Re: [OSM-talk] elaborate? | Re: Examples of good paid mapping?

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi,

So I was one of the original complainants of Grab/Global Logic mapping
efforts.

It seems so far that they're doing much better now. We collaborated on a
workflow that aims for zero defects and no assumptions by remote mappers.
They have a decent writeup of their methods and workflows over here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab
A meta issue that tracks questions is here:
https://github.com/GRABOSM/Grab-Data/issues/49

Not perfect, but big leaps in the right direction. I hope other mapping
efforts will build upon it.

Best Regards
Mishari

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 3:14 PM Rory McCann  wrote:

> This thread is literally a request for someone to name one of the
> companies that is "doing it right".
>
> Yes, people complain more than they compliment. It's alas human nature.
> This thread is an attempt to correct that. So to those saying some
> companies do it, right: Can you please give examples?
>
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2020, at 11:57 PM, Bryce Cogswell via talk wrote:
> > Exactly. When companies do it right nobody knows they’re doing it.
> >
> > > On Sep 11, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Mikel Maron 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Most companies are doing well, and get along well, we just only hear
> about the problems. So it’s probably not this or that company to highlight,
> but particular mapping projects that illustrate well how it’s done.
> > >
> > > Mikel
> > > On Friday, September 11, 2020, 3:54 PM, Michał Brzozowski <
> http://www.ha...@gmail.com> 
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >> Hi all,
> > >> Do we have any examples of companies that do paid mapping (preferably
> at scale) and do it right?
> > >> Maybe leading by example will help other mapping teams get along
> better with local OSM communities?
> > >>
> > >> Michał
> > >>
> > >> ___
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> > >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Mishari Muqbil]

In addition, there are several pieces that can be used as building blocks:

1. Federated / self hosted systems such email, newsgroups, RSS etc. Can be
used, perhaps using something similar to DHT that can be used to locate
images.
2. Bittorrent, webtorrent or a similar system can be used to spread data
around and serve the data
3. Interplanetary file system - p2p network for storing and sharing data

Best regards
Mishari

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020, 03:03 Marc M.,  wrote:

> Le 26.06.20 à 14:09, Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> >> I don't care about SLA. Does OSM have SLA?
> > The point is when you distribute your storage to people at
> > home we will have at most 10% of images online all the time.
>
> what facts are you basing that number on ?
> The worst internet connection I have has 98% availability.
> of course, it's not mandatory to have a pay-per-use dialup :)
> not to mention local chapters or companies with servers in datacenters
> or with fiber connection (where 2 instances of the PoC are running
> right now).
>
> > Disregarding the case that upstream bandwidth internationally
> > is pretty bad so you tend to have access times
> > for images of about 4-5 seconds at best. (3MByte image at
> > a typical ADSL upstream with 1.5MBit/s and international latencys)
>
> your logic does not correspond to a distributed storage.
> it is not "one disk that sends one photo to one user"
> it is the pool that sends the pool of requests to all users.
> if you have 1000 adsl to serve 100 simultaneous requests,
> this is the equivalent of 15Mb/s par request (minus the management).
> I leave it up to you to imagine an order of magnitude for the conversion
> between simultaneous requests and users.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetCam to Mapillary?

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi,

Just wanted to share my workflow in case anyone here is interested.

When I'm on the road, I would capture using Garmin Virb then at the end of
the day transfer to a 2TB external hard drive. When I'm home I spin up a
Digital Ocean instance and upload all the files to DO then from DO I would
upload it to Backblaze B2 for archiving, Mapillary and OpenStreetCam then I
delete the instance.

Reason I do this is so that I can get the files out of my notebook as soon
as possible and let DO take its time processing and uploading.

Best Regards
Mishari


On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 9:31 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Is there a good way to export all your data from OpenStreetCam, in order
> to consolidate it on a Mapillary account?
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: [Talk-asia] Grab’s GlobalLogic OSM team edits in Thailand

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi All,

Thank you everyone for your emails and comments so far both on and off list.

Here is more information for your consideration prepared by @GOwin and some
mappers from Talk-Asia

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-asia/2019-January/15.html


Best regards
Mishari


-- Forwarded message -
From: Erwin Olario 
Date: Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 15:11
Subject: [Talk-asia] Grab’s GlobalLogic OSM team edits in Thailand
To: 


The original document (in original formatting) from which the following
text was copied is at: https://hackmd.io/s/HkZmHZ5z4

The following summary is a synthesis of the individual assessments made by
the volunteer mappers. I am responsible for any errors you may find in this
document. The invidual assessments are available through their respective
links.

We are sharing these findings with the rest of the Asian OSM communities
with the hope of promoting open discussions, and constructive engagement
for all parties. We feel that many other (Asian) communities can  benefit
from the exchange.

Kind regards,
Erwin

P.S.
Link to Supaplex's review notes are unavailable as of this writing.

---

Grab operates in Southeast Asia, and their OpenStreetMap editing
operations are contracted to Global Logic. They have conducted editing
in several other countries in south-east Asia prior to their foray in
Thailand. These never came un-noticed by locals and didnt’t always have
a great start [0], but in time, developed into positive working relationship
with these communities.

In December 2018, an article was published in TechCrunch [1] that described
the edits made by Grab’s contractor, Global Logic, as “absolute
disaster.” This tickled the interest of some mappers from several Asian
communities, and they agreed to conduct their own assessments of said
edits in Thailand.


Changeset assessments by volunteers

The following volunteers agreed to conduct their own indpendent
assessments of the changesets made by acknowledged team members [2] of Grab
Logic. These volunteers have extensive experience in OpenStreetMap, and
are known to be active OSM advocates within their respective
communities.

Reviewer OSM username Assessments
 -- -
ABROKWA, Kelvin Muzirian [4] Notes [5]
CHEN, DennisChen Supaplex[6] Notes [7]
DWIJANANTO, Adityo Adityo[8] Notes [9]
OLARIO, Erwin GOwin[10] Notes[11]
SAMBALE, Maning Maning[12] Notes[13]

The instruction to volunteers was to randomly select changesets using an
OsmCha filter [3] of un-reviewed changeseets of Grab’s Global Logic team in
Thailand, numbering about 7,000 edits. And to use OsmCha to verify said
changesets, and leave comments on them to record observations, if
necessary.


Conclusion

As with any other countries with active mapping volunteers, the Thai
mapping community is similarly lucky to have their very own active,
diligent, and prolific mappers who make time to map their favorite
neighbourhoods. We’ve frequently seen usernames which became familar
after several changeset validation, and we kept seeing the same names
again and again. Kudos to these contributors.

Overall, there is no substantive evidence to support the allegation of
massive detrimental edits, or systematic errors by Grab’s Global Logic
OpenStreetMap editing team. The errors found appear to be isolated, and
though there were unusual edits (that aren’t necessarily bad), there are
some bad edits that should have been caught by their internal Quality
Assurance (QA) team - the onus of primary validation of their team edits
should not be on the OSM community, but Grab’s Global Logic editing
team.

A few changesets were marked as bad, but none were considered critical.
Those marked as bad should be immediately addressed by Grab’s OSM team.

Some unusual behaviors were noticed:
* deleting road segments and
re-adding them;
* redundantly adding oneway=yes to roundabouts;
* their JOSM settings appear some users use a different/edited source
strings
for the same imagery, instead of what’s available by default from JOSM.

These are unusual, but nothing major or critical.

There are instances of inconsistencies with imagery interpretation:
tagging, use of various imagery and adjusting for offsets. The mappers’
training and on-boarding process can improve in these areas, and all
other mappers, ideally could have re-orientation to familiarize
themselves with the issues raised.

The Grab’s OSM team should look into supplementing their imagery source
with Mapillary/OpenStreetCam imagery collected by the local community.
They’ve been helpful to the validators in many instances during this
validation effort. Their QA team should take advantage of those, as
well.

This is not to say that the complaints from the local community are
unsound - local knowledge trumps imagery interpretation - feedback from
the community should always be considered, and investigated closer.
Remote mapping, validation and on-the-ground validation play an
important role 

[OSM-talk] Help with way forward with Grab

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi Everyone,

Some people from the Thai mapping community are meeting Ajay, the mapping
lead from Grab to discuss the quality issues we've been having with their
mappers but before we do this I wanted input from the wider community. For
those who are unaware, Grab has commissioned another entity, Global Logic,
to do the edits.

I've made some example of quality issues here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab/Issues I think I need more help to
categorize the problems and propose remedies for them especially in the
context of directed mapping teams. There were also more issues documented
in this thread https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=6407 but I
haven't sorted through all of them. This process would at least take the
focus away from individual problems and allow us to come up with a strategy
for dealing with classes of problem instead.

>From what I can tell, these are the broad classes of issues:
1. Connecting roads where no connection exists - ie. making guesses where
there are buildings or tree covers blocking satellite imagery.
2. Incorrect Tagging - i.e. residential roads in areas marked as parks
3. Not using up to date satellite imagery and overriding recent changes
made by local mappers
4. Changing existing tags - ie. secondary_link to primary etc. overriding
local mappers discretion.
5. Micro-alignment using satellite imagery

What I would like help with is this:

1. What's a fair expectation from such a mapping team? On one hand there's
the potential to add much geometry to the project, on the other hand any
bad data has an outsized effect on utility and perceived quality. What's
the sweet spot? Sadly Bicycle routing in the Grab mapped areas in Bangkok
using Brouter.de is now unreliable because service roads have been added
without information about access permission or barrier and in other cases
ways have been connected where no connection exists.

2. Thailand's mapping community is small and it would be impossible for us
to go through all 7,000 edits made and set it right. I've identified at
least one of the issues (1-3) in roughly 1 out of 4 changesets made by
Grab/Global Logic in my neighborhood in Central Bangkok and I would be
unable to give feedback on any issues outside of this zone, likely the same
with other mappers.
2.1 Should we just ignore the errors, slowly fix the errors, or demand Grab
fixes it somehow? Can we take lessons from any other projects, say TIGER
imports?
2.2 What would even constitute as a fix by Grab? Should we ask them to do
something like fixme=verify_on_ground on the new entries so that it can be
ignored by the routing until verified? At least it will make the map usable
again. Alternatively we identify the sweet spot in (1) and ask Grab to redo
their edits to comply.

3. It's been difficult to agree with the mapping team on a standard. They
did make some statements in this post
<https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=720203#p720203> which
seems to highlight a difference of understanding between the community and
the mapping team.
3.1 There doesn't seem to be a way in to enforce a commitment.
Hypothetically if they said "we do QC" then we continue to uncover errors
or “we don’t retag” when clearly this is happening, we can’t stop them.
3.2 Maybe there needs to be a way of assessing mapping activities so new
organized mappers know what would qualify as a high quality contribution.

4. The directed editing policy
<https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Directed_Editing_Policy> page gives
some good guidance but I think some best practices are required, complete
with example workflow and KPIs. Maybe this can be related to scale, the
bigger the scale of edits the stricter the quality and the more
transparency required. There can also be a difference between mapped vs
unmapped areas. Has anyone published any such material for their own
mapping projects that we can propose to Grab?

5. I brainstormed some ideas with varying levels of feasibility in case it
can be built upon by others:

   - Local Grab mapping team oversee remote work and are responsible for
   the remote mapper's edits.
   - Mappers are put in small teams with team leaders being personally
   responsible for quality.
   - Transparency about quality issues, affected changesets, causes and
   remedies ie. everything on a public issue tracker.
   - Global Logic brings experienced OSMers to their production room
   - Global Logic makes their process open so that the community can
   identify weaknesses and points of errors
   - Bounty: Grab deducts US$5 from Global Logic's remuneration and gives
   it as ride credit to local contributors who spot a bug. This would align
   incentives :-)
   - Fork the map, copy it and make changes on their own servers, allow the
   community to pull in whatever changes we want into the main map.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards
Mishari Muqbil
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[OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi Everyone,

Good news overall for the project I suppose, Grab (SE Asia's Uber) is using
data from OSM to do fare calculations as well as display route previews in
their app, making it a high profile use case for OSM Data. Now if only they
would attribute us.

https://www.mishari.net/en/2018/12/grab-osm-data/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Uber most likely using OSM data

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi everyone,

I've made some more quick comparisons here:
https://www.evernote.com/l/AAToqyEvUURAL71Q_xhbOB05s9mj-cH4Gg4

Counterintuitively, the ones with circle in green are the original with 
google maps background, in red is super imposed on OSM, you can see that 
it fits like a glove.


Best regards
Mishari


Mishari Muqbil <mailto:mish...@mishari.net>
July 27, 2016 at 12:18
Hi,

I wrote a blog post 
<https://www.mishari.net/2016/07/uber-using-osm-data/> comparing 
Uber's rendering of a sample route displayed in it's app with Google 
Maps and OSM Mapnik, it seems Uber is using OSM data for this function 
without any visible attribution to OSM.


Best regards
Mishari


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping Klong Toey Slums

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hello,

I'm just trying to track down a drone provider but I'm not sure if anyone
here has ideas of the kind of specifications I should be asking for. I
assume that it should have a GPS enabled camera and some sort of path
following feature. Anything else?

Thank you everybody for your input so far.

Best regards
Mishari

On Jul 28, 2016 12:29 PM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
wrote:

> Power poles, wires, wind, trees are usual dangers for multirotor aircraft
> too. There is also an issue of a large bird attack. These risks could be
> mitigated via sport flying.
>
> I usually train sport flying at a stadium very early in the morning when
> there no people there. I have got a small trainer quadcopter, several
> foldable Air Gates, and Air Flags. There are also gates at an American
> football field with high poles, which are good for learning to fly in
> narrow spaces.
>
> I have an impression that birds being excellent fliers themselves can
> immediately see the level of piloting skills of a RPAS (Remotely Piloted
> Aircraft System) pilot. If they see that it is an friendly experienced
> pilot they usually do not attack. In any case I regularly train diving and
> other BFM  .
>
> In addition to aerial images I also film aerial video. Video provides an
> additional information. For example, recently I filmed a medieval
> Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi fortress [1] in Ukraine. I upload a video to
> Wikimedia, add a video link to the Wikidata page, and add wikidata tag to
> the OSM map for this object.
>
> Wikimedia accepts videos only in open OGG and WEBM formats. Unfortunately,
> some quality is always lost during conversion to these formats. You can see
> the same HD video at youtube and compare the quality [2]; I tried all
> convertors which I could find for Mac.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi_fortress
> [2] https://youtu.be/C-kQjmzlY7A
>
> On 27/07/16 23:42, hyan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yes, ballons and kites is a good community-engaged method; in my
> particular case we face problems with the public-lab-ballon-kit because
> irregular power poles/wires at a low height, plus some wind present during
> the activity, so it wasn't possible (and a little insecure).  Regarding
> stiching it was not so easy to deal with 89 pictures using the MapKnitter
> (version 1 1/2 years ago), so by the moment aerial orthophotomosaics
> software seems to be the option. Another point regarding ballons is the
> cost of the helium.
>
> About security (and mobile apps) you should consider to create a previous
> relationship with the community, so start with workshops or other
> activities.  In my particualr case for the replication in other slums in
> Colombia, the conclution to my proposal was "not recommended".  If your
> focus is catastral, ultra-high-res aerial imagery is the better way, mobile
> apps can create ancyllary pictures, very useful indeed
> .
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Uber most likely using OSM data

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi,

I checked the about page. There's licensing information for a bunch of
software and Google maps but nothing for OSM.

On Jul 27, 2016 5:02 PM, "Christoph Hormann" <chris_horm...@gmx.de> wrote:

On Wednesday 27 July 2016, Mishari Muqbil wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wrote a blog post
> <https://www.mishari.net/2016/07/uber-using-osm-data/> comparing
> Uber's rendering of a sample route displayed in it's app with Google
> Maps and OSM Mapnik, it seems Uber is using OSM data for this
> function without any visible attribution to OSM.

Looks like it.

The area shown by the way is here:

http://mc.bbbike.org/mc/?lon=100.565099=13.736474=17=3=nokia-map=mapnik=google-map

Is there any mentioning of OSM in the app?  Like hidden on some 'about
page' or similar?

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Uber most likely using OSM data

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi Martin,

On Android you request a car, select the destination and the blue route
preview line appears.

On Jul 27, 2016 4:29 PM, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
wrote:

>
> 2016-07-27 9:35 GMT+02:00 Enock Seth Nyamador :
>
>> Interesting analysis .I guess this needs a second look.
>
>
>
> +1, I would like to do my own testing, how did you create the routes? (Is
> this Android/iOS/windows/web)?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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[OSM-talk] Uber most likely using OSM data

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hi,

I wrote a blog post 
 comparing Uber's 
rendering of a sample route displayed in it's app with Google Maps and 
OSM Mapnik, it seems Uber is using OSM data for this function without 
any visible attribution to OSM.


Best regards
Mishari
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[OSM-talk] Mapping Klong Toey Slums

[Mishari Muqbil]

Hello,

I just wanted to feedback from the community for our effort to map the 
slums in Klong Toey, Bangkok. The size of the area is about 1km x 2 km 
around here  and 
I have captured a sequence on Mapillay here 
. 
There are several challenges here including access to internet and 
English literacy, so I have come up with the following rough plan.


1. Put out a call for volunteers, work with NGOs in the area to find 
local kids who are interested in putting their community on the map.
2. Train the kids in using ID editor. I think I will limit them to doing 
specific things i.e. walkways, houses, trees, restaurant, convenience 
stores with individual kids limited to 2-3 features to avoid confusion 
then as they get the hang of it, increase their repertoire.
3. Take over a local internet cafe for a day for training and mapping 
purpose.


Now I'm not sure about the rest of the process, you can see from 
Mapillary that due to the somewhat dense nature of the community, GPS is 
inaccurate and neither Bing nor Mapbox has enough of a resolution to be 
meaningful. So I have several (possibly overlapping) ideas.


a) hire or borrow a drone to take aerial imagery and upload to 
openaerialmap and use that as a basemap but I'm not sure how possible it 
will be to see through the roofs.
b) get a team of surveyor students from Prof. Garavig to map out the 
paths in the community (it's pretty big so I'm not sure how tine 
consuming it is) then have the community kids fill in the blank.
c) use walking papers and have the kids go out, sketching what they see 
from the rooftop but I feel this may be prone to errors.


Does anyone have any experience or tips they can share on how we can 
achieve this?


Best regards
Mishari
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Mishari Muqbil]

I would like to +1 brouter which is IMO the best bicycle routing system
out there. As it's a bit geeky, I also wrote a short Quickstart guide
for laymen at https://www.mishari.net/2015/09/brouter-quickstart-guide/

On 9/12/15 16:20, Maarten Deen wrote:
> On 2015-12-09 09:58, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> A few suggestions.
>>
>> On-line maps for cyclists:
>>
>> * Opencyclemap (Opencyclmap.org) shows both infrastructure for
>> bicycles as means of transportation (cycle paths etc.) and
>> infrastructure for cycle tourism (cycle routes)
>> * http://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org shows cycle routes
>> * http://hikebikemap.org/ (EU only) shows hiking and biking routes
>
> With Richard's comments about dangerous main roads in mind I want to
> mention http://brouter.de/brouter-web/ as a very versatile router
> where you can change the routing profile and give more or less penalty
> to certain road types.
> It is a very easy method to steer the routing. I'm sure it is used by
> most, if not all, routing engines, but this is the only one I know of
> where you can manually change the routing profile to that level of
> detail yourself.
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
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