Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: | On Feb 3, 2008 1:49 PM, Bruce Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What does the separate object type gain us exactly, apart from more code | to maintain? | There are many issues with notes in the actual data: | | * It's not anything to do with the actual feature being mapped. | * It adds to the complexity of the data. (not really a problem) | * It wouldn't be possible to do more complex things like reviewing | a notes. | | I think we have a pretty good analogy here: we could ask people to | submit bugs by committing comments to the relevent parts of SVN. Only if they knew where in the code the bug was. And if they did, they could just fix it and not report the bug. This is different, because when somone is pointing to an error in a map, that only makes sense in the context of where the error is. If they want to post a bug and they don't know where it is (perhaps I can't find the city of [nnn] on the map), then that probably would go in trac. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqHtsz+aYVHdncI0RAi5iAJ0ThjhjrIR21aMTZ0ZcP5pLC9qMpgCg8sRq LGsUC92crYr3580R3TtRoF8= =v20G -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
Sven Grüner schrieb: Martijn van Oosterhout schrieb: I think we have a pretty good analogy here: we could ask people to submit bugs by committing comments to the relevent parts of SVN. We don't for pretty much the same reasons we don't want notes in the DB as nodes... A seperate system like Trac is far more appropriate. I think this error-reporting you're working on is gorgeous and will become a milestone in the evolution of OSM. Just adding to the wish-list :-) As mentioned by others is this feature only sensible in areas with a certain degree of completion. So some kind of function allowing mappers to unlock reporting in a certain area would be really cool. These areas could be based on the z13 or z14 tile-grid. When unlocking a tile the mapper claims (!=guarantees) a certain degree of completion which lacks a little error here and there but not large blanks. Assigning all reported errors to this mapper and notyfing him by mail in such cases could be thought of. regards, Sven ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Hughes wrote: | No, the plan is to have a separate note object and then to make the | map api call return those objects so the editors can display them. So if I am editing something, and I know I've done it wrong, but plan to fix it later, am I supposed to go to the separate notes interface and add a pre-emptive note, rather than use the existing FIXME notation? Or do you plan a separate system to show FIXMEs to people about to write notes to tell them that their note is already known about? Presumably, yes. I don''t know - I've never used a FIXME node. What does the separate object type gain us exactly, apart from more code to maintain? It gives something that can record useful information in a structured way, like the address of the person that added it. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does the separate object type gain us exactly, apart from more code to maintain? It gives something that can record useful information in a structured way, like the address of the person that added it. The other it does it that it makes it possible for the server to do things like RSS feeds of tickets in an area - if it had to search for all the nodes with some special tag that would be much harder and/or slower. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
On Sun, 2008-02-03 at 00:29 +, Robert (Jamie) Munro wrote: So if I am editing something, and I know I've done it wrong, but plan to fix it later, am I supposed to go to the separate notes interface and add a pre-emptive note, rather than use the existing FIXME notation? Or do you plan a separate system to show FIXMEs to people about to write notes to tell them that their note is already known about? What does the separate object type gain us exactly, apart from more code to maintain? There are many issues with notes in the actual data: * It's not anything to do with the actual feature being mapped. * It adds to the complexity of the data. (not really a problem) * It wouldn't be possible to do more complex things like reviewing a notes. For instance, someone could mark a feature that should be checked. Someone else goes and checks and fixes it. There is no way to mark that check request as done if it was done in a note=* tag without just deleting the tag. If the tag was deleted, it may as well have never existed. (I realise you could look at its history, but you'd need to know the ID) -- Bruce Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
On Feb 3, 2008 1:49 PM, Bruce Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does the separate object type gain us exactly, apart from more code to maintain? There are many issues with notes in the actual data: * It's not anything to do with the actual feature being mapped. * It adds to the complexity of the data. (not really a problem) * It wouldn't be possible to do more complex things like reviewing a notes. I think we have a pretty good analogy here: we could ask people to submit bugs by committing comments to the relevent parts of SVN. We don't for pretty much the same reasons we don't want notes in the DB as nodes... A seperate system like Trac is far more appropriate. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
Martijn van Oosterhout schrieb: I think we have a pretty good analogy here: we could ask people to submit bugs by committing comments to the relevent parts of SVN. We don't for pretty much the same reasons we don't want notes in the DB as nodes... A seperate system like Trac is far more appropriate. I think this error-reporting you're working on is gorgeous and will become a milestone in the evolution of OSM. As you compared it to trac I'd like annotate a few ideas for it's further development. Like in trac different categories of error would be nice: - Wrong/No name (ideally referring to the object's ID) - Wrong position/location (dito) - Wrong direction for oneway (dito) - Missing feature (just referring to coordinates)* - [?] - other Depending on such a classification the mapper knows what needs to be done to confirm/correct the error. Mispellings could probably be solved by couch-potatoes, wrong directions must be checked on-site and missing features or wrong locations require a GPSr. regards, Sven * Maybe offering a dropdown with all possible features to avoid reports like you missed my marvellous tulip bed :-) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob wrote: | i've worked with crschmidt to make a (prototype) notes system | demo is working on http://burghthof.nl/osm/index.php | | this is just a test to see if it is usable | | it's also used in the where am i application for the symbian phones That's great, but the notes need to be nodes in the DB so that when I am looking at the area in an editor I can see them. Unless you want to write separate plugins for JOSM, Potlatch, OSMAJAX, Merkaartor, Maplint ~ etc. as well as the one for WhereAmI. Just create a user in the DB called AnonymousNotes or something, and have it add nodes with: FIXME=User note from [user entered name or email or whatever] note=[the text of the note] Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHpHdgz+aYVHdncI0RAhDLAJ9fzxK5pRROzAGvHkwvISil2cm/0QCgmh3Q IJleYO5jpJ1hlae3JWetR+U= =Zlip -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob wrote: | i've worked with crschmidt to make a (prototype) notes system | demo is working on http://burghthof.nl/osm/index.php | | this is just a test to see if it is usable | | it's also used in the where am i application for the symbian phones That's great, but the notes need to be nodes in the DB so that when I am looking at the area in an editor I can see them. Unless you want to write separate plugins for JOSM, Potlatch, OSMAJAX, Merkaartor, Maplint ~ etc. as well as the one for WhereAmI. Just create a user in the DB called AnonymousNotes or something, and have it add nodes with: FIXME=User note from [user entered name or email or whatever] note=[the text of the note] No, the plan is to have a separate note object and then to make the map api call return those objects so the editors can display them. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tom Hughes wrote: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Robert (Jamie) Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Rob wrote: | | i've worked with crschmidt to make a (prototype) notes system | | demo is working on http://burghthof.nl/osm/index.php | | | | this is just a test to see if it is usable | | | | it's also used in the where am i application for the symbian phones | | That's great, but the notes need to be nodes in the DB so that when I am | looking at the area in an editor I can see them. Unless you want to | write separate plugins for JOSM, Potlatch, OSMAJAX, Merkaartor, Maplint | ~ etc. as well as the one for WhereAmI. | | Just create a user in the DB called AnonymousNotes or something, and | have it add nodes with: | FIXME=User note from [user entered name or email or whatever] | note=[the text of the note] | | No, the plan is to have a separate note object and then to make the | map api call return those objects so the editors can display them. So if I am editing something, and I know I've done it wrong, but plan to fix it later, am I supposed to go to the separate notes interface and add a pre-emptive note, rather than use the existing FIXME notation? Or do you plan a separate system to show FIXMEs to people about to write notes to tell them that their note is already known about? What does the separate object type gain us exactly, apart from more code to maintain? Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHpQrVz+aYVHdncI0RAi7YAKCl2d+6PRy+GfU2gJ9uCQXmye114ACgpaQw CrSjKoUHq+i6YKtucQ9pMGA= =Oo3p -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
Exactly my point. We want participation, at least that is my take on the gist of the OSM mission. The more passive users we can turn into active contributors, the better. The flagging/note system discussed here can play a key role in achieving this. As is being shown, implementation of the front end is not even the difficult part. It is the back end and logisitics that is the main concern. What happens to all these flags being put on the map by anonymous users? One possibility would be to have active and savvy OSM contributers assume 'responsibility' for one or more areas of their choosing (presumably areas they are familiar with IRL) and be npotified when a note / flag is set in that area. It's not a complete solution, but it might help answer the question of what to do with all this extra input being generated by a note system. -- martijn van exel -+- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+- http://www.schaaltreinen.nl/ Op 28 jan 2008, om 16:22 heeft Lambertus het volgende geschreven: You have to think outside the OSM box here. This proposal will make it extremely easy for non-OSM'ers (non-mappers that is) to signal: Look, there's something wrong. They maybe able to provide the solution, maybe not. The point is: there is no need to understand mapping, tags, editors etc. Just point, click and type what's wrong. Dead-easy and intuitive for everyone. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this. Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out of date, misplaced,...) I made a start here: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What you need is something like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't been written yet. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this. Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out of date, misplaced,...) I made a start here: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What you need is something like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't been written yet. I have some code for the Garmin download site that determines which maptiles reside within a given OL Vector bounding box on the serviside. If you're interested I could mail you that. Not sure if the code will be considered a hack or not though ;-) It's probably comparable to the OL example above (haven't looked at it). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this. Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out of date, misplaced,...) I made a start here: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What you need is something like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI Displaying the tickets in OL in a relatively low priority thing though so I wouldn't worry too much (though I think I could do it anyway). I think the data model is the thing that really needs fixing down properly - the rest is mostly pretty simple rails stuff. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: I made a start here: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What you need is something like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI Which will only fetch the stuff that's in your area, but that code is a complete hack and there are better ways of doing it, it just hasn't been written yet. Just looked at your demo and have some remarks: - Perhaps the report form could be implemented as an OL popup. This eliminates the need for a page reload and it looks and behaves like one would expect when one ctrl-clicked on the map. - The 'number of poi problem' might also be solved with a number of measures, like: -- If you send the area watching mapper an email with a hyperlink to the map showing the problem POI. This way you'll have only one POI active in the map while watching the problem. -- Corrected/finished reports disappear from the map. -- Require the map to be zoomed in to certain extend before showing any POI. -- POI have a maximum lifetime. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
Well, I think the tickets display and ticket registering is important to take participation a step further. You don't want just anyone going about making modifications in JOSM or even Potlatch, you need at least some idea of the data model and metadata for that. Basically, contributing to the map is now limited to people willing to learn to use JOSM or Potlatch. I think it would be a good idea to discuss this flagging possibility for 'the rest of us'. This would open up collaboration possibilities for location based platforms. For example Bliin[1], a location based social network. They already use OSM data for their mobile client. I met with them last week and they are very enthusiastic about OSM and really want to 'return the favor'. Just have their users upload traces to OSM wouldn't be of much use in itself. But if they would implement a 'OSM flagging' functionality in their client, their users would be able to contribute to OSM. They could flag for example a limited number of categories: street layout change, new street, new POI (again, limited number of categories), maybe a few more. This is just one example of possible contributions by OSM data users who are now only passive. I think this is something to consider and discuss. [1] http://www.bliin.com/ -- martijn van exel -+- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+- http://www.schaaltreinen.nl/ Op 28 jan 2008, om 10:33 heeft Tom Hughes het volgende geschreven: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 28, 2008 9:46 AM, Martijn van Exel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's very nice! I'm looking foorward to this. Next step would be to add flagging functionality to the map, to enable the general public to flag locations where something is not right (out of date, misplaced,...) I made a start here: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~kleptog/bugs.html and there's another prototype around by some others. What needs to be finished is the backend storage, and, most importantly you need a way to display the resulting notes. OpenLayers doesn't currently have a layer that is going to handle thousands of such notes on the map. What you need is something like: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OpenLayers_Dynamic_POI Displaying the tickets in OL in a relatively low priority thing though so I wouldn't worry too much (though I think I could do it anyway). I think the data model is the thing that really needs fixing down properly - the rest is mostly pretty simple rails stuff. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
You have to think outside the OSM box here. This proposal will make it extremely easy for non-OSM'ers (non-mappers that is) to signal: Look, there's something wrong. They maybe able to provide the solution, maybe not. The point is: there is no need to understand mapping, tags, editors etc. Just point, click and type what's wrong. Dead-easy and intuitive for everyone. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
i've worked with crschmidt to make a (prototype) notes system demo is working on http://burghthof.nl/osm/index.php this is just a test to see if it is usable it's also used in the where am i application for the symbian phones ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Recent Edits
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patrick Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not shure that I fully understand the usefulness of such a system. As I understand it, it would enable users to highlight something missing, or not right, on the slippymap and underlying OSM Data. I had a look at the proposed system prototype. Now, if someone goes to the trouble of browsing the slippymap, sees a problem, and then starts filling out the report form (which is quite verbose), why not help that user correct the problem himself? We can guide them on how to add/change a POI, or draw a new road? The idea is to have a 30 second way for somebody to report a problem rather than them having to register and then learn how to make the edit, which probably has a minimum bootstrap time of an hour. Just reporting the problem, and then hoping someone else goes back and fixes it seems unproductive. I still think of OSM as a Wiki, and anyone should be encouraged to make changes. I suspect that very often, we will have reports saying, hey the street I live in is missing here , and then you still need to somehow add that road, be it through local knowledge (which the original report written most probably has, and is gone if he believes that it will get sorted if he reports it, and that is less than certain) and/or external datasources (tracklogs, yahoo image layer , ... ). Obviously reporting missing streets is generally not very helpful unless it is in area that look well surveyed, in which case it can draw attention to a street that has been missed. Going to a blank area of the map and entering a ticket that Foo St is not there is clearly not helpful but that isn't really the target for this. The target is things like reports of misspellings or missing data in otherwise well surveyed areas. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
