinction between "pure" bicycle shops  and general 
sport shops that offer bicycles or  repair of bicycles. 
 However, the way Cyclofix has decided to differentiate is not self-evident to 
me, after briefly checking your documentation. I must admit that I did not 
really consider looking at the source-code  ;-)  
   --  Regards / Kveðja / Kila la heri / Hilsen  Morten Lange
  
On Wednesday, 29 July 2020, 19:43:38 CEST, Pieter Fiers 
 wrote:  
  
 Dear OSM community,  
  My name is Pierre Barban. A team composed of three very motivated students, 
including myself, and lead by two active members of the OSMbe, have been 
mandated by the region of Brussels, Belgium, to create a map gathering all kind 
of data related to cycling. Without a doubt, OpenStreetMap was the perfect tool 
for us to create a powerful platform that would sustain over the years.  
  In the framework of month-long online code camp organized by the non-profit 
Open Knowledge Belgium, we have been able to establish the first version of the 
tool, organized a mapathon to collect data, and create a complete website to 
document the entire making process.  
  In accordance with the OSM core values, it would be very valuable for our 
project as well as our individual learning process to receive as many 
constructive comments from the community as possible. If you're interested in 
more details about the project, we will be giving an online presentation 
tomorrow July 30, 2020 at 1pm CEST. We will be available to directly discuss 
after the presentation to receive feedback in order to keep improving our 
project. Other related project from our program, Open Summer of Code, like the 
Bike Data Project - which aims to collect and share cyclist commute data in an 
opened way - will also be presented to you.   
  Please do not hesitate to co