Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Mike Thompson]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 5:23 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> > The terms cover data distribution, ie downloading from
> > planet.openstreetmap.org so you need to go through those terms to obtain
> > OSM data regardless of the ODbL.
>
> Really?  That's huge news compared to the data being under ODbL.  And,
> once once gets the data under ODbL, it can be redistributed, and there's
> no requirement that I see to impose the Website Terms on others.
>
 "The ODbL allows you to use the OSM data for any purpose you like. This
includes personal, community, educational, commercial or governmental." [0]

If this isn't the case, then the above referenced OSMF page should be
edited to reflect this.

Mike


[0]
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#1.3._What_can_I_do_with_the_OSM_Data
?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Greg Troxel]

Andrew Harvey  writes:

> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 2:09 am Greg Troxel,  wrote:
>
>> rob potter  writes:
>>
>> As others pointed out those are website terms.  You want to use the
>> data, not the website, and you should read the Open Database License.
>>
>
> The terms cover data distribution, ie downloading from
> planet.openstreetmap.org so you need to go through those terms to obtain
> OSM data regardless of the ODbL.

Really?  That's huge news compared to the data being under ODbL.  And,
once once gets the data under ODbL, it can be redistributed, and there's
no requirement that I see to impose the Website Terms on others.

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Re: [talk-au] [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Davidson]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 8:57 AM Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> The terms cover data distribution, ie downloading from 
> planet.openstreetmap.org so you need to go through those terms to obtain OSM 
> data regardless of the ODbL.

Which can be found here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

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Re: [talk-au] [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 2:09 am Greg Troxel,  wrote:

> rob potter  writes:
>
> As others pointed out those are website terms.  You want to use the
> data, not the website, and you should read the Open Database License.
>

The terms cover data distribution, ie downloading from
planet.openstreetmap.org so you need to go through those terms to obtain
OSM data regardless of the ODbL.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Andrew Harvey]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 2:09 am Greg Troxel,  wrote:

> rob potter  writes:
>
> As others pointed out those are website terms.  You want to use the
> data, not the website, and you should read the Open Database License.
>

The terms cover data distribution, ie downloading from
planet.openstreetmap.org so you need to go through those terms to obtain
OSM data regardless of the ODbL.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[Greg Troxel]

rob potter  writes:

> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data use
> is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*

As others pointed out those are website terms.  You want to use the
data, not the website, and you should read the Open Database License.

1) As you go down this path, think about the relationship between

  the data is authoritative (which is a procedural/legal attribute)

  the data is accurate

  the data can be fixed easily when it is not accurate

Authoritative data is not necessarily better.  Yes, OSM can be modified
by random people but that does not mean that on balance it is lower
quality.

2) Anyone is welcome to improve OSM.  When doing so, OSM's norms should
be followed.  It is abusive to change OSM contrary to OSM norms to suit
your purposes.  (You didn't say this, but it happens.)  A typical
example is "Land Manager X does not want trail Y to show on the map".
OSM maps reality.  If you want to edit OSM, the local community I'm sure
can help and you are in the right place.

It is ok to add attributes and render a map that omits trails that are
not maintained by land managers for your own purposes (and to publish
it).  It's really "remove trail from database" that is not ok.

It would be entirely reasonable if you find things that are wrong to add
notes.  Create an account (people have accounts, not orgs) so you have
accepted the Contributor Terms and others can rely on the note content.
Train people on what those terms mean, in terms of not entering
copyrighted information and not copying for other maps.  It's really
hard to get through to people that taking information from Google Maps
is not ok, partly becauase people use Google Maps without reading and
understanding their terms.  (Really you should have your lawyers review
the Google Terms and probably require training for your people before
they are allowed to use that.)

3) Your use of data is welcome.  If you modify the data -- to produce a
curated/checked version -- then you should

  a) be clear that people are using OSM-Victoria or some such,
  especially since at any given time things will be right on OSM
  (because they were just fixed) and wrong in your data.

  b) If you distribute modified  data you must make the underlying
  database available

  c) If you modify/curate and don't distribute, it would be polite to
  make the modified database available (as in just download with no
  registration, no agreements).  If you are not going to be willing to
  do this, then it is socially probably best for you not to use OSM
  data (my opinion, probably shared in part, not shared in part).
  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[john whelan]

I think the issue is more fit for the purpose.

For critical work the OSM database cannot be relied upon.  We have too many
inexperienced mappers who can inadvertantly corrupt the map.  There are
processes to allow an area to be watched so a mapper can double check any
changes in a specific area.  The map is vandalised from time to time.  The
DWG does a great job but the problem is it cannot be relied upon 100% of
the time as errors will be present until they are removed.

Having said that Stats Canada is quite happy to use building data in Canada
on the basis it is the best available.

So it's better than nowt.  It's fairly easy to add Open Data to it either
directly or download a sample and mix the open data in that way.  I think
some if the NGOs work like that.

The wording is probably to protect OSM from law suits, we don't guarantee
the quality of the data will be good enough for your purposes.

You can run your own database by the way.  Grab a chunk of the map and run
your own updates into it.  This has the advantage that you can use all the
OSM tools and is reasonably well documented.

Going the Legal Working Group path can be lengthy.  They are practically
all volunteers and they have a back log.

So do your TRA (Threat Risk Analysis) and see what you think.  Remember
lawyers are paid to be cautious.

Cheerio John

On Thu, Feb 9, 2023, 19:43 rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
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[OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

[rob potter]

Hi,

I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki

and
we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.

*Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data use
is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
started using the information but we are implementing a system of
validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
other agency consumption.*
*Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
doing so); or"*

Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
problems later.

Thanks,

Rob
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