Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
On 19/1/23 14:03, john whelan wrote: Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen there? Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped? I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK. Thoughts? The major ones appear on the government topo maps, so they are not 'secret'. There is lots of 'infrastructure' that has vulnerability yet is mapped. My mother was concerned when she saw a map of the snowy mountains scheme when she first went there, concerned that so foreign power would obtain that information for use in a war... Both the Rusian and American mapped the world with their own topo maps for potential military use years ago, some of them are available on the web. If they don't appear on OSM maps people will simply change to other sources. I see no point in there removal. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
Ever been lost someplace where that's the only obvious set of fixed landmarks? On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 9:16 PM john whelan wrote: > Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them? > > Thanks John > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea, wrote: > >> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh. But I >> understand that people can be sensitive. >> >> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more >> free rather than less free. What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or >> kindergartens because they have children? >> >> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen. We >> mappers ourselves are not criminals for mapping. >> >> Map. Map well. Criminals will be criminals. While there are book >> banning people, librarians are not criminals. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:05 PM john whelan wrote: > Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet > through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation > in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen > there? > > Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped? > > I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation > fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK. > > Thoughts? > I live in one of the states where people fired at and damaged a power substation so I'm concerned about the safety of our infrastructure. Unfortunately there are many infrastructures that are vulnerable to attacks. Such facilities as water plants, dams, bridges, transportation, pipelines, hospitals, and a host of others. But I believe that mapping them can also help. If you go back to the idea that "security through obscurity" I think you'll find that it is just an illusion. BTW - those caught and charged with damaging a power substation here were looking to rob some stores. We all assumed it was right wing radicals. Best, Clifford -- @osm_washington www.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
Navigational landmarks while hiking. On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:17 PM john whelan wrote: > Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them? > > Thanks John > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea, wrote: > >> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh. But I >> understand that people can be sensitive. >> >> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more >> free rather than less free. What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or >> kindergartens because they have children? >> >> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen. We >> mappers ourselves are not criminals for mapping. >> >> Map. Map well. Criminals will be criminals. While there are book >> banning people, librarians are not criminals. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:13 PM, john whelan wrote: > Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them? I don't wish to sound antagonistic, but that's like asking "what good is our map" and expecting the infinite "creative and unexpected purposes" that have, do and will evolve from our data to be a complete answer. It can't ever be complete. Power lines "exist." They are "in the real world." Sometimes they are "in the way." (Perhaps I am flying my drone or hang-gliding). Their poles and towers sometimes have wide swaths upon the landscape and make a human, technological path wherever they are, they deserved to be mapped. So do their often-fenced substation structures and related infrastructure. If an owner / power company needs to beef up its security, that is little to no concern of mine as an OSM mapper. It's a valuable conversation to have, I'll agree. I don't like hearing about rifle-accurate attacks that take out quite expensive infrastructure with a box of well-placed bullets, but that is the world we live in (in some places). The world we map in? I'll keep on mapping (including power infrastructure, if for no other reason than "others make pretty spider-webby renderings" of power infrastructure, and I like to look at those). I'm not a nutter with a gun, I'm a mapper. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them? Thanks John On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea, wrote: > I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh. But I > understand that people can be sensitive. > > But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more > free rather than less free. What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or > kindergartens because they have children? > > Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen. We mappers > ourselves are not criminals for mapping. > > Map. Map well. Criminals will be criminals. While there are book > banning people, librarians are not criminals. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh. But I understand that people can be sensitive. But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more free rather than less free. What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or kindergartens because they have children? Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen. We mappers ourselves are not criminals for mapping. Map. Map well. Criminals will be criminals. While there are book banning people, librarians are not criminals. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen there? Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped? I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK. Thoughts? Thanks John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-gb-london] #waymap-project-SB cycleway vandalism
I had previously thought that @alisonlung's #waymap-project-SB edits were no worse than just a few decorative sidewalks, with some slightly irritating footway routing as a result. Unfortunately, I was wrong. I hadn't noticed what looks like real, and frankly quite nasty, vandalism by @alisonlung. They changed the cycleways forming cycle route LCN39 around Holland Park Roundabout to footways, with the result that some routers use the roundabout itself (I've done that and it's not fun). Looking at the changeset where I've (hopefully) fixed this in OSMCha will give an idea of what was done. https://osmcha.org/changesets/131431567/ I hate to think what else I'll find. -- Robert Skedgell (rskedgell) ___ Talk-gb-london mailing list Talk-gb-london@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-london
