Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns

[Adam Franco]

Robert, I applaud the Victoria government for using and collaborating on
OSM data! As others have shared I think direct government involvement with
and contributions to OSM are a great strategic direction.

Here in the USA our federal government is required by law to put all of its
publications in the public domain, which unfortunately disallows direct
contributions to OSM (though this public domain data is of course cleared
for inclusion in OSM by non-government contributors). In light of this
legal requirement, the OpenStreetMap-US foundation has partnered with US
Government agencies on the Public Domain Map project
. This project
utilizes modified versions of the OSM tool-chain (database, schemas,
editors, etc) to allow government staff and volunteers to create and
validate map data in the public domain, making it possible to incorporate
in US Government works and be readied for downstream inclusion in OSM.

I wouldn't want to suggest that Public Domain Map is the best option if
national laws allow direct contributions to ODBl datasets, but did want to
mention it as I feel that Public Domain Map is a clever work-around to our
local legal situation that brings our government as close as it can to
preparing data for OSM without violating its own licencing rules.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 8:13 PM Robert C Potter (DTP) via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi OSM,
>
> Representing the state transport authority (Department of Transport and
> Planning) we have made the strategic decision to use OSM as our
> foundational mapping data source.  We are confident that this is a decision
> will be of value to both ourselves improving the management of the networks
> (road, Train, Bus, tram) and adding significantly to the citizens of the
> state.
>
> Our intended use of OSM is built on an extract being done then validating
> that extract for the gazetted/official place and road names. The resultant
> validated dataset will be shared that via our Opendata portal.  Our state
> government has a strong commitment to sharing all data openly.  We are
> currently developing that process and should be in production by the end of
> the year.
>
> Alas, there has been concern from our distribution partners with the ODbl
> license requirement to "Share alike".  You know these companies; Google,
> Here, Tomtom and Apple.
>
> The information we would share, and all shared as ODbl;
>
>- Disruptions
>- Heavy vehicles
>- Bicycles routes
>- Public transport routes and timetables
>
> I am wondering how we, can continue engage with these partners and use and
> improve OSM.
>
>
>
> If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Robert Potter
>
> *Helping people use the power of location to make better decisions*
>
> Manager, Spatial Data Strategy
> Department of Transport and Planning
>
> 1 Spring Street
>
> MELBOURNE 3000
>
>
> *M *0402 484 739
>
> *F* 03 9935 4111
> *E *robert.pot...@roads.vic.gov.au
> *W dtp.vic.gov.au *
>
>
> I acknowledge the Traditional Aboriginal Owners of Country throughout
> Victoria and pay my respect to Elders past and present and emerging and to
> the ongoing living culture of Aboriginal people.
>
> DISCLAIMER
>
> The following conditions apply to this communication and any attachments:
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

[Adam Franco]

Spot on, Greg!

If this was Discourse I'd just leave a heart emoji, but since I have to
type a reply anyway, I'd like to address some components of what makes
communication civil and collaborative:
1. Assume positive intent until proven otherwise.
2. Don't assume that the reader's background knowledge and context is the
same as yours.

I believe that these transcend any American/German cultural differences.
There are other components as well I'm sure, but if we violate either of
these in our writing, then our messages we come off as uncooperative at
best.

Both writers and readers need to keep these in mind, though I believe that
the writer has a more immediate responsibility to show the intent of their
words, especially if they want to be understood by a global audience.


On Thu, May 4, 2023, 8:46 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> "Brian M. Sperlongano"  writes:
>
> > I would caution against hyper-simplifying the combativeness of the
> mailing
> > lists as "cultural differences". I can think of several German
> participants
> > on Slack and Discord that dispel this stereotype.  Similarly, I can think
> > of several American commenters who are notoriously abrasive on the
> mailing
> > lists.
>
> +1 to Brian's comment.  Going further, I think a "we are having problems
> from cultural differences" is more than an over-simplification -- I
> think it is basically an incorrect conclusion.
>
> I lived in a dorm that had about 25% people from US/Canada (which I know
> aren't the same place but they aren't so far off culturally :-) and 75%
> from a very large number of other countries.  For a year I served as
> dorm president and thus had a clearer view of conflicts.  My experience
> was that people mostly got along, and when they didn't, it was almost
> always because some individuals were just fundamentally unkind and
> unreasonable.  It didn't matter what country they came from; I knew nice
> people and jerks from many countries (although nice or nice-enough
> people were the overwhelming majority).  Yes, there were some obvious
> differences in degree of directness, but those were not the problems.  I
> have seen this same pattern in the online world -- it is 90%+ about
> individuals and how they approach others, not about national culture.
>
> I have also participated in NetBSD, and there too most people try to
> work together to achieve project goals despite differences.  I can think
> of several problematic people over the years -- surely the same as any
> other project if you knew the details -- and for obvious reasons I won't
> give any details.  But I will say that I know which countries they are
> from, that I also know many people from those same countries that are
> courteous and constructive, and that I don't think the problems are
> about national culture -- they are firmly individual.
>
> So I would say that the biggest issue is that some people are just not
> trying to be collaborative and are the kind of basically unkind people
> that I would avoid entirely in offline life.  The second biggest issue
> is a practice of giving a very short blunt opinion with no willingness
> to try to communicate the subtleties -- and I mean this over the medium
> term, rather than condemning anyone for a single short email where they
> say what they think succinctly.
>
> As for strongly-held beliefs about licensing, I think that's perfectly
> ok.  (IMHO we believe in open data, and a lot flows from that ethically,
> but I realize not everybody sees it that way.)  I also don't see that as
> the core cause of uncivility.
>
> What we really need is for people to be at least civil if not
> courteous.  That can't really be done with rules; it can only be done in
> my experience by shunning a few individuals, and trying to lead by
> example.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

[Adam Franco]

As discussed in this Practical Engineering episode
, the publicly visible nature
of the electrical grid makes security through obscurity very difficult if
not impossible. He notes that ballistic-resistant walls around transformers
are a likely future change to protect transformers from these sorts of
attacks from covert off-site locations.

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:48 PM john whelan  wrote:

> I seem to recall there are fewer rifles per head of population in the UK.
> The problem is more a North American one although with the ease of which
> guns can be 3D printed it could be a UK eventually.
>
> On a side issue I wonder if Microsoft's building detector could pick out
> telephone boxes in the UK?
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:40 Nick Whitelegg 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Even still, the location of major substations (e.g the 400-132kv type)
>> isn't really a secret. I could reel off quite a few in the UK without even
>> looking at a map.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* john whelan 
>> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 17:38
>> *To:* Nick Whitelegg 
>> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and
>> powerlines?
>>
>> I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for
>> transformers isn't quite so strong.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk <
>> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?
>>
>> Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when
>> out walking or hiking.
>>
>> And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used
>> shows them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of
>> continental European countries.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* john whelan 
>> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 03:03
>> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
>> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
>>
>> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
>> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
>> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
>> there?
>>
>> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>>
>> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
>> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
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>>
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