Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:

> Martijn van Exel writes:
>  > Hi all,
>  >
>  > Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM. I
>  > think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you think.
>
> Something's wrong -- there aren't any missing roads in NY (anymore)!!
>

Try other states?  ;o)
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Russ Nelson]

Eric Ladner writes:
 > I see some just north of Utica.   dozens of dots over all of New York if I
 > zoom out.

Weird. I fixed some north of Utica. Are your dots possibly cached? Is
my lack of dots cached? Martijn?

Paul Johnson  writes:
 > Try other states?  ;o)

I don't know if you've noticed, but I stick to NY. It's big enough to
be a challenge, but small enough to say "I finished this." where
"this" is lakes, ponds, rivers, streams, boat ramps, interstates, and
railroads. My own county is a big enough challenge to get all its
county roads into relations. I need to start that project up again

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

I'll look into it.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 6:18 PM Russ Nelson  wrote:

> Eric Ladner writes:
>  > I see some just north of Utica.   dozens of dots over all of New York
> if I
>  > zoom out.
>
> Weird. I fixed some north of Utica. Are your dots possibly cached? Is
> my lack of dots cached? Martijn?
>
> Paul Johnson  writes:
>  > Try other states?  ;o)
>
> I don't know if you've noticed, but I stick to NY. It's big enough to
> be a challenge, but small enough to say "I finished this." where
> "this" is lakes, ponds, rivers, streams, boat ramps, interstates, and
> railroads. My own county is a big enough challenge to get all its
> county roads into relations. I need to start that project up again
>
> --
> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> Crynwr supports open source software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

Thanks, Greg, for your suggestions. I commented on most of them in the feedback 
forum (http://bit.ly/missing-roads-feedback) where you posted them as well, and 
I will follow up with the team to see what we can do about some if not all of 
them.

I hope the manual I published on Friday (http://bit.ly/missing-roads-manual) 
will help avoid some of the confusion you had for other mappers. 

Martijn


> On Oct 4, 2015, at 1:32 PM, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>> Marc — you should be able to click on the ‘mark as fixed’ (lock) and ‘mark
>> as invalid’ (exclamation mark) buttons in the missing roads panel after you
>> make the missing roads layer active and select one or more tiles. Let me
>> know if it doesn’t work for you.
>> 
>> Martijn
>> 
> 
> I drew a blank at first.  I performed the activation.  I opened the
> missing roads window but the lock was not enabled.  The key was to
> click on the Scout layer first, then you could right click on the tile
> to resolve the disposition in the missing roads window..  Unlike the
> todo plugin, you will not have a list of tiles in the missing roads
> window. Only the tile that you select in the Scout layer shows up.
> You have to zoom way out to see the red does, then zoom in to find the
> tiles.  I hope this information helps others.
> 
> Suggestions/comments:
> 1.) Examine OSM change sets to see if they resolve the tile but that
> may be a bit of work.  The new road may not coincide with the Scout
> GPS traces.
> 2.) Based on my initial misunderstanding and not closing the tiles, I
> was wondering how often will you update the layer.  Again I was not
> closing the tiles so I kept seeing the same open tiles thinking that
> the refresh cycle was a long one.  As I stated, I did not understand
> that I needed to close the tile.
> 3.) It would be helpful to put in a count of tiles in the red dot.  I
> was surprised to see some large red dots contain only three tiles
> while others contained many.  It did not feel like the intuitive dot
> size matched the actual size of the effort.
> 4.) The detailed scout tile window, for lack of better words, would be
> more useful, if I could use it to navigate from tile to tile verses
> all the zooming.   Moreover, if this window had a list like the todo
> plugin, it would enhance the navigation from tile to tile and thus the
> fun flow.  Activation of the layer would fill the window.  The window
> could be enhanced to add context menus to zoom to the next tile
> similar to the todo plugin.  Another option is to add tab with this
> functionality.  Here's the page for the todo plugin.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/TODO_list
> 
> Thanks for the plugin.  I found a major street segment that was
> deleted.  In the same area the major street was marked as proposed.
> Hence it looked like you'd have to drive miles out of your way to get
> to the same destination that was actually nearby on a straight line
> and at a high speed.
> 
> Regards,
> Greg


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 4 okt. 2015, om 21:32 heeft Greg Morgan  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
>> Marc — you should be able to click on the ‘mark as fixed’ (lock) and ‘mark
>> as invalid’ (exclamation mark) buttons in the missing roads panel after you
>> make the missing roads layer active and select one or more tiles. Let me
>> know if it doesn’t work for you.
>> 
>> Martijn
>> 
> 
> I drew a blank at first.  I performed the activation.  I opened the
> missing roads window but the lock was not enabled.  The key was to
> click on the Scout layer first, then you could right click on the tile
> to resolve the disposition in the missing roads window..  


Indeed that did it! I, too, stuck first with a none reacting missing roads 
window.

Thanks.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

Paul,
 
The GPS data is from Scout (US as well as Skobbler / Global) users. It is 
collected during navigation sessions as well as in Scout Global ‘free drive’ 
mode.

The fact that you see incomplete sets is to do with pretty high thresholds we 
set for the validity of a tile as a whole. We want to prevent that we present 
too many false positives that would make the experience frustrating.

It turns out that Scout is in fact used a fair bit by commercial drivers, so 
you’ll see a bunch of tiles depicting access=private service roads on factory 
lots and so on. There’s not really a great way for us to filter those out up 
front, other than convincing drivers to shut down their nav session before they 
enter a private road ;)

If you look closely you’ll also see traces from trains, airplanes etc. People 
use Scout in some places we had not really imagined! We try to filter these out 
based on speed and we’re improving the algorithm to filter out traces that 
match to railways in the future as well.

Thanks for sharing your observations!
Martijn

> On Sep 30, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM. I 
> think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you think. 
>  
> Neat, has potential.
> 
> You can read some more about it on my diary (http://bit.ly/missingroads 
> ) but it's basically what it says on the tin. The 
> plugin will show where we think roads are missing from OSM based on GPS data 
> so you can add them :)
> 
>  Based on whose GPS data from where?  I trust the source in this question is 
> completely halal, kosher, gluten-free, vegan, organic, free-range, 
> all-natural data, but some of the output I'm getting from it is rather odd.  
> Take, for example, this screenshot in JOSM near node 148319848 
>  in my 
> neighborhood.
> 
> 
> ​
> Other than highlighting my own inadvertently selective blindness (what with 
> having not mapped the large and aging chain link fence factory on the 
> northeast corner of the intersection; Brinks behind my favorite QuikTrip 
>  only 
> recently appeared on Bing), I do find two things remarkable about this 
> plugin's output:
> It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths relative to 
> imagery.
> I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS output 
> from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory, of course it's 
> fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was located on one of those big 
> diesel-powered forklifts.
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> The GPS data is from Scout (US as well as Skobbler / Global) users. It is
> collected during navigation sessions as well as in Scout Global ‘free
> drive’ mode.
>
> The fact that you see incomplete sets is to do with pretty high thresholds
> we set for the validity of a tile as a whole. We want to prevent that we
> present too many false positives that would make the experience frustrating.
>
> It turns out that Scout is in fact used a fair bit by commercial drivers,
> so you’ll see a bunch of tiles depicting access=private service roads on
> factory lots and so on. There’s not really a great way for us to filter
> those out up front, other than convincing drivers to shut down their nav
> session before they enter a private road ;)
>

I actually consider this a good thing since private roads are something
that are underserved right now.  It would be nice to be able to enable a
more complete data layer in order to see what was filtered out to avoid a
false positive, however, since it can be hard to determine if a driveway is
the one commonly used or if a driveway with a gate on it is manned or
simply there for the convenience of a fire crew to crash open in an
emergency (is my region the only one where fire trucks are equipped with
ramming bumpers and fire crews prepared to run over fences and locked
gates?)


> If you look closely you’ll also see traces from trains, airplanes etc.
> People use Scout in some places we had not really imagined! We try to
> filter these out based on speed and we’re improving the algorithm to filter
> out traces that match to railways in the future as well.
>

Granted, plane might not be very useful, but for the other modes, having
some kind of color coding to share what vehicle type is being used would be
awesome.

As a Scout user, I'd really find it handy if it had some of the warning
alarms and lane guidance that Osmand has...I'd really love to be able to
hold an Android app up as a real Garmin killer in terms of functionality.
Maybe include a truck mode where you can enter vehicle width, height,
weight and length so those restrictions can be taken into consideration as
well.  Osmand has a truck mode, given the people I've met on the road
driving a truck myself, I think Osmand in general is probably a lot too
fiddly for the segment of "commercial drivers who aren't GIS nerds", which
is only slightly larger than the segment of "commercial drivers who are not
me."
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Find missing roads

[Martijn van Exel]

:D

We may need to add this to the disclaimer: ‘may contain traces of nuts’!

Martijn

> On Sep 30, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:
> 
> Clearly, your sample contained nuts. 
> 
> 
> On September 30, 2015 2:40:37 PM EDT, Paul Johnson  
> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Martijn van Exel  > wrote:
> Our OSM team cooked up something new. A missing roads plugin for JOSM. I 
> think it's pretty nice but I would really like to hear what you think. 
>  
> Neat, has potential.
> 
> You can read some more about it on my diary (http://bit.ly/missingroads 
> ) but it's basically what it says on the tin. The 
> plugin will show where we think roads are missing from OSM based on GPS data 
> so you can add them :)
> 
>  Based on whose GPS data from where?  I trust the source in this question is 
> completely halal, kosher, gluten-free, vegan, organic, free-range, 
> all-natural data, but some of the output I'm getting from it is rather odd.  
> Take, for example, this screenshot in JOSM near node 148319848 
>  in my 
> neighborhood.
> 
> 
> ​
> Other than highlighting my own inadvertently selective blindness (what with 
> having not mapped the large and aging chain link fence factory on the 
> northeast corner of the intersection; Brinks behind my favorite QuikTrip 
>  only 
> recently appeared on Bing), I do find two things remarkable about this 
> plugin's output:
> It seems to have picked out an incomplete set based on the paths relative to 
> imagery.
> I have no way of being able to survey the exact location of the GPS output 
> from the plugin from the ground (it's inside a fence factory, of course it's 
> fenced off!), so I can only assume the GPS was located on one of those big 
> diesel-powered forklifts.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto-spell technology.
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