Re: [Talk-transit] Transit database
In message 4fd17e38.2050...@rwth-aachen.de Daniel Sabinasz daniel.sabin...@rwth-aachen.de wrote: Hi all, I was wondering if there is a free database in existence that does not only contain which train/bus lines stop where, but the arrival/departure times as well. I couldn't find one so far. I know Google transit has this aim, but only very few transport companies are participating. The UK bus and ferry times are available to download at http://traveline.info/tnds they are in TransXchange format and updated each week. -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator http://travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-GB] Naptan Imports
In message CAMNOZYHkg3Tdrd0hyqD975trri2tjbVfNpUNb42wLWqzsbhwXA@mail.g mail.com you wrote: Preston bus (used?) to operate on a hail and ride basis - i.e. it would stop anywhere on the estates to pick people up and set them down - in reality this became a few set places (i.e. where the footpath was paved up to the road edge rather than having a grass verge) but still rather handy actually! the set down places still seam to be used but the pick up places are all bus stop a now (however there are more than there used to be - most installed where people used to hail and ride). Seams to be a sensible idea for a new build estate - put the paths and bus stops where the people want then! Also a couple of buses a day were extended past the terminus so there was a customary stop opposite the terminus (now signed on the route I know best as its no longer a terminus for most services!). I hope this discussion of the finer points of bus stop strategy is not boring most people on the list. Should this move over to talk-transit? NaPTAN has a separate method of describing Hail and Ride on suburban estates. I am not sure is OSM has imported it, I will need to look for an example. It is usually better that a local authority does not use H R method in rural areas or where road speeds are higher, as the number of places it may be safe for the bus to stop will be limited. Traveline has some guidance to local authorities about this at http://travelinedata.org.uk/naptanr.htm You have correctly identified one circumstance where it may be deliberate strategy not to locate bus stops on estates, at least not until the stopping places get established by user preference. In rural areas the deliberate strategy not to mark all stopping places is primarily one of cost and in some places there would be objections because of the visual intrusion in scenic areas. In these circumstances a description of the stop in relation to a point of interest is usually sufficient to indicate the place where it is safe for people to wait eg lane end, farm gate, phone box. On Nov 24, 2011 9:22 AM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: Also, in my opinion, unmarked bus stops are a daft concept to begin with, seemingly dreamed up to make life harder than it needs to be! +1 Why would you have a stop without a sign as a deliberate strategy? It completely defies the idea of bus stops being marked as a place to wait knowing a bus will stop there. -- Cheers, Chris (osm:chillly) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator http://travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Naptan Imports
In message 4ecd147a.7000...@raggedred.net Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 22/11/11 22:26, Graham Jones wrote: Hi, I just found a node tagged with lots of things to do with naptan. It looks like it should be a bus stop, but there is no highway=bus_stop tag on it. (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/471495304). I just wonder what to do with it - can either add highway=bus_stop because it was probably supposed to have that on it, or delete it because it does not seem to be doing anything. I would just like to do something with it because it is turning up as a possible brewery on the BrewMap. Any thoughts? I don't know how the naptan data was imported to know if this is a common problem or not? Natpan imports were imported at the request of local mappers, in the hope that they would be verified - many have not been. The Naptan tags do convey information about the stop that needs checking and sometimes correcting. I checked a lot of stops and forwarded the results of my checking to the local council (councils feed the data into the Naptan database). At first they seemed interested but as the financial belt tightened they seem less so. Local authorities should be more interested in your help because of the financial pressures. I will be happy to try and follow up through Traveline channels if you have good feedback that is not being taken up. NaPTAN is now released on data.gov.uk every three months so the feed into OSM is rather out of date now. That will affect some areas more than others. The stop has no highway=bus_stop tag because it is a customary stop (naptan:BusStopType = CUS). If you do survey any of these and you find a bus stop sign, add a highway=bus_stop too. If you check the details on a survey you can then remove the naptan:verified = no tag. Check the street names - they can be useful indicators about road names especially in rural roads. The naptan:Bearing = W on that tag looks dodgy, because buses leaving tha stop would be heading north east (ish). I don't think that CUS tag is right in that case either because the naptan:Indicator = opp means there is a sign on the opposite side of the road so it is not really a customary stop, but that could be a Suffolk convention - every county uses the rules in their own way. I will like to compare the OSM details with the current NaPTAN and will try to do so soon. -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator http://travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Naptan Imports
In message 5e98b83652.travel...@mytraveline.info Peter J Stoner stone...@mytraveline.info wrote: In message 4ecd147a.7000...@raggedred.net Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: On 22/11/11 22:26, Graham Jones wrote: Hi, I just found a node tagged with lots of things to do with naptan. It looks like it should be a bus stop, but there is no highway=bus_stop tag on it. (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/471495304). I just wonder what to do with it - can either add highway=bus_stop because it was probably supposed to have that on it, or delete it because it does not seem to be doing anything. I would just like to do something with it because it is turning up as a possible brewery on the BrewMap. Any thoughts? I don't know how the naptan data was imported to know if this is a common problem or not? Natpan imports were imported at the request of local mappers, in the hope that they would be verified - many have not been. The Naptan tags do convey information about the stop that needs checking and sometimes correcting. I checked a lot of stops and forwarded the results of my checking to the local council (councils feed the data into the Naptan database). At first they seemed interested but as the financial belt tightened they seem less so. Local authorities should be more interested in your help because of the financial pressures. I will be happy to try and follow up through Traveline channels if you have good feedback that is not being taken up. NaPTAN is now released on data.gov.uk every three months so the feed into OSM is rather out of date now. That will affect some areas more than others. The stop has no highway=bus_stop tag because it is a customary stop (naptan:BusStopType = CUS). If you do survey any of these and you find a bus stop sign, add a highway=bus_stop too. If you check the details on a survey you can then remove the naptan:verified = no tag. Check the street names - they can be useful indicators about road names especially in rural roads. The naptan:Bearing = W on that tag looks dodgy, because buses leaving tha stop would be heading north east (ish). I don't think that CUS tag is right in that case either because the naptan:Indicator = opp means there is a sign on the opposite side of the road so it is not really a customary stop, but that could be a Suffolk convention - every county uses the rules in their own way. I will like to compare the OSM details with the current NaPTAN and will try to do so soon. Having taken a look in our Traveline data the bearing of this stop should be E and I have asked for that to be corrected in the source NaPTAN data. In other respects from what I can see, the stop is correctly coded in NaPTAN. In NaPTAN terminology the indicator opp means that it is opposite the Brewery Farm, (it does not mean that there is a sign opposite). I am surprised if you say that in OSM a Custom and Practice (CUS) stop would not be coded as highway=bus_stop, as in public transport terms it is recognised as the location of a bus stop, even though there is not a flag on that side of the road. You are correct to observe that there are some differences in NaPTAN practice between local authorities but some of this is historic and local authorities are working to harmonise the data towards the agreed standards. Hope this helps. -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator http://travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Adding new bus stops from NaPTAN
In message CAK5An89pm9i_BOnCkF39wz0+THwdp6+njGN83MaEv3DXioWrgw@mail.g mail.com Craig Loftus craigloftus+...@googlemail.com wrote: I came across a stop that has been added since the import, so I found the stop data in the NaPTAN release on data.gov.uk, parsed it with naptan2osm and added. Specifically: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1436667392 I just thought I'd best check that there are not objections to using data from more recent NaPTAN releases? There would be no objection from the Traveline point of view of using the NaPTAN data released on data.gov.uk I realise the data.gov.uk release are not the most up to date, but the Terms and Conditions on the travelinedata.org.uk are missing. I will be happy to add something to travelinedata.org.uk if it will clarify. However the terms and conditions are those on data.gov.uk and we don't want to suggest there are any additional terms. Prior to NaPTAN being on data.gov.uk Traveline provided OSM with a snapshot of the latest data. We don't rule out being able to do that again but data.gov.uk is probably a good way to get the data. Best wishes -- Peter J Stoner UK coordinator Traveline ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters
In message 1307701901374-6461640.p...@n2.nabble.com Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Ed Loach wrote: I can imagine the little M stickers being printed now... For those curious as to what these maps look like, here's one I photographed last week: http://www.systemeD.net/temp/onward_travel_falmouth.jpg (4.6Mb file) Compare and contrast with http://osm.org/go/erU5Lvdkm- . Richard Thank you for the photo. It is the first of the new posters I have seen so it has helped me to check the Traveline and NextBuses references! This use of OSM shows the value of the footpaths to public transport information and the great work done by those who survey... but more use like this does need to have most of the roads on to be credible. As an OSM mapper myself I press on trying to complete the road network in my area to improve this credibility but I would prefer to use my time adding detail that is not on the other maps or amending imported data sources where I can see that improvement is necessary. Best wishes -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Onward-travel-posters-tp6461416p646164 0.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb -- Peter J Stoner UK coordinator Traveline ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Onward travel posters
In message 1307705780225-6461826.p...@n2.nabble.com Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Peter J Stoner wrote: Thank you for the photo. It is the first of the new posters I have seen so it has helped me to check the Traveline and NextBuses references! :) They're good posters, I like them (though the cartography is a bit... utilitarian, shall we say?). This use of OSM shows the value of the footpaths to public transport information and the great work done by those who survey... but more use like this does need to have most of the roads on to be credible. At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, it is possible to make maps out of OS OpenData without importing it into OSM first! At the risk of stating the slightly-less-blindingly-but-still-with-severe-dangers-to-your-sight obvious, you can combine OS OpenData with OSM footpaths, and get the best of both worlds. Hard (though not impossible) for routing, but trivial for cartography. Luke Smith at Grough has done this to staggeringly good effect: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-March/011105.html http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/tq28.jpg http://www.grough.co.uk/lib/documents/tmp/lss/nn17.jpg I hope my eyesight is not quite as bad as you suggest. Good as the examples are, I would not want to lose the changes that OSM have made to the road network. It is useful to be able to get road details right that affect public transport. -- Peter J Stoner UK coordinator Traveline ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] railway stations (again)
In message on 26 Apr 2011, Peter Miller wrote: Andy Allan made a post recently about former railway stations being tagged as railway=station and the problems that it causes. I have been reviewing railways in London and have come across various other instances of multiple station and various other problems with stations when one starts getting into higher levels of detail. For example: Baker Street. There are three separate nodes tagged 'railway=station,name=Baker Street' (one for each line served). In reality there five separate lines each of which may have 2 platforms (unless any of them share platforms) together with 4 entrances but only one 'station'. Embankment. There is a single 'railway-station' node on one of the lines that stop at Embankment. In reality there are four lines each of which may have 2 platforms (except for those that share lines) and two entrances. Westminster. There is a single 'railway=station' node at a crossing of the two lines. In reality the lines probably cross each other on different layers and each probably have two platforms. There are a total of 5 entrances according the NaPTAN. And then there are the mainline stations which in general are more complex. Here are as sample: Kings Cross/St Pancras. There is one 'Kings Cross St Pancras', two off 'St Pancras' and two off 'Kings Cross'. There are areas tagged 'railway=station' for both Kings Cross and Paddington. Do we need a hierarchy of stations, of so what would be appropriate? London Waterloo. There is a single station marked 'London Waterloo'. However.. the Northern Line was dragged well off its correct alignment to pass through this node. I have now corrected the alignment but the line is now not explicitly associated with the station. Should the underground station be considered as part of the mainline station or not? Marylebone has three 'stations'. Probably two or one would be better. Paddington. There are two stations marked as 'Paddington' and one marked 'London Paddington'. The first two are tube stations, the last is the main line. Should there only be two? Regarding railway stations as areas. I have found that it is often unhelpful to tag complex station using an area (railway=station;area=yes) because the extent of the station often doesn't conform in area to the neat building outline on the surface - take Liverpool St station as an example where the extent underground is much further than the visible surface presence. There is also a recently proposal to clean-up public transport tagging which received a lot of support (83 approvals against 6 oppositions). We might be able to use this as guidance for a tagging review in London: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport Anyone fancy working on a solution that works when stations are modeled down to the platform level and which avoids having multiple instances of a single stations while retaining the correct alignment for the tracks? Incidentally, we have a view for railway stations on ITO Map here. If shows railway lines, platforms and connecting passages/stairs/escalators. http://www.itoworld.com/product/data/ito_map/main?view=79 Jason Webb of NRES at the Rail stations 2011 conference mentioned that the official data for rail stations will recognise the zones within the stations. If my notes are correct, then the zones are welcome ticket train onward travel This categorisation could be useful to help us navigate people through stations. I am hoping to find out more about this as it may be able to be adapted for bus stations too. .. but we also don't want the data to be too complicated! -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-transit] Town names in bus stop names
In message on 21 Dec 2010, Michal Borsuk wrote: On 21 December 2010 02:23, mich...@vonglasow.com wrote: Hello list, While mapping bus (and other) routes all over Europe, I have frequently encountered bus lines linking two (or more) towns, with multiple stops in each town. For example, a bus route might include the following stops (free adaptation of commonly encountered situation): Greenmond, Station Greenmond, Doe Square Greenmond, Church Greenmond, Roe Street Greenmond, New Market Mall Whitepool, Primary School Whitepool, Church What should we put in the name= tags for these stops? Where should we best put the name of the town? To complicate matters, let us look at the following conditions: - The name on the pole itself does not include the name on the town. So the pole at the station in Greenmond would just read Station. I take the name from the pole, unless it's not descriptive enought, then from the timetable. Here I'd clearly take Greenmond, Station (or Greenmond Station, but preferably not Station, Greenmond) - There is also a bus line operating only within Greenmond, which shares some of the above stops. However, timetables and line sketches for this second line omit the town name in the bus stops (i.e. Station, Doe Square, New Market Mall). In such cases I'd still use town name. It has happened to me that I wondered out of nowhere to find a bus stop without a locality name. I do it this way: only large towns and cities (let's say over 15 thousand inhabitants, or with a sensible number of bus stops) have those stops *without* locality name. In the UK the NaPTAN system of stop naming will usually allocate locality names to suburbs within the larger towns. Every bus stop in the UK has been allocated to a locality. By keeping the locality and common names separately it enables the appropriate level of naming to be used, depending on the context. - When rendered on a map, it is also advisable to omit the town name - thus names are shorter, the map is less cluttered and the town name can usually be derived from the on the map. Cf. the earlier point - if the town is small, the map is not cluttered. Besides, rendering is not much of our concern. In automated systems this would always require knowing the size of the town in order to know how the stop was constructed. - Line sketches and timetables for the above line list stop names along with the towns they are in. There are different ways of dong this:[...] Or (since Greenmond is a big city of a million residents or more), town names are given only for stops outside of Greenmond. I'd keep that. However, the more I think about it, the more correct it seems to me to put the town name in a separate tag. IMHO No. This is a map, and it's the bus stop's location which tells where the bus stop is. It does contradict what I wrote earlier - why then use town names at all? Because some suburbs overlap in a strange way, and with smaller places it isn't always clear. In UK we put some effort into trying to ensure that the locality+commonname+indicator combination is unique. So it is good to be aware of the town name when selecting the common name even if it is not always appropriate to display it. Best wishes -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] NPTDR in the datastore
In message on 26 Sep 2010, Steven Chamberlain wrote: On 21/09/10 19:03, Peter J Stoner wrote: The October 2009 public transport timetable data for Scotland, England and Wales is now released as opendata in http://data.gov.uk/dataset/nptdr Hi, That's great news! I feel there's plenty of free, open UK public transport data available now to have a good play around with. Many thanks to Traveline, DfT, data.gov.uk and more for making this happen. People have been asking for APIs, and easier ways to access the data, because the NaPTAN and NPTDR datasets on data.gov.uk only seem to be available as a single large ZIP file. And the formats are a bit scary. If anyone wants to look at contents of the large NPTDR ZIP file without downloading all of it, I've extracted a extracted copy at: http://opendb.steven.hosting.pyro.eu.org/datasets/nptdr/files/ Steven This looks very helpful. Trust it is ok that I have referred to it at http://travelinedata.org.uk/repository.htm Thanks -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA - join us at the Traveline Conference on 9 September 2010 http://traveline10.eventbrite.htm ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] NPTDR in the datastore
In message on 21 Sep 2010, Michal Borsuk wrote: On 21 September 2010 20:03, Peter J Stoner stone...@mytraveline.infowrote: The October 2009 public transport timetable data for Scotland, England and Wales is now released as opendata in http://data.gov.uk/dataset.nptdr Could you please correct the link? Sorry about that, it should be http://data.gov.uk/dataset/nptdr and for the moment it is also top spot on the homepage http://data.gov.uk -- Peter J Stoner UK Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline Traveline Information Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA - join us at the Traveline Conference on 9 September 2010 http://traveline10.eventbrite.htm ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-GB] Any more counties for NaPTAN import?
In message on 15 Oct 2009, Peter Miller wrote: Some 36 authorities already have NaPTAN (bus stop data) imported. There are another 6 waiting requesting an import. If you want to be in the next import run (and I recommend it) then do update the import request page [1] with your details soon. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Request_for_Import I am doing some NaPTAN training with new staff in the Teesside authorities tomorrow and so it would be excellent if anyone with knowledge of that area was willing to look at the NaPTAN there and give some feedback. It is excellent how in several areas good relations are being established between OSM and the authorities and this is helping to correct errors in the NaPTAN data. Thank you everyone. -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA - find Traveline design guidelines at www.travelinedata.org.uk/branding/downloads.htm ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] What's in a name
In message on 15 Sep 2009, Chris Hill wrote: I live near Hull, its proper name of course is Kingston upon Hull. It has the long name on the map, but everyone knows it as Hull. I think it would be better to use the shorter name and adding the long name as alt_name. Any comments? This is how the local authority has set up Hull in the National Public Transport Gazetteer. -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA - find all our informations services throughout the UK at www.traveline.info ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-transit] Public Transport routing
In message on 4 Sep 2009, Frankie Roberto wrote: The question for me is: could OSM fill in this 'gap' of functionality that Google Transit has? There's an old conversation at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Train_routing about whether train routing could work without a timetable. Whilst having a full timetable would clearly be better, I think we could do a fair bit without it. For instance, if we mapped the all train services (using relations) where the frequency is generally one-per-hour or more, then we could at least show people searching for a route which trains they can get, and where they'd have to change. Then they could look up the times for themselves on trainline.com or similar if they need to. The advantage of us doing this is that we can show public transport routes alongside car or walking routes. There are quite a few circumstances I can think of where you don't need to know the exact times in advance, just that a route is possible. For example, if you're planning a holiday, it's helpful just to know which places you can get to by train. It would even be possible to do things like selecting a station, and then displaying all the stations you could travel to from there without needing to interchange. These are the things that get me excited anyway. Sadly, I don't have the expertise to build any of them... Maybe worth having a look at triptropnyc.com or mapumental.channel4.com both of which visualise an approximate view of travel. The problem is where service frequencies are lower and small adjustments to time of travel throw up very different travel opportunities. Best wishes 2009/9/4 Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com Frankie Google Transit gets schedule data from the SE, EM and EA regions (but not London, so you can only get coaches from/to/through London) and that data includes coaches which have at least one stop within the SE, EM, EA or London regions. As Peter has said, discussions with other traveline regions continue. I have no knowledge of ATOCs current position certainly it would be helpful if they provided rail data, just as it would be helpful if TfL were to provide London data. Roger *From:* talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto: talk-transit-boun...@openstreetmap.org] *On Behalf Of *Frankie Roberto *Sent:* 04 September 2009 11:24 *To:* Talk Transit mailing list *Subject:* [Talk-transit] Public Transport routing Hi all, I just added a new introduction to the Public Transport page ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport), trying to give an overview of what public transport is and why it should be added to OSM. Whilst doing this, I had a quick play with Google's Public Transit map service, to see how that's getting on. For the UK, it seems pretty useless! Just about any journey I put in (London-Edinburgh, Manchester-Sheffield), the only option I got back was a National Express coach - seems they're the only data service they've imported so far. This got me thinking - whilst OSM is a long way from being able to add timetable information, basic routing (giving you the names of train services, and working out where you need to change), is something OSM could feasibly provide. Is anyone currently looking at this? I know of http://www.öpnvkarte.de/http://www.%C3%B6pnvkarte.de/, which displays public transport routes, but I don't know of any experimental routing services yet. Have I missed something? (Peter, ITO World?) Incidentally, I just came across this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Train_routing which seems to mostly date from 2007, but has some useful information (and diagrams) in it, that could be worth merging into the Railways page ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Railways). Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA - follow us on Twitter at @traveline and @nextbuses ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Roundabout, ways and relationship policies
In message on 22 Jul 2009, Andy Allan wrote: Brian Prangle wrote: Most public transport route maps do show the whole roundabout as part of the route - perhaps we should follow their example? No. Don't put in garbage into openstreetmap just to mimic other inferior maps! The split roundabout is a better portrayal of the public transport. Excellent if you are prepared to do that. -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator www.travelinedata.org.uk Traveline a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA - sign up to watch this page at www.travelinedata.org.uk/new.htm ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] West Mids Bus Routes
In message ab4a6cf40907020539v71072fb3uedec10d922b0b...@mail.gmail.co m Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com wrote: Have a go at mapping one bus route to start with - it's great fun! We were helped enormously by having the trial NaPTAN import so we got a good grid of bus stops mapped where we agreed as a local group to make sure all the route nos where displayed on bus stops were tagged. It's a good idea to travel a bus route and take a GPS track ( great for wet miserable days when you don't want to cycle). If there's a plethora of operators just pick the biggest and map their routes. I tried to do a bit of Route 50 yesterday which I know very well from staying at the Paragon Hotel. As you will see I got into a bit of a tangle with the relation description. Maybe somewhere there is guidance on this. It is quite a lot of work and I do wonder if there are easier ways to provide OSM with where the routes go. The immediate value to the public transport industry will be OSM local verification of the bus stop positions and the naming of stops, streets and localities. Best wishes. -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk follow us @traveline on Twitter a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus operator references
In message !!AAAuAOKaD4mR3JBOrEpRon92nMgBANp/H2q5kHF ivkmsnziqazabxjaaabausnwhbbsxrjctfdkbi0tdaqaaa...@googlemail.com Andy Robinson \(blackadder-lists\) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@googlemail.com] wrote: Sent: 01 July 2009 5:22 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Bus operator references Andy You need to get up to date! ;-) It's not me that needs to get up to date then ;-) it's the Network West Midlands (aka Centro in this case) Website. For example: http://timetables.centro.org.uk/showtimetable.asp?file=2_a\11AWMT#11C Operator details are at the bottom and the version 3 is dated May 09. I was hoping our Transport friends might be able to enlighten us. It would be a full time job to adjust the codes for every take over and rebranding. So where codes are well known by the public they tend to remain in use for some time. I think we will soon have a new code for NXEC! -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk follow us @traveline on Twitter a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN import starts - Birmingham trial area first
In message 49d135f1.9010...@00l.de Gerrit Lammert o...@00l.de wrote: Hi. I'm exited to see how this works out. Beeing curious, I just zoomed in into Birmingham and noticed two things: 1) Imported stops seem to be close to the already mapped ones but off by some meters 2) Some Streets seem to consist entirely of bus_stops. (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.479838lon=-1.896227zoom=18lay ers=B000FTF) Is this real?? Yes it is -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stop database import
In message def74e78d2f74302bdf48ad40609a...@redsol Roger Slevin ro...@slevin.plus.com wrote: Thomas You comment that York doesn't appear to be aware of the stoparea principle ... this is widespread. There are no downstream national applications that make use of stopareas - and no pressure, therefore, to create stoparea data. All the journey planners do use StopAreas in one form or another. Isn't it that some are completely implicit, though not necessarily requiring identical common names, or just don't publicise their StopAreas in NaPTAN (NE England). While Implicit is useful and better than badly constructed explicit, the explicit method gives more control and I hope that before too long we will have StopAreas in NaPTAN for all parts of the UK. 2009/3/1 Thomas Wood grand.edgemas...@gmail.com: 2009/2/28 Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com: In other news, whilst on the train to (and from) York today, I wrote a sizable chunk of the StopArea code for the converter. It's in a mostly working state, the only issues I have to work out are StopArea hierarchies, particularly when a StopArea is defined in another region's dataset, the national rail one, for example. I'm either going to have to do a mass convert of the whole dataset at once (which I'm not looking forward to, since I suspect the memory use will skyrocket), or try and resolve the dependencies by parsing the national datasets to get a hash of all the StopAreas, and then append on the county level StopAreas as and when they're created, finally we can then upload the national StopArea points, as and when we get around to those types of data. (AIrports, NatRail, to name a few) Whilst in York, I was able to photograph some bus stops, I've done a quick comparison of the data, it seems to be the worst in terms of standards compliance so far, but seems to be quite self consistent, which is a small bonus. Why quote the above? Well, it seems that York is unaware of the existance of the StopArea principle. (At least, I couldn't find it in a quick grepping of the data). http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Local_schemes#York -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Modelling complex stations
In message 2df974a3-16c4-4b43-9737-b743718dc...@gmail.com Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote: On 26 Feb 2009, at 09:24, Frankie Roberto wrote: Nice find. Digesting now. One of the problems with the unified stoparea proposal is that it suggests mapping one way per tram/rail track, which currently looks a bit of a mess in the default renderers. Going forward, we'll have to address this somehow. Either we have a way per track, and leave renderers to somehow figure out how to draw a single line through the middle, or have a way per track except at stations, or have a way per track plus a way down the middle for the 'line' (though this'd be a bit confusing when editing). I do think we need to spend a bit more time bottoming this out at this stage before coding lots of interchanges. As we are aware the professional community has also looked at these same issues and we can learn from them and borrow from them as appropriate. With railways the decision seems to be to have a way per track and then use relations to bind these together for some rendering styles. This same approach can be used for dual carriageways and complex junctions, even though no one has actually done such a rendering to my knowledge. Knowing what I do about train enthusiasts and public transport enthusiasts I think we are going to end up with every set of tracks and points in the entire world in OSM! We might start with a single way through a station and ignore the fact that there are three platforms and six or more actual sets of tracks, but the coding will get more and more detailed as more fanatical people get hold of it! And it will be great if they do. It will follow the pattern of OSM generally where first people did roads, then major buildings, then every building and then addresses for buildings and probably are considering mapping every plant in every garden next! What we need for transport interchanges is a method to do everything from the simple overview model where a station is a point feature to interchanges that are modelled in great detail. The potential to add great detail will be useful in coming years. We currently use the road centre line and it is of course possible to show a public transport route offset from the centre line in the direction of travel and we can pick up the direction round roundabout etc. However bus stops are usually in one direction only and so are the links between pairs of bus stops. Therefore I can envisage in the future wanting to deliver to mapping and navigation systems the exact track between two bus stops. In addition with many buses already equipped with GPS devices there is the possibility that at some point this data could be released so it would be good if there was a good home for it. Frankie On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote: I have been catching up on this great proposal to unify bus/tram/rail interchange modelling http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/unified_stoparea Here is a CEN standards document that has lots of great diagrams of all sorts of transport interchanges from the very large to very small from pages 42 to 66 on this document and proposes how they should be modelled by the professional community in the EU. It is a very new standard, not yet signed off, that covers everything that NaPTAN does not cover. http://www.naptan.org.uk/ifopt/ It is worth looking at for ideas about modelling and for suitable terminology. The example interchanges would be good resources against which to test our proposed modelling against before doing loads of coding of actual places. Regards, Peter ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com -- Peter J Stoner UK Regional Coordinator Traveline www.travelinedata.org.uk a trading name of Intelligent Travel Solutions Ltd company number 3826797 Drury House, 34-43 Russell Street, LONDON WC2B 5HA ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
