Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.comwrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Well then assuming this we can even say that anyone not being physically in UK can use any copyrighted source (Google sat.) for instance to contribute to OSM, right? 24 июня 2010 г. 14:22 пользователь jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com написал: I am not saying that. I am saying that this is a topic for lawyers. from what I learned about the discussion on wikipedia datapoints, it is uk law that governs osm data. mike 2010/6/24 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com So you want to say that you do not care for those osm-users, which are in Russia and which may have problems using osm with copyright data in it? Did I get you right? K. -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abnormal votings on military objects in RU wiki part; PocketGIS madness
Good morning, All. I am one of the representative of OSM/PocketGis team. At this moment we have 70+ active members of the both projects (OSM and PocketGis) simultaneously http://tinyurl.com/y3cotlt . We operate mainly in Moscow region, but we have active memebers throughout the whole western Russia - and most of them were attracted by the conglomerate of OSM and PocketGis. We have hosted a separate bug-tracker http://tinyurl.com/y6x4xeu for those members of PocketGis community, who for some reason can not change/add data to OSM database theirselves. We also participate with OSM data in our local tests, for example http://tinyurl.com/y4hzvb5 . First af all I would like to state that nearly 80% of the Komяpa's speech has nothing to do with real facts that took place. That is more like a snapshot of his emonional comprehention of the matter. That is why I forewarn you all from judging about the real reason that made us (pocketgis-osm team) raise some special aspects of military questions. That were not us who raised the question in general, but that was our team that tried to underline (during the first week of voting) the real (or even one of the few... or the only) problem that can prevent the whole OSM from being officially accepted or recognised in Russia. Oh, even not really recognised (OSM does not need any official papers or similar - I explain it in the next section). We have worked out the justification and proposed it for our team - those who use PocketGis and really add data to OSM database (those registered on wiki realy do contriburte to OSM). And there were some of them that did not agree with our justification. And that is normal - everyone can have their opinion. Furthermore just about a half of OSM/PocketGis participants have really voted. I would like to make it clear that OSM/PocketGis had no intention to organise a flash mob and to artifficially make our proposal win on the voting since in the opposite case we would have engaged 2+ members of PocketGis community http://tinyurl.com/yyd79ox (registration needed). Our legal analisys shows, that adding data to OSM in Russia in general by individuals without intention to gain profit seems legal without any license. Licensing for mapping is obligatory and possible for organisations only. So that can not be the matter of deleting all Russia from OSM if OSM were to respect national laws. The main problem (and almost the only problem) stressed by our team is that publishing (giving away) a composition of geographical position (dislocation) + military owned is likely to be considered as a violation of federal law on state secret. That can ruin all our efforts to give OSM in Russia the ability to be a real competitor to commercial mapping, which has a realtime and extremely flexible editing tools and plenty of possible applications. If the story comes out to the level of secret service and finish with their own decision to ban such information, that is likely that FSS (ФСБ, ex-KGB) may force the internet providers to limit access to OSM servers' IPs and domain names... it is a matter of just a telephone call. I realy doubt that in UK gathering and mapping (say making public coordinates) secret and top secret by law objects. Moreover, in general it is often not possible to distinguish each object with a wall or fence around it even with a building with a plate control checkpoint or military unit # on it as an object owned by military, so the only absolute truth on ground about it is that that is just a wall and access is prohibited (no). Giving the wall tag landuse=military that stands for military owned in Map features will be just a guess of the author, even if he has seen armed man behind the fence. Let me return back to the possible consequences of giving the coordinates of secret objects in Russia. Everyone can read lots of news about what is happening in China with Google: site banning and similar actions. Another example, now in Russia: a few months ago the largest Russian torrent tracker's domain name (torrents.ru) deligation was withdrawn by the registrator on a basis of a single request of the Prosecutors. Still another example: Google is forced to delete a video with 10+ views after a single expression of discontent of a member of the State Parliament. And that is all that happens. It seems to me that this little local rule of excluding landuse=military on the territory of Russian Federation will give OSM in Russia clear chanses not to be negatively influenced by state officials. And that will let it be freely developed and legally used. -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abnormal votings on military objects in RU wiki part; PocketGIS madness
2010/4/12 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org The one thing that is *not* ok is changing existing landuse=military tags *in the main database* to something else. This is the one important thing I took from Komяpa's message - people attempting to remove information from OSM hoping to please their government. If he was wrong about this, then all the better. If he was right, then no matter what you tell me about Komяpa's emotional comprehension of the situation, your proposed actions are detrimental to OSM and I have to thank him for bringing them to a wider attention. There were no attempts to delete someone else's landuse=military. The changesets mentioned concerned only the objects created by the same author (except only one which occured in the changeset removing =military accidentally and that mistake was recognised) - he has changed his mind on the topic and decided to undo his changes. Nobody tries to please their government here, this has nothing to do with what is happening. The only thing we try to achieve is - obeying the law in the part of keeping the state secret (compination of military + it's coordinates/dislocation). Moreover you can never know the truth about the object behind the wall, I repeat. The only truth on ground is that this is a wall and access is prohibited. Frederik, is it possible in Germany to give away state secret (if you know that some combination of information is not to be published for the reason that it is a secret by the law, only in combination) without being judged? You may say that to know a secret you must be allowed by the secret service to do this, but in some cases just a combination of pieces of open information is a secret by the law - and that is our case. -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abnormal votings on military objects in RU wiki part; PocketGIS madness
That is not the core problem, please do not extrapolate. That is not as wide as you understand. We take here only one or two laws concerning state secret. And that has very little in common with, as you said, Soviet law (with the same dose of paranoia, of course). There is no word in these law about such objects as roads leating to military object or whatever. They just declare that military objects' dislocation is a matter of state secret. So until you mark an object this is a military object there will be no problem with the laws. As I have already mentioned twice, the real truth about most of such object that can be known by people, that this is some territory with a wall and no access. Yes we have a State mapping department which deals with the licensing and they have a more restricting list of objects not to be depicted by the license holders. But we are individuals and their license is not applicable to us, 2010/4/12 Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com However, as far as I understood, core problem is that in Russia, *anything* connected with military can be claimed as state secret. It's leftover from Soviet law (with the same dose of paranoia, of course) and extreme example of subject. Therefore if OSM shows military objects in Russia, it can be ordered to be filtered out. If someone maps military objects, it can land them in legal hot water (if someone gets hold of OSMer location who did it). I think even some civilian roads can be claimed state secret if they leads to base which was sorta secret in Soviet times - but not these days. So questions are these: * How we advice as community to act in this particular case? * And how we deal with such problems in future? -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
