Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-31 Thread Joost Schouppe 
 Hi,

The Board has decided to go ahead with funding these proposals; vote
results are at
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Board/Minutes/2020-08#2020.2FRes38_Funding_of_projects_used_in_core_infrastructure_.28Nominatim.2C_osm2pgsql.2C_Potlatch.29

For those on talk who are not yet a member of OSMF - if you want a more
direct say in decisions like this, join the OSMF as a member! Details here:
https://join.osmfoundation.org/

Best,
Joost
OSMF Board secretary

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:28 AM Guillaume Rischard 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure.
> During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it,
> but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to
> learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.
>
> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
> trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected
> the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal
> from Nominatim.
>
> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
> (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget
> management for such projects.
>
> The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure
> projects:
> Nominatim
>
> Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and
> many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:
> 
>
>-
>
>finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for
>different countries, localized address output)
>-
>
>making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of
>programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate
>repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package,
>docs, docs, docs)
>
> The full proposal is at 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07
>
> Potlatch 2
>
> Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While
> usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10
> million (1.2%) changes in 2020.
> 
>
> Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the
> year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who
> still rely on it can continue to use it.
>
> The full proposal is at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop
>
> osm2pgsql
>
> osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for
> applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general
> analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.
> 
>
> While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large
> scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed
> to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.
>
> Jochen wants to work on:
>
>-
>
>Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org
>-
>
>Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and
>useful
>-
>
>Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.
>-
>
>Ongoing maintenance as needed
>-
>
>Other work from the road map as time permits
>
> The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework.
> The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and
> potential improvements further and better.
>
> The proposal is at
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07
>
>
>
> Thank you and happy mapping
>
> Guillaume, for the OSMF board
> ___
> osmf-talk mailing list
> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-06 Thread Colin Smale 
On 2020-08-06 11:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 11:26 Uhr schrieb Lukasz Kruk 
> : 
> 
>> I'm not sure what rules govern this: "Londn" does find the capital of the 
>> UK, but "Warszaw" does not find the capital of Poland...?), which is only a 
>> little inconvenient when compared to the second-best online map.
> 
> this is because Londn is apparently the name in West Flemish 
> Londn (name:vls) 
> https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ui/details.html?osmtype=R=65606

And which language is "Warszaw" supposed to be? It doesn't seem to match
any of the name strings in OSM. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/336074___
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-06 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 11:26 Uhr schrieb Lukasz Kruk :

>  I'm not sure what rules govern this: "Londn" does find the capital of the
> UK, but "Warszaw" does not find the capital of Poland...?), which is only a
> little inconvenient when compared to the second-best online map.
>


this is because Londn is apparently the name in West Flemish
Londn (name:vls)
https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ui/details.html?osmtype=R=65606

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-01 Thread John Whelan 
Working on old code is always difficult. IBM got to the point of 
removing a bug to their mainframe operating system on average introduced 
a new bug.


Then you get into the testing side of things.

The flash side of potlatch is one that given the number of editors using 
it and alternatives available to them today may not be a good return on 
investment and I think that should be weighed up.


Nomination I think is essential and if it can be expanded so much the 
better.


osm2pgsql is not something I have direct experience with but I suspect 
it is one of the infrastructure things that many other things depend on.


The learning curve on old code is steep and if you have someone who 
knows the code then I think use them if you possibly can.  I've seen a 
consultant been brought in to make a change and on half way through the 
second day one of the programmers walked up to him and asked him what 
the change was.  The consultant was pointed to the line of code that 
needed to be altered and it took a few seconds to make the change. The 
consultant was trying to understand what the entire program did before 
making any changes in case it had an impact which was the correct thing 
for the consultant to do but experience with the software makes things 
much faster.


Oh and I've seen someone say we can do that in half the time and half 
the cost.  Problem was they didn't understand the problems involved or 
what needed to be done.  They were fired a week later when it didn't 
work but that didn't solve the program problem.


Have fun

Cheerio John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 2020-08-01 19:40:

Hi,

nice to see you rescue a few worthwhile things that have fallen through
the cracks of the Microgrant programme.


During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make
it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure”
process,

Are you planning to take the funds for these projects out of the
"Pineapple Grant" money, or out of the regular budget?


The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy.

I think that "trusted long-term volunteers" is key here, and somewhat of
a weak point at the same time.

I notice that all three proposals are very short on hard deliverables;
what they mostly promise is working a certain number of hours on a
certain thing but there is no guarantee that, or to what extent, the
thing is going to be achieved. Richard's proposal is the clearest here
("The result will be a version of Potlatch 2 that can be run on Mac and
Windows laptops"), whereas Jochen and Sarah only commit to working on
something, not to actually achieving it. This means we'll pay them no
matter what.

Now this is all fine because we have reason to believe that every one of
the three proposals will be a good investment and even if a goal could
not be achieved, the money would at least land with people who have done
a lot of volunteer stuff for OSM in the past. But the criteria are fuzzy
- why do we trust these three people that if we give them money to work
on something it will be worth it? Assume someone came along saying wait
a minute, I can do the same for half the money! And then we would say,
err, umm, sorry, no, we don't trust you in the same way we trust these
"trusted long-term volunteers".

Looking forward, it might become necessary to define deliverables more
clearly and make payment conditional on results having been achieved,
rather on time having been spent. But if you're lucky...


In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
(EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and
budget management for such projects.

... the EWG can take over that job ;)

Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-01 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

nice to see you rescue a few worthwhile things that have fallen through
the cracks of the Microgrant programme.

> During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make
> it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure”
> process, 

Are you planning to take the funds for these projects out of the
"Pineapple Grant" money, or out of the regular budget?

> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
> trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. 

I think that "trusted long-term volunteers" is key here, and somewhat of
a weak point at the same time.

I notice that all three proposals are very short on hard deliverables;
what they mostly promise is working a certain number of hours on a
certain thing but there is no guarantee that, or to what extent, the
thing is going to be achieved. Richard's proposal is the clearest here
("The result will be a version of Potlatch 2 that can be run on Mac and
Windows laptops"), whereas Jochen and Sarah only commit to working on
something, not to actually achieving it. This means we'll pay them no
matter what.

Now this is all fine because we have reason to believe that every one of
the three proposals will be a good investment and even if a goal could
not be achieved, the money would at least land with people who have done
a lot of volunteer stuff for OSM in the past. But the criteria are fuzzy
- why do we trust these three people that if we give them money to work
on something it will be worth it? Assume someone came along saying wait
a minute, I can do the same for half the money! And then we would say,
err, umm, sorry, no, we don't trust you in the same way we trust these
"trusted long-term volunteers".

Looking forward, it might become necessary to define deliverables more
clearly and make payment conditional on results having been achieved,
rather on time having been spent. But if you're lucky...

> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
> (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and
> budget management for such projects.

... the EWG can take over that job ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-07-31 Thread Heather Leson 
Hello

This is fantastic.

Heather


On Sat, 1 Aug 2020, 02:30 Guillaume Rischard, 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving infrastructure.
> During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make it,
> but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure” process, to
> learn how supporting osm infrastructure projects works well.
>
> The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
> trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have selected
> the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a new proposal
> from Nominatim.
>
> In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
> (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and budget
> management for such projects.
>
> The Board would like your feedback on these three specific infrastructure
> projects:
> Nominatim
>
> Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org and
> many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on:
> 
>
>-
>
>finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for
>different countries, localized address output)
>-
>
>making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of
>programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into separate
>repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an Ubuntu package,
>docs, docs, docs)
>
> The full proposal is at 
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07
>
> Potlatch 2
>
> Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While
> usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10
> million (1.2%) changes in 2020.
> 
>
> Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the
> year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who
> still rely on it can continue to use it.
>
> The full proposal is at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop
>
> osm2pgsql
>
> osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for
> applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or general
> analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org and in many other places.
> 
>
> While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql, large
> scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt are needed
> to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes easier.
>
> Jochen wants to work on:
>
>-
>
>Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org
>-
>
>Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and
>useful
>-
>
>Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code.
>-
>
>Ongoing maintenance as needed
>-
>
>Other work from the road map as time permits
>
> The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant framework.
> The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open issues and
> potential improvements further and better.
>
> The proposal is at
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07
>
>
>
> Thank you and happy mapping
>
> Guillaume, for the OSMF board
> ___
> osmf-talk mailing list
> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
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