Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On 16.09.2010 02:54, Dave F. wrote: Personally, I want facts on how to use OSM, not opinions (Lord, as if i don't get enough of those on this forum :-) ). [...] I bet there's something in the wiki I haven't discovered yet, but I'm not going to have to fork out £$ to find it. 4: Books can go into University libraries and onto GIS course reading lists. A big one, I would imagine, for OSM. Really? Apart from some really old fashion kudos, why? Who thinks, Hmm... i need to learn about OSM, so I'm off to my Local Uni library. Who, apart from the students, is actually allowed to enter said library? Anyway, surely Universities have online library reading lists? If not then they're a bit out dated. Books are a massively positive thing - they demonstrate a healthy and productive OSM ecosystem and a growth in adoption. More books please! I fail to see how charging for regurgitated data (as confirmed by Frederik) is positive or productive. You are right in one way - and completely wrong in another. The Scientific community often relies on secured facts and while of course the wiki contains everything and more than a book can tell, books published and edited in the old fashioned way are considered by these people as more reliable, while the OSM wiki - like wikipedia and lot more internet sources - is seen as unreliably: You don't have an author you can point on by name. In that sense sources are accepted often with the minimum requirement of having - real name of an author/editor responsible for the facts. - publishing date - where to get the information to check back. I know of permanent links in mediawiki - the science community seems to know not. I know of totally wrong book contents - the science community likes to ignore that cases, wherever possible, while comparing (mostly uncommented) books and papers to living, commented wikis. I think, that will change in the next tens of years - but I'm sure, books are a good thing to spread knowledge about OSM and usages wider. If a book motivates a scientist - or a reading mapper with less internet activity to start contributing, it's a good thing. If the content is out of date he/she has to get more actual knowledge in the wikis, but it's not wrong because it's a book. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Dave, Dave F. wrote: I fail to see how charging for regurgitated data (as confirmed by Frederik) is positive or productive. Firstly, lots of people pay money for OSM data (e.g. OSM Garmin maps regularly sell for €20 on eBay). That in itself is positive because it proves that OSM is actually worth something to them. And it isn't that these people pay money for nothing - they pay for someone selecting the right SD card and the right IMG file, copying the file onto the card, making a nice package and a little documentation and shipping it to them, and probably even being available on the phone if there's a problem with the product. In a way, this is the ideal form of commerce - if you have money and don't want to spend the time, buy the ready-made SD card; if you don't have money and can afford to spend the time, here's the document on the Wiki that says how to do it without spending a penny. It's the consumer's choice, and if the producer wants to sell his product he better had to make it worth the money. It's the same with the book. You can buy it if you like the convenience it brings - the information being neatly and coherently organised, selected, professionally reviewed and proof-read. If you don't want to fork out money for that editorial work, you don't have to; you can do the organising and selecting yourself. It is even likely that there are people who wouldn't bother using OSM at all if there wasn't a ready-made SD card available for them to buy. In Germany, where the book has been selling for 2.5 years now, many people have definitely taken OSM more seriously when they saw there was a proper book about it - *especially* those outside of the technophile community whom we often have difficulty to reach out to. (Btw. I think you have slightly misinterpreted me when I said that the book hardly contains anything that hasn't been said here in the last years. You interpreted that as the book regurgitating mailing list posts, when in fact it often was the other way round. The German book, on which this English edition is based, has been around for 2.5 years now, and often I had researched something for the book initially and then regurgitated the book content on the lists when the question popped up here.) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Am 16.09.2010 02:54, schrieb Dave F.: I bet there's something in the wiki I haven't discovered yet, but I'm not going to have to fork out £$ to find it. Hey, no prob - just don't buy a book. I don't read books on IT neither because I can't sit and read without playing around at the same time, but a lot of people do and we have to accept that there is a need for books on OSM. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On Sep 15, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Steve Chilton wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ OpenGeoData post about it: http://opengeodata.org/osm-book-available-in-english Also available via amazon.com and shortly via amazon.co.uk Cheers STEVE Thanks for this awesome contribution! Dane ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:54:26 -0700 Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote: Apologies for living in the real world, but why do I need a highly priced printed book for information that is, or should be, available to all *free* of charge on line (apart from internet charges, obviously) for a *free* *open* crowd-sourcing project such as OSM? Because books are awesome. See also: I like books I'll buy one. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
It does - as far as I know - still generate income for project. 80n may be best person to answer that as I believe agreement was established when he was OSMF Treasurer. If it is we should perhaps be pushing it more as many Amazon purchases must be made over the OSM community Cheers STEVE -Original Message- From: Ed Loach [mailto:e...@loach.me.uk] Sent: 15 September 2010 21:55 To: Steve Chilton; talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published Steve wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ OpenGeoData post about it: http://opengeodata.org/osm-book- available-in-english Also available via amazon.com and shortly via amazon.co.uk And does the Amazon (UK only) link here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon still generate 5% commission for the project, do you know? Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
I handed it over to Andy Robinson. I don't know whether he has passed it off to the new treasurer, but it was an excellent scheme. On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Steve Chilton s.l.chil...@mdx.ac.ukwrote: It does - as far as I know - still generate income for project. 80n may be best person to answer that as I believe agreement was established when he was OSMF Treasurer. If it is we should perhaps be pushing it more as many Amazon purchases must be made over the OSM community Cheers STEVE -Original Message- From: Ed Loach [mailto:e...@loach.me.uk] Sent: 15 September 2010 21:55 To: Steve Chilton; talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published Steve wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ OpenGeoData post about it: http://opengeodata.org/osm-book- available-in-english Also available via amazon.com and shortly via amazon.co.uk And does the Amazon (UK only) link here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon still generate 5% commission for the project, do you know? Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Steve Chilton wrote: It does - as far as I know - still generate income for project. 80n may be best person to answer that as I believe agreement was established when he was OSMF Treasurer. If it is we should perhaps be pushing it more as many Amazon purchases must be made over the OSM community Is it possible to have such a deal with amazon.de? The german community is big. And only the shopping from me would bring a nice benefit to the OSMF. :-) Christian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Hi I'm obviously on a loosing wicket with this one. Feel free to buy the book if you wish, even though you've the data to hand right in front of you. I never said books were wrong, just pointless in this case. Frederik: All information in the book ...is already available for free on the OSM wiki Sounds like regurgitation to me. The fallacy that there's more errors online than in print is perpetuated by protectionists of those involved in the publication industry. When an error occurs in, say, the Oxford English Dictionary, how long does it take to get amended? A lot longer than a wiki. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
2010/9/16 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com: Really? Apart from some really old fashion kudos, why? Who thinks, Hmm... i need to learn about OSM, so I'm off to my Local Uni library. Who, apart from the students, is actually allowed to enter said library? in Germany everybody can register (sometimes for a small fee, say 10 EUR) to said libraries and use them for free. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
2010/9/16 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com: When an error occurs in, say, the Oxford English Dictionary, how long does it take to get amended? A lot longer than a wiki. and still most people, when it comes to reliability of information, prefer the Oxford English Dictionary. Strange, isn't it? It must have something to do with the process of putting this information together. While it might be very fast to correct errors in a wiki, there will be 10 new ones at the same time ;-). Everybody can at any time write stuff in a wiki, but only experts are admitted for the Oxford English Dictionary. Both has pros and cons. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On 16 September 2010 16:23, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: The fallacy that there's more errors online than in print is perpetuated by protectionists of those involved in the publication industry. When an error occurs in, say, the Oxford English Dictionary, how long does it take to get amended? A lot longer than a wiki. Or the language is amended and it becomes the new standard English, in that sense the OED is always correct ;-) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Hi, Dave F. wrote: Frederik: All information in the book ...is already available for free on the OSM wiki I don't think that's true. There's stuff on the lists or in various read-me files that is not on the Wiki. That's why my original quote was: All information in the book - and even much more than that - is already available for free on the OSM wiki and in various read-mes and tons of mailing list posts. Sounds like regurgitation to me. I have already pointed out to you that my above statement is true not least because I would often repeat something I have written in the book as a response to a question on the mailing list. I'm surprised that you seem to complain - would you like me to to hold back with an answer on the mailing list and say: You could buy my book which has the answer to this? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ OpenGeoData post about it: http://opengeodata.org/osm-book-available-in-english Also available via amazon.com and shortly via amazon.co.uk Cheers STEVE http://bit.ly/cj65Rm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Steve wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ OpenGeoData post about it: http://opengeodata.org/osm-book- available-in-english Also available via amazon.com and shortly via amazon.co.uk And does the Amazon (UK only) link here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merchandise#Amazon still generate 5% commission for the project, do you know? Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On 15/09/2010 19:39, Steve Chilton wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ Apologies for living in the real world, but why do I need a highly priced printed book for information that is, or should be, available to all *free* of charge on line (apart from internet charges, obviously) for a *free* *open* crowd-sourcing project such as OSM? Regards Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On Sep 15, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Dave F. wrote: On 15/09/2010 19:39, Steve Chilton wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ Apologies for living in the real world, but why do I need a highly priced printed book for information that is, or should be, available to all *free* of charge on line (apart from internet charges, obviously) for a *free* *open* crowd-sourcing project such as OSM? Because books are awesome. See also: http://booktwo.org/notebook/wikipedia-historiography/ -mike. michal migurski- m...@stamen.com 415.558.1610 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
I've not seen the book, but I have bought books before on subjects that were covered by free resources online. Books, I'm sure, are a good idea: 1: There is a lot of free stuff available out there on the Internet - a printed book, by an author or three, provides a handy reference to the most relevant material. This is something you can pick up and use. The wiki, on the other hand, has a lot of good stuff, but also a great deal of cruft. If it's not on the wiki, you may find yourself managing reams of bookmarks to the thing you need. A book can provide an edited relief to this. 2: A book provides a historiography: It says something about the opinions of the people that wrote it. If you value the opinions of the authors, you should consider buying the book. 3: A printed book on a subject that is available online will invariably teach you something new about the subject. The thing it teaches you may be online, for free, already, but I would bet money that there's something new in the book that you haven't seen. 4: Books can go into University libraries and onto GIS course reading lists. A big one, I would imagine, for OSM. Perhaps we should ask why, in this Internet age, do we need newpapers, TV, radio and pubs? Can't all these things be replaced by Google News, YouTube, Spotify and IRC? Books are a massively positive thing - they demonstrate a healthy and productive OSM ecosystem and a growth in adoption. More books please! Cheers, Joseph On 16 September 2010 00:38, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 15/09/2010 19:39, Steve Chilton wrote: OpenStreetMap: Using, and Contributing to, the Free World Map (Paperback, in English) by Ramm/Topf/Chilton will be available in 5 days. Pre-order at discount http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781906860110/ Apologies for living in the real world, but why do I need a highly priced printed book for information that is, or should be, available to all *free* of charge on line (apart from internet charges, obviously) for a *free* *open* crowd-sourcing project such as OSM? Regards Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
Dave, Dave F. wrote: Apologies for living in the real world, but why do I need a highly priced printed book for information that is, or should be, available to all *free* of charge on line (apart from internet charges, obviously) for a *free* *open* crowd-sourcing project such as OSM? You are totally right. All information in the book - and even much more than that - is already available for free on the OSM wiki and in various read-mes and tons of mailing list posts. I'm pretty sure that the book doesn't contain anything that has not been written by someone on these mailing lists in the past few years. (And being a major contributor to the book as well as to the mailing lists, I am part responsible for that.) The book form is just a convenience format for those who prefer being brought the information rather than fetching it for themselves. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM book in English published
On 16/09/2010 01:08, Joseph Reeves wrote: I've not seen the book, but I have bought books before on subjects that were covered by free resources online. Books, I'm sure, are a good idea: 1: There is a lot of free stuff available out there on the Internet - a printed book, by an author or three, provides a handy reference to the most relevant material. This is something you can pick up and use. The wiki, on the other hand, has a lot of good stuff, but also a great deal of cruft. If it's not on the wiki, you may find yourself managing reams of bookmarks to the thing you need. A book can provide an edited relief to this. There appears to be a couple of unproven assumptions in that point. 2: A book provides a historiography: It says something about the opinions of the people that wrote it. If you value the opinions of the authors, you should consider buying the book. Personally, I want facts on how to use OSM, not opinions (Lord, as if i don't get enough of those on this forum :-) ). 3: A printed book on a subject that is available online will invariably teach you something new about the subject. The thing it teaches you may be online, for free, already, but I would bet money that there's something new in the book that you haven't seen. I bet there's something in the wiki I haven't discovered yet, but I'm not going to have to fork out £$ to find it. 4: Books can go into University libraries and onto GIS course reading lists. A big one, I would imagine, for OSM. Really? Apart from some really old fashion kudos, why? Who thinks, Hmm... i need to learn about OSM, so I'm off to my Local Uni library. Who, apart from the students, is actually allowed to enter said library? Anyway, surely Universities have online library reading lists? If not then they're a bit out dated. Perhaps we should ask why, in this Internet age, do we need newpapers, TV, We don't. Have you not seen the declining viewing/reading figures? radio and pubs? Radio figures are stable or even increasing due to internet usage. Can't all these things be replaced by Google News, YouTube, Spotify and IRC? IRC is selling alcohol? Wow, when did that happen? Books are a massively positive thing - they demonstrate a healthy and productive OSM ecosystem and a growth in adoption. More books please! I fail to see how charging for regurgitated data (as confirmed by Frederik) is positive or productive. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
