Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
Hyperbole? Not at all. It appears in just the one changeset, 57914505, this user created approximately 5,800 untagged nodes. The user was contacted, but does not respond. There are 6-8 new users who just started editing in and around Denver. Circumstantial evidence seems to indicagte they are part of a team in that they all started about the same time, their edits are remarkably similar and they all use the same changeset comment, "adding parking". They don't respond to changeset comments.In this changeset (not Denver), the user created some odd lines. Maybe they mean something, but I don't understand them. If the user replied, it would help to understand the user's edits. This does not look like, "added parking". I'm not hating on new users. I would love for them to join OSM and help map. All I'm saying is that there is a new group of mappers who are creating poor edits and will not communicate.https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?changeset=57918111#map=17/33.10686/-117.18078-Original Message- From: Greg Morgan <dr.kludge...@gmail.com> Sent: Apr 23, 2018 11:10 AM To: "ajt1...@gmail.com" <ajt1...@gmail.com> Cc: Talk <talk@openstreetmap.org> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 11:42 PM, ajt1...@gmail.com <ajt1...@gmail.com> wrote: On 23/04/2018 03:40, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote: I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area. What'd really help matters would be if local mappers could comment on changesets by new mappers (both "good" and "bad"). I see that someone's already commented on a couple of the "thousands of node additions" that you're presumably referring to here (if that was you - thanks!), but often locals are by far the best people to say "that doesn't look correct". See https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/57929974 for an example near me by one of the "organised" mappers that alerted GB and DE mappers to the problems there. See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736Okay so Jack fully supports Nakaner. He reports that 6-8 users are creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area. If we look at the node that Jack is pointing to, then we will see that Victoria1901, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Victoria1901 has made 30 edits. There are zero blocks against her. Hyperbole! Hyperbole! So she didn't draw in the way. Honestly, are we going to grow new mappers or not. We have to let new people fail. That's part of the learning process. In the same area is chachafish, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chachafish. The user has 124,710 edits. Is there something that you don't like? So have I covered two of the 6-8 editors messing up Denver Colorado?Regards,Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
Hi, Am 23.04.18 um 09:10 schrieb Greg Morgan: Okay so Jack fully supports Nakaner. He reports that 6-8 users are creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area. If we look at the node that Jack is pointing to, then we will see that Victoria1901, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Victoria1901 has made 30 edits. There are zero blocks against her. Hyperbole! Hyperbole! [...] She/he has been blocked: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Victoria1901/blocks Furthermore, her commented changesets are quite usefull: https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=7787732 Last but not least, always good to check: https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Victoria1901 All the best, Pascal ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 11:42 PM, ajt1...@gmail.comwrote: > On 23/04/2018 03:40, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote: > > I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a > mess in the Denver, Colorado area. > > > What'd really help matters would be if local mappers could comment on > changesets by new mappers (both "good" and "bad"). I see that someone's > already commented on a couple of the "thousands of node additions" that > you're presumably referring to here (if that was you - thanks!), but often > locals are by far the best people to say "that doesn't look correct". See > https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/57929974 for an example near me by > one of the "organised" mappers that alerted GB and DE mappers to the > problems there. > > > See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node= > 5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736 > > Okay so Jack fully supports Nakaner. He reports that 6-8 users are creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area. If we look at the node that Jack is pointing to, then we will see that Victoria1901, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Victoria1901 has made 30 edits. There are zero blocks against her. Hyperbole! Hyperbole! So she didn't draw in the way. Honestly, are we going to grow new mappers or not. We have to let new people fail. That's part of the learning process. In the same area is chachafish, https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chachafish. The user has 124,710 edits. Is there something that you don't like? So have I covered two of the 6-8 editors messing up Denver Colorado? Regards, Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On 23/04/2018 03:40, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote: I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area. What'd really help matters would be if local mappers could comment on changesets by new mappers (both "good" and "bad"). I see that someone's already commented on a couple of the "thousands of node additions" that you're presumably referring to here (if that was you - thanks!), but often locals are by far the best people to say "that doesn't look correct". See https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/57929974 for an example near me by one of the "organised" mappers that alerted GB and DE mappers to the problems there. See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736 That actually appears to be by a mapper using a different process (JOSM) but adding things in some of the same areas (LA, Denver) as the other group. Best Regards, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com < jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote: > I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a > mess in the Denver, Colorado area. > > See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node= > 5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736 > I cannot tell. What is it that these six to eight mappers are doing? Are these the same six to eight mappers that are receiving blocks? Regards, Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a mess in the Denver, Colorado area.See here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736-Original Message->From: EthnicFood IsGreat>Sent: Apr 22, 2018 11:28 PM>To: talk...@openstreetmap.org>Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair>>> As a member of the US community, I'm in favor of reverting the bad >> edits, even if it removes some good contributions.>> Mark - Message: 1>> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 13:27:14 + (UTC)>> From: Mikel Maron >> To: Michael Reichert , Talk-us>> >> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair>> Message-ID: <232049907.3007698.1524317234...@mail.yahoo.com>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white !important; } Nakaner>> This is an epic effort and appreciated.>> But there are two things that need to be cleared up.>>> The choice was to either accept that OSM>> is overrun by a army of sockpuppets who ignore us at all or to make the>> time/money they invest into editing a waste of time/money by reverting their edits even if it removes good contributions. That's sad but what is the alternative? It's not a binary choice. The alternative is to establish good dialogue with the communities you are monitoring (the US on this case), and make sure there is awareness and buy in to your proposed action. I don't think that would be difficult or time consuming but does take consideration of other mappers in OSM who you don't regularly communicate with.>>> There is no formal policy yet but that doesn't mean that they can do what they want to do. If it is against the interests of the community, it's against the existing unwritten rules.>> There is no such thing that gives anyone the right for large scale vigilante actions. There is enough justification to potentially take action (after discussion and with proper communication) -- sock puppets for one -- that you don't need to invoke organized editing. If and when we do have a policy, we in the osmf will also need to develop clear guidance on how it is communicated and implemented. Mikel On Friday, April 20, 2018, 8:22 PM, Michael Reichert wrote: Hi, Am 20.04.2018 um 17:13 schrieb Ian Dees:>>> I noticed that user Nakaner-repair just reverted 1000+ changesets>>> throughout the United States without any discussion in the local community.>>> Nakaner-repair points to a thread in the German forum [0] that seems to>>> indicate that they think these edits were made by paid mappers. Having not>>> heard from those suspected paid mappers, they went ahead and reverted>>> without discussion from the local community.>> TL;DR A group of mappers (presumeably from UTC+5) started adding>> highway=service and doing wrong quality assurance on roads in Europe and>> the U.S. in mid/end of March. British and later German mappers found>> these strange edits last week, some German searched for more accounts,>> SomeoneElse and myself wrote changeset comments and SomeoneElse (DWG)>> blocked many on them. Unfortunately, the 0-hour user blocks are not as useful as they are>> usually (and I expected them to be). They have been ignored and they>> continued editing or created sockpuppets. Longer blocks were ignored and>> they continued editing after the block. Changeset comments were not>> answered or the response did not answer the question. Since this week, they don't do any QA on roads any more and only add>> highway=service in the U.S. They create new accounts if their old>> accounts are blocked. This pattern now repeats day by day and the last>> resort was to revert their work because that causes financial damage (I>> hope they get paid). Please see some inline comments/responses on Ian's questions below. ->> The full story: On 2018-03-29 Will Phillips writes to the Talk-gb mailing list that he>> observed "a series of edits with users removing or changing access and>> oneway tags". He describes the quality of these edits as "very poor". At>> that time "none of them has yet responded to changeset comments".>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2018-March/021259.html SomeoneElse suggests him to write an email to d...@osmfoundation.org>> (the DWG).>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2018-March/021260.html I am not subscribed to Talk-gb and did not notice it at that time. On 2018-04-09 tux67 creates a new thread on the German forum because he>> found two users (sri_harsha and Premsakhare) editing roads globally>> without local knowledge. He asks other
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On Friday 20 April 2018, Clifford Snow wrote: > [...] > > Nakaner post a changeset comment which impart said: > > you seem to be part of a paid/organized/commercial editing activity. > We have been telling your workmates for more than one week that you > must add a note to your profile page at openstreetmap.org which > states which company/organisation you belong to, who pays you for > editing and which software, technology and rules you use to determine > which roads you edit. You can edit the content of your user profile > page via your user settings at openstreetmap.org. > > > Please add that information and answer all questions before you > upload any further edits to OpenStreetMap! Otherwise I will revert > all your edits! Yes, i saw that. Note however none of this played a role in the discussion on the German forum. IMO in cases where mappers do not react to attempts at communication at all this is a general problem not specific to organized/directed editing activities. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Christoph Hormannwrote: > On Friday 20 April 2018, Ian Dees wrote: > > > > I'd be interested in seeing all of these reverts reverted (at least > > in the US) until discussion can take place. > > I don't know about these changes or the reverts of them in detail but on > a general note here: If mappers find edits they consider > questionable - either factually or methodologically - and attempts to > get in contact with the mapper making those edits fail it is commonly > accepted practice that mappers can revert such changes. This happens > every day many times all over the world and is a good way to reduce the > workload of the DWG by not getting them involved in all the small > matters mappers can resolve between each other. > Nakaner post a changeset comment which impart said: you seem to be part of a paid/organized/commercial editing activity. We have been telling your workmates for more than one week that you must add a note to your profile page at openstreetmap.org which states which company/organisation you belong to, who pays you for editing and which software, technology and rules you use to determine which roads you edit. You can edit the content of your user profile page via your user settings at openstreetmap.org. Please add that information and answer all questions before you upload any further edits to OpenStreetMap! Otherwise I will revert all your edits! The user in question, a first time editor, added some service roads, alleys, driveways and business service roads. They were all good. But my concern is twofold. First the edits all look good. Yes they should have added service= type, but that's not uncommon with a new mapper. There is no good reason to revert. Second, as far as I know the Directed Edits Policy has not been approved. Nakaner is attempting to enforce a policy before it become a policy. > If what the discussion on the German forum indicates is accurate, i.e. > that there is a group of mappers performing organized edits which > reject attempts to contact them and evade blocks established to ensure > they do not continue without getting in contact with the community by > creating sockpuppet accounts, i am pretty sure the local US community > does not want this to continue in their domain and how to best > accompish that would be a good subject of discussion. > None of us like users that don't respond to changeset comments, especially when we know they are paid mappers. I mostly think of the SEO firms dropping nodes with incomplete and often wrong information. Our efforts to stop those have failed. The most infamous, what I called the "Updated" SEO, uses a different user name with every edit. They may be doing this to avoid disruption by users and especially DWG. I think it is time for a new approach. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On Friday 20 April 2018, Mikel Maron wrote: > > [...]Nakaner seems to be > applying an organized editing policy here without grounds. While you might think this is a good example for why such a policy is needed it seems to me that the motivation for both the user blocks by the DWG and the main argument that led to the conclusion in the German forum that the edits should be reverted was that the mappers in question did not react to attempts to contact them. > While you are probably correct that the US community does not want > this kind of behavior,, as far as I can tell no one was consulted > outside of the German forum discussion, where the US community does > not tend to hang out -- so I'm not sure you should just make this > assumption. [...] As said i don't want to assess Nakaners actions here. If the edits in question have a clear focus on or are limited to the US is would probably have been a good idea to approach the US community about them. But keep in mind that the thread in the German forum was started because a German speaking mapper came across questionable edits. It is completely all right to start a discussion on the German forum on that - after all we do not even have a German language channel with global scope which might have been a better place for that. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
> If mappers find edits they consider questionable - either factually or >methodologically - and attempts to get in contact with the mapper making those >edits fail it is commonly accepted practice that mappers can revert such >changes While that is somewhat correct (I question how common or accepted or in what cases a revert is called for, but anyway...), that's not what's happening as far as I understand. All edits are being reverted without evaluation of their individual merit. Nakaner seems to be applying an organized editing policy here without grounds. We do not have an official policy, nor do we have guidance on how this kind of situation would be managed. I am not saying there is not an issue here with the edits by these mappers and this group. Just that this action by Nakaner does not look to be particularly well thought through. > i am pretty sure the local US community does not want this to continue in >their domain and how to best accomplish that would be a good subject of >discussion While you are probably correct that the US community does not want this kind of behavior,, as far as I can tell no one was consulted outside of the German forum discussion, where the US community does not tend to hang out -- so I'm not sure you should just make this assumption. How best to accomplish this would actually be a good subject of discussion, but _before_ a mass action such as the one Nakaner has deputized himself to do. -Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron On Friday, April 20, 2018, 12:30:02 PM EDT, Christoph Hormannwrote: On Friday 20 April 2018, Ian Dees wrote: > > I'd be interested in seeing all of these reverts reverted (at least > in the US) until discussion can take place. I don't know about these changes or the reverts of them in detail but on a general note here: If mappers find edits they consider questionable - either factually or methodologically - and attempts to get in contact with the mapper making those edits fail it is commonly accepted practice that mappers can revert such changes. This happens every day many times all over the world and is a good way to reduce the workload of the DWG by not getting them involved in all the small matters mappers can resolve between each other. OTOH reverting an edit, even if that edit itself is a revert, without trying to discuss it with the mapper making it, is generally not considered to be acceptable. I don't want to assess Nakaner's edits with that but your call for a blanket revert of them without a previous discussion giving him the chance to explain his intentions with those edits and their merit would not be in line with established practice in OSM. If what the discussion on the German forum indicates is accurate, i.e. that there is a group of mappers performing organized edits which reject attempts to contact them and evade blocks established to ensure they do not continue without getting in contact with the community by creating sockpuppet accounts, i am pretty sure the local US community does not want this to continue in their domain and how to best accompish that would be a good subject of discussion. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair
On Friday 20 April 2018, Ian Dees wrote: > > I'd be interested in seeing all of these reverts reverted (at least > in the US) until discussion can take place. I don't know about these changes or the reverts of them in detail but on a general note here: If mappers find edits they consider questionable - either factually or methodologically - and attempts to get in contact with the mapper making those edits fail it is commonly accepted practice that mappers can revert such changes. This happens every day many times all over the world and is a good way to reduce the workload of the DWG by not getting them involved in all the small matters mappers can resolve between each other. OTOH reverting an edit, even if that edit itself is a revert, without trying to discuss it with the mapper making it, is generally not considered to be acceptable. I don't want to assess Nakaner's edits with that but your call for a blanket revert of them without a previous discussion giving him the chance to explain his intentions with those edits and their merit would not be in line with established practice in OSM. If what the discussion on the German forum indicates is accurate, i.e. that there is a group of mappers performing organized edits which reject attempts to contact them and evade blocks established to ensure they do not continue without getting in contact with the community by creating sockpuppet accounts, i am pretty sure the local US community does not want this to continue in their domain and how to best accompish that would be a good subject of discussion. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk