Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[John Eldredge]

A lot of pharmacies in the USA serve as general merchandise stores, as well 
as selling prescription and nonprescription medicines, bandages, etc. The 
Walgreens Drugstore near my home sells food, cosmetics, toys, cell phone 
accessories, household tools, and many other items.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On October 31, 2015 8:34:44 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:


Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:


sent from a phone


Am 31.10.2015 um 00:22 schrieb Philip Barnes :

Pharmacists don't technically sell medicines they dispense it and
sometimes collect a flat rate fee, if you are of working age and live
in England.


It's quite different in the US.   Besides paying for prescription
medication (often with insurance, but still) a place called a pharmacy
will have a variety of non-prescription medication and various
associated stuff (bandages).

So shop makes more sense than office, and here office makes no to little
sense at all.

I realize there's shop=chemist, but that seem to be a uk/europe vs US thing.

However, the real issue is that the tags in use should be rendered.  If
a tag is not used much and it's dropped, that's fine, but using the
stylesheet to force retagging of things in wide use would be
inappropriate.  I haven't seen the underlying data on tag frequency
brought into the debate; arguably that should be the core of the
discussion.


THEY do sell some stuff as well, but so do the library and post office.



there is surely a huge difference in volume between the stuff a
pharmacy sells besides dispensing medicine and the stuff a library or
a post office sell, making it more of an edge case, at least around
here (and that's still Europe). Anyway, I don't oppose
amenity=pharmacy as the preferred tag.


In the US, a pharmacy basically sells things, including some things that
require a special license to sell.   library and post office do sell
some things, but are not primarily shops in that sense.




--
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 02.11.2015 16:47, Nicolás Alvarez napisał(a):


It seems my message has been ignored so I'm bumping it again.

This thread is called "Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0". The map
style is doing the right thing with respect to pharmacies (renders
most used tag). Nothing else to discuss here. If you disagree with
amenity=pharmacy being the correct tag, take it to another thread.
It's basic mailing list netiquette.


Just a small cross-reference note - there was already a discussion which 
showed that we don't even know the difference between "amenity" and 
"shop":


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-August/026102.html

--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Nicolás Alvarez]

2015-11-01 10:54 GMT-03:00  :
>
>> El 1/11/2015, a las 9:39, Max  escribió:
>>
>>> On 2015년 11월 01일 20:51, Richard wrote:
>>> not long ago (maybe even today?) pharmacies  were not only selling goods but
>>> also producing many kinds of ointments and possibly other things as ordered
>>> by the prescribing physician.
>>>
>>> So "shop" would be a too narrow definition.
>>
>> With that argument you should also change stuff like shop=florist,
>> because they aren't just selling the flowers they buy in bulk, they
>> actually make arrangements and bouquets and stuff...
>
> Okay everyone...
>
> The renderer should render the tags people actually use. amenity=pharmacy is 
> used 1000 times more than other options, so osm-carto is doing the right 
> thing by using that one and only that one.
>
> If you want to discuss changing the tag for pharmacies, make a new thread, 
> perhaps in the tagging@ mailing list.

It seems my message has been ignored so I'm bumping it again.

This thread is called "Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0". The map
style is doing the right thing with respect to pharmacies (renders
most used tag). Nothing else to discuss here. If you disagree with
amenity=pharmacy being the correct tag, take it to another thread.
It's basic mailing list netiquette.

-- 
Nicolás

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[David Fawcett]

Maybe it is time to start a new thread and move this over to the tagging list.



> On Nov 2, 2015, at 6:45 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>  
> 
>  
>> On 2015-11-02 13:24, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> that's the difference between explicit and implicit mapping. If you are 
>>> explicit, you know that it should be like that, if you rely on the absence 
>>> of information / tags you might fall on your nose because the data wasn't 
>>> complete etc.
>>> For some stuff it might sense to use the "no" to avoid misinterpretations 
>>> by wrong asumptions, e.g. shop=tobacco, sells:cigarettes=yes, 
>>> sells:cigarette_tobacco=no
>>> or highway=motorway_link, oneway=no.
>>> 
>>> also: sells:vegetables=only
>>> sells:cabbage=yes
>>> sells:carrots=yes
>>> ...
>>  
>> some shops only sells certain products during certain periods of the year. 
>> All bakeries in Belgium sell chocolate figures during Sinterklaas-period and 
>> chocolate eggs during easter period.
>> We will need something like "sells:chocolate_easter_eggs:yes @ 
>> (easter_period)" OTOH, every Belgian knows that she can buy that in a bakery 
>> in those periods. Do we really need to tag that ? It's common knowledge 
>> (when you're an Belgian).
>> Also the assortment of fruitcakes and sandwiches is larger during the 
>> weekends. 
>>  
>> For Christmas eve or New Years Eve, you might also be able to order 
>> starters. Butchers and bakeries might even become deli's during this period.
> There are many things in OSM which are time-dependent. Max speeds and other 
> restrictions on the road, opening hours of attractions etc etc. With a bit of 
> luck we can re-use these mechanisms if the product assortment needs to vary 
> by time.
>  
> BUT let's not make the product categories too narrow. "cakes" might be OK, 
> but "fruit_cakes" may be a step too far. "chocolates" might be OK, but 
> "chocolate_easter_eggs" is getting a bit too specific. All IMHO by the way, 
> this is not an exact science... But is it easier to start with broad 
> categories and then subdivide them as the need arises, or to start with 
> detailed categories and then consider clustering, consolidating and 
> rationalising them later? I suggest the first approach, as experience teaches 
> that the clustering/consolidation/rationalisation rarely happens. So better 
> to stick to the broader categories to start with.
>  
>>  
>> What about supermarkets and wine? In Belgium and France it is normal that 
>> they sell wine. Not so in Sweden, where wine is sold via state-operated 
>> shops.
>> Would it be enough to write shop=supermarket; sells:wine=no ?
>  
> Sounds about right to me... except it is not only wine, but all alcoholic 
> drinks isn't it? Do we need to distinguish between wine, beer and spirits? I 
> suspect that would be very relevant, as most supermarkets do not sell spirits 
> but some do, with a special license. So you should add sells:beer=no as well, 
> bearing in mind that "beer" here is intended as a category not a single 
> product - I would expect it to include cider as well, for example.
> 
> //colin
> 
>  
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 10:34 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> Indeed
>
> So why not tag things objectively instead of discussing what things are
> called in different countries?
> shop=prescription_only_medicines;self_medication;pharmacy_only_medicines;household_cleaning
>


I've not yet seen a "prescription_only_medicines" pharmacy, and I support
being pharmacies under "amenity" because they are different to a shop (they
also prepare medicines, are extremely regulated).


> Doing it this way would of course require support for multi-valued keys
> (semicolons!) which many people are allergic to;
>


no, you could do it like this:
sells:prescription_requiring_medicines=yes/only/no 
sells:sunglasses=yes



the problem I see is how you would evaluate such a list in order to
normalize it to a few categories.
It's likely not impossible for pharmacies alone, but if you do it for all
businesses selling something, it will get extremely hard and complicated
(long) to do it. And you should know a lot of details about the places for
which you are offering your map...

Cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 01.11.2015 um 13:01 schrieb Colin Smale :
> 
> Is a pharmacy not the same as shop=chemist with dispensing=yes?


isn't a chemist the same as a drug store? Around here there are 3 types of 
"shops": pharmacies, "parapharmacies" (dispensing no), drug stores (misleading 
name, they sell anything but drugs, etc. detergents, tooth brush, baby food, 
beverages and sweets, sometimes  foto "development", toilet paper, stationery, 
nutrition supplements, (cheaper) make up, ...)

cheers 
Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

Indeed 

So why not tag things objectively instead of discussing what things are
called in different countries?
shop=prescription_only_medicines;self_medication;pharmacy_only_medicines;household_cleaning


Doing it this way would of course require support for multi-valued keys
(semicolons!) which many people are allergic to; hence the current
discussion with loads of people saying "round here it's called this" and
"near me they also sell that" which illustrates the diversity which OSM
has to accommodate but doesn't get us nearer convergence. 

//colin 

On 2015-11-02 10:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> sent from a phone
> 
>> Am 01.11.2015 um 13:01 schrieb Colin Smale :
>> 
>> Is a pharmacy not the same as shop=chemist with dispensing=yes?
> 
> isn't a chemist the same as a drug store? Around here there are 3 types of 
> "shops": pharmacies, "parapharmacies" (dispensing no), drug stores 
> (misleading name, they sell anything but drugs, etc. detergents, tooth brush, 
> baby food, beverages and sweets, sometimes  foto "development", toilet paper, 
> stationery, nutrition supplements, (cheaper) make up, ...)
> 
> cheers 
> Martin
 ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

A pharmacy may open in the evenings for prescriptions only. 

Your example syntax with "sells:xxx" is another way of approaching it,
but it has two disadvantages to my mind. Firstly, to find what the shop
sells, you have to access all keys which start with "sells:". The
namespace syntax (or whatever you want to call it) is also not
officially normalised, so the this means accessing all keys and doing a
pattern match on each of them. The second issue is that the value part
of the KVP is redundant - the presence of the key is enough. 

I have an instinctive aversion to modelling multiple values (the
real-world situation) onto multiple keys in OSM. It "fixes" the problem
in the wrong place, and really just moves the problem. But formalising
the colon syntax (documenting it as part of our information metamodel)
might help - then we effectively have a proper hierarchy of keys, which
can then be stored/indexed/processed appropriately. This would open the
doors to many new things... including cans of worms.. 

Unless the discussion results in a clear consensus on a tagging model
for such entities (whether you call them shops, amenities, offices or
whatever) it's just a waste of energy. Again. And if a miracle does
happen, we can put it on the wiki for all to see and get started on
retagging all the others. 

--colin 

On 2015-11-02 11:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> 2015-11-02 10:34 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
> 
>> Indeed 
>> 
>> So why not tag things objectively instead of discussing what things are 
>> called in different countries? 
>> shop=prescription_only_medicines;self_medication;pharmacy_only_medicines;household_cleaning
> 
> I've not yet seen a "prescription_only_medicines" pharmacy, and I support 
> being pharmacies under "amenity" because they are different to a shop (they 
> also prepare medicines, are extremely regulated). 
> 
>> Doing it this way would of course require support for multi-valued keys 
>> (semicolons!) which many people are allergic to;
> 
> no, you could do it like this: 
> sells:prescription_requiring_medicines=yes/only/no  
> sells:sunglasses=yes
> 
> 
> the problem I see is how you would evaluate such a list in order to normalize 
> it to a few categories. 
> It's likely not impossible for pharmacies alone, but if you do it for all 
> businesses selling something, it will get extremely hard and complicated 
> (long) to do it. And you should know a lot of details about the places for 
> which you are offering your map...
> 
> Cheers, 
> Martin
 ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 11:16 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> The second issue is that the value part of the KVP is redundant - the
> presence of the key is enough.
>

not if you consider values like "no" and "only".


> I have an instinctive aversion to modelling multiple values (the
> real-world situation) onto multiple keys in OSM. It "fixes" the problem in
> the wrong place, and really just moves the problem.
>

I agree that this is not a general solution, it is OK (IMHO) for some edge
cases, stuff you consider important enough to be mapped singularly
(personal preferences might vary, some stuff like ice cream, tobacco,
postal stamps, transport tickets, etc. come to mind, i.e. stuff that a
group of people cares for and where availabillity differs a lot between
countries and shops).

Cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

On 2015-11-02 11:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> 2015-11-02 11:16 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
> 
>> The second issue is that the value part of the KVP is redundant - the 
>> presence of the key is enough.
> 
> not if you consider values like "no" and "only".

The "no" would be indicated by the absence of the tag (we are not going
to add a sells:*=no for everything it doesn't sell, are we?) 
The "only" would be indicated by the absence of any other sells:*=* tag 

>> I have an instinctive aversion to modelling multiple values (the real-world 
>> situation) onto multiple keys in OSM. It "fixes" the problem in the wrong 
>> place, and really just moves the problem.
> 
> I agree that this is not a general solution, it is OK (IMHO) for some edge 
> cases, stuff you consider important enough to be mapped singularly (personal 
> preferences might vary, some stuff like ice cream, tobacco, postal stamps, 
> transport tickets, etc. come to mind, i.e. stuff that a group of people cares 
> for and where availabillity differs a lot between countries and shops).

This is where the skill/craft/science of information modelling comes in
handy. The extremes are shop=yes on the one hand and detailed tagging of
every product it sells on the other hand. Neither extreme is
useful/usable; somewhere in the middle we need to find a balance. The
amount of discussion about pharmacy/chemist/drugstore indicates some
refactoring may provide a way forward. Hence my suggestion of going one
level deeper and tagging the product groups/classes/categories they
sell. 

A renderer/data consumer can make their own conclusion about what to
call a place that only sells non-prescription medicines plus household
cleaning stuff. Some may call it a drugstore, others may call it a
chemist, it doesn't matter - the shop and its products are not under
discussion, just what to call it in one particular case. 

Once upon a time we might have got away with simply using English (as
opposed to US English) as a frame of reference for tagging, but that's a
hard pill to swallow (sorry) for most of the world. 

//colin 

> Cheers, 
> Martin
 ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 11:45 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> On 2015-11-02 11:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
> 2015-11-02 11:16 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
>
>> The second issue is that the value part of the KVP is redundant - the
>> presence of the key is enough.
>>
>
> not if you consider values like "no" and "only".
>
>
>
> The "no" would be indicated by the absence of the tag (we are not going to
> add a sells:*=no for everything it doesn't sell, are we?)
> The "only" would be indicated by the absence of any other sells:*=* tag
>


that's the difference between explicit and implicit mapping. If you are
explicit, you know that it should be like that, if you rely on the absence
of information / tags you might fall on your nose because the data wasn't
complete etc.
For some stuff it might sense to use the "no" to avoid misinterpretations
by wrong asumptions, e.g. shop=tobacco, sells:cigarettes=yes,
sells:cigarette_tobacco=no
or highway=motorway_link, oneway=no.

also: sells:vegetables=only
sells:cabbage=yes
sells:carrots=yes
...

etc.

Cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

I see your point Martin. So all we need now (for your example) is a
documented map from shop=tobacco to a list of sells:*=* tags which are
default for shop=tobacco. One would reasonably expect
sells:cigarettes=yes, sells:pipe_tobacco=yes and
sells:rolling_tobacco=yes, but I am not sure about sells:chewing_tobacco
or actual devices such as rolling machines and pipes. The product
categories may also appear with other types of shop, like
shop=supermarket might have sells:pipe_cleaners=yes if anyone finds it
necessary to tag that. So we have a simple, flat list of product
categories, with a 1:n mapping from shop type to product categories. 

Tobacco shops 

* Main tag: shop=tobacco 

* Typical product categories and defaults for this type of shop: 

** cigarettes (yes) 

** pipe_tobacco (yes) 

** rolling_tobacco (yes) 

** chewing_tobacco (unknown) 

** snuff (unknown) 

** pipes (unknown) 

** pipe cleaners (unknown) 

** rolling machines (unknown) 

Back to our chemists/drugstores/pharmacies, I would suggest
prescription_only_medicines, pharmacy_only_medicines, general_medicines,
plus a bunch of others to represent the wide variety of things you get
in "drugstores" like household_cleaning, hair_products, etc. 

The "art" is going to be choosing these product categories so they are
a) not so specific that the list gets too long and unwieldy and b) not
too high-level that they add too little distinction between the shop
types ("medicines" would probably be an example of this). 

//colin 

On 2015-11-02 12:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> 2015-11-02 11:45 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
> 
> On 2015-11-02 11:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
> 
> 2015-11-02 11:16 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
> 
> The second issue is that the value part of the KVP is redundant - the 
> presence of the key is enough. 
> 
> not if you consider values like "no" and "only".

The "no" would be indicated by the absence of the tag (we are not going
to add a sells:*=no for everything it doesn't sell, are we?) 
The "only" would be indicated by the absence of any other sells:*=* tag 

that's the difference between explicit and implicit mapping. If you are
explicit, you know that it should be like that, if you rely on the
absence of information / tags you might fall on your nose because the
data wasn't complete etc. 
For some stuff it might sense to use the "no" to avoid
misinterpretations by wrong asumptions, e.g. shop=tobacco,
sells:cigarettes=yes, sells:cigarette_tobacco=no 
or highway=motorway_link, oneway=no.

also: sells:vegetables=only 
sells:cabbage=yes 
sells:carrots=yes
... 

etc.

Cheers, 
Martin ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Warin]

On 2/11/2015 10:35 PM, Colin Smale wrote:


I see your point Martin. So all we need now (for your example) is a 
documented map from shop=tobacco to a list of sells:*=* tags which are 
default for shop=tobacco. One would reasonably expect 
sells:cigarettes=yes, sells:pipe_tobacco=yes and 
sells:rolling_tobacco=yes, but I am not sure about 
sells:chewing_tobacco or actual devices such as rolling machines and 
pipes. The product categories may also appear with other types of 
shop, like shop=supermarket might have sells:pipe_cleaners=yes if 
anyone finds it necessary to tag that. So we have a simple, flat list 
of product categories, with a 1:n mapping from shop type to product 
categories.


Tobacco shops

* Main tag: shop=tobacco

* Typical product categories and defaults for this type of shop:

** cigarettes (yes)

** pipe_tobacco (yes)

** rolling_tobacco (yes)

** chewing_tobacco (unknown)

** snuff (unknown)

** pipes (unknown)

** pipe cleaners (unknown)

** rolling machines (unknown)

Back to our chemists/drugstores/pharmacies, I would suggest 
prescription_only_medicines, pharmacy_only_medicines, 
general_medicines, plus a bunch of others to represent the wide 
variety of things you get in "drugstores" like household_cleaning, 
hair_products, etc.


The "art" is going to be choosing these product categories so they are 
a) not so specific that the list gets too long and unwieldy and b) not 
too high-level that they add too little distinction between the shop 
types ("medicines" would probably be an example of this).




Once that is up and running .. people will then want to have the brand 
of cigarette/snuff/tobacco .. as they only like one brand...

so
shop=tobacco
cigarettes=death;slow_burn
pipe_tobacco=old_smoky;blue_fart


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.11.2015 um 12:57 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> Once that is up and running .. people will then want to have the brand of 
> cigarette/snuff/tobacco .. as they only like one brand... 
> so 
> shop=tobacco
> cigarettes=death;slow_burn
> pipe_tobacco=old_smoky;blue_fart 


there's one example, club mate, where this is done for a long time already:
http://matemonkey.com/


cheers 
Martin 


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

looks like you have "sells:toys=yes" there... 

If we don't agree on some kind of framework for this up front, tagging
chaos will fill the vacuum anyway. This is the normal state of affairs.
Net result is that data quality goes down, like a kid's painting set
which ultimately ends up with 24 shades of muddy brown. 

--colin 

On 2015-11-02 13:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> sent from a phone 
> 
> Am 02.11.2015 um 12:35 schrieb Colin Smale :
> 
>> Back to our chemists/drugstores/pharmacies, ... 
>> 
>> The "art" is going to be choosing these product categories so they are a) 
>> not so specific that the list gets too long and unwieldy and b) not too 
>> high-level that they add too little distinction between the shop types 
>> ("medicines" would probably be an example of this).
> 
> yes, since I've seen a shelf board with stuff like this 
> http://www.kaleidoshop.de/produktkatalog/produktgrafiken/chicco-sprechende-farm.jpg
>  
> or similar for sale in a pharmacy I've given up  hoping the list could be 
> kept small ;-) 
> 
> cheers  
> Martin
 ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

Was there maybe a smiley missing? I suspect your suggestions may be felt
to be too detailed. However if people feel the need to tag the
individual products under the product categories, the framework is there
and OSM is a welcoming, inclusive broad church with no limits on
people's creativity so feel free. 

On 2015-11-02 12:57, Warin wrote: 

> On 2/11/2015 10:35 PM, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
>> I see your point Martin. So all we need now (for your example) is a 
>> documented map from shop=tobacco to a list of sells:*=* tags which are 
>> default for shop=tobacco. One would reasonably expect sells:cigarettes=yes, 
>> sells:pipe_tobacco=yes and sells:rolling_tobacco=yes, but I am not sure 
>> about sells:chewing_tobacco or actual devices such as rolling machines and 
>> pipes. The product categories may also appear with other types of shop, like 
>> shop=supermarket might have sells:pipe_cleaners=yes if anyone finds it 
>> necessary to tag that. So we have a simple, flat list of product categories, 
>> with a 1:n mapping from shop type to product categories. 
>> 
>> Tobacco shops 
>> 
>> * Main tag: shop=tobacco 
>> 
>> * Typical product categories and defaults for this type of shop: 
>> 
>> ** cigarettes (yes) 
>> 
>> ** pipe_tobacco (yes) 
>> 
>> ** rolling_tobacco (yes) 
>> 
>> ** chewing_tobacco (unknown) 
>> 
>> ** snuff (unknown) 
>> 
>> ** pipes (unknown) 
>> 
>> ** pipe cleaners (unknown) 
>> 
>> ** rolling machines (unknown) 
>> 
>> Back to our chemists/drugstores/pharmacies, I would suggest 
>> prescription_only_medicines, pharmacy_only_medicines, general_medicines, 
>> plus a bunch of others to represent the wide variety of things you get in 
>> "drugstores" like household_cleaning, hair_products, etc. 
>> 
>> The "art" is going to be choosing these product categories so they are a) 
>> not so specific that the list gets too long and unwieldy and b) not too 
>> high-level that they add too little distinction between the shop types 
>> ("medicines" would probably be an example of this).
> 
> Once that is up and running .. people will then want to have the brand of 
> cigarette/snuff/tobacco .. as they only like one brand... 
> so 
> shop=tobacco
> cigarettes=death;slow_burn
> pipe_tobacco=old_smoky;blue_fart  
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
 ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.11.2015 um 12:35 schrieb Colin Smale :
> 
> Back to our chemists/drugstores/pharmacies, ...
> 
> The "art" is going to be choosing these product categories so they are a) not 
> so specific that the list gets too long and unwieldy and b) not too 
> high-level that they add too little distinction between the shop types 
> ("medicines" would probably be an example of this).
> 


yes, since I've seen a shelf board with stuff like this 
http://www.kaleidoshop.de/produktkatalog/produktgrafiken/chicco-sprechende-farm.jpg
or similar for sale in a pharmacy I've given up  hoping the list could be kept 
small ;-)

cheers 
Martin ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Marc Gemis]

>
>
> that's the difference between explicit and implicit mapping. If you are
> explicit, you know that it should be like that, if you rely on the absence
> of information / tags you might fall on your nose because the data wasn't
> complete etc.
> For some stuff it might sense to use the "no" to avoid misinterpretations
> by wrong asumptions, e.g. shop=tobacco, sells:cigarettes=yes,
> sells:cigarette_tobacco=no
> or highway=motorway_link, oneway=no.
>
> also: sells:vegetables=only
> sells:cabbage=yes
> sells:carrots=yes
> ...
>
>
>
some shops only sells certain products during certain periods of the year.
All bakeries in Belgium sell chocolate figures during Sinterklaas-period
and chocolate eggs during easter period.
We will need something like "sells:chocolate_easter_eggs:yes @
(easter_period)" OTOH, every Belgian knows that she can buy that in a
bakery in those periods. Do we really need to tag that ? It's common
knowledge (when you're an Belgian).
Also the assortment of fruitcakes and sandwiches is larger during the
weekends.

For Christmas eve or New Years Eve, you might also be able to order
starters. Butchers and bakeries might even become deli's during this period.


What about supermarkets and wine? In Belgium and France it is normal that
they sell wine. Not so in Sweden, where wine is sold via state-operated
shops.
Would it be enough to write shop=supermarket; sells:wine=no ?

regards

m
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon Nov 2 09:13:39 2015 GMT, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > Am 01.11.2015 um 13:01 schrieb Colin Smale :
> > 
> > Is a pharmacy not the same as shop=chemist with dispensing=yes?
> 
> 
> isn't a chemist the same as a drug store? Around here there are 3 types of 
> "shops": pharmacies, "parapharmacies" (dispensing no), drug stores 
> (misleading name, they sell anything but drugs, etc. detergents, tooth brush, 
> baby food, beverages and sweets, sometimes  foto "development", toilet paper, 
> stationery, nutrition supplements, (cheaper) make up, ...)
> 
In British English a chemist and pharmacy are the same and used interchangeably 
. Pharmacy has only been used in recent years, when I was growing up it was 
always a chemist.

Older people still tend to use chemist. 

Phil (trigpoint)
-- 
Sent from my Jolla
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

On 2015-11-02 13:24, Marc Gemis wrote: 

>> that's the difference between explicit and implicit mapping. If you are 
>> explicit, you know that it should be like that, if you rely on the absence 
>> of information / tags you might fall on your nose because the data wasn't 
>> complete etc. 
>> For some stuff it might sense to use the "no" to avoid misinterpretations by 
>> wrong asumptions, e.g. shop=tobacco, sells:cigarettes=yes, 
>> sells:cigarette_tobacco=no 
>> or highway=motorway_link, oneway=no.
>> 
>> also: sells:vegetables=only 
>> sells:cabbage=yes 
>> sells:carrots=yes
>> ...
> 
> some shops only sells certain products during certain periods of the year. 
> All bakeries in Belgium sell chocolate figures during Sinterklaas-period and 
> chocolate eggs during easter period. 
> We will need something like "sells:chocolate_easter_eggs:yes @ 
> (easter_period)" OTOH, every Belgian knows that she can buy that in a bakery 
> in those periods. Do we really need to tag that ? It's common knowledge (when 
> you're an Belgian). 
> Also the assortment of fruitcakes and sandwiches is larger during the 
> weekends.  
> 
> For Christmas eve or New Years Eve, you might also be able to order starters. 
> Butchers and bakeries might even become deli's during this period.

There are many things in OSM which are time-dependent. Max speeds and
other restrictions on the road, opening hours of attractions etc etc.
With a bit of luck we can re-use these mechanisms if the product
assortment needs to vary by time. 

BUT let's not make the product categories too narrow. "cakes" might be
OK, but "fruit_cakes" may be a step too far. "chocolates" might be OK,
but "chocolate_easter_eggs" is getting a bit too specific. All IMHO by
the way, this is not an exact science... But is it easier to start with
broad categories and then subdivide them as the need arises, or to start
with detailed categories and then consider clustering, consolidating and
rationalising them later? I suggest the first approach, as experience
teaches that the clustering/consolidation/rationalisation rarely
happens. So better to stick to the broader categories to start with. 

> What about supermarkets and wine? In Belgium and France it is normal that 
> they sell wine. Not so in Sweden, where wine is sold via state-operated 
> shops. 
> Would it be enough to write shop=supermarket; sells:wine=no ?

Sounds about right to me... except it is not only wine, but all
alcoholic drinks isn't it? Do we need to distinguish between wine, beer
and spirits? I suspect that would be very relevant, as most supermarkets
do not sell spirits but some do, with a special license. So you should
add sells:beer=no as well, bearing in mind that "beer" here is intended
as a category not a single product - I would expect it to include cider
as well, for example. 

//colin 

  ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[morray]

Hi,
Am 31.10.2015 um 14:32 schrieb Greg Troxel:
> I haven't seen the underlying data on tag frequency
> brought into the debate; arguably that should be the core of the
> discussion.
the underlying tag frequency is pretty clear. According to taginfo [1]

148 065 amenity
226 shop
132 health_facility:type
91  disused:amenity
68  healthcare
38  symbol
34  type


actually the most sensible would be in my opinion the healthcare one,
but given the data best would probably be to unify the few other tagging
styles after crosschecking that it is really a pharmacy

Cheers
Morray


[1]http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=pharmacy#values


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Talk-ko] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Max]

There seems to be some momentum in the development for the rendering of
the main OSM style osm carto.

Have you noticed any oddities or bugs in Korea?

Maybe it's a good time to sumbit a ticket to change the horrible font
for Korean? What do you suggest? The Nanum Gothic from Naver is under a
free license and is AFAIK the only suitable candidate.

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto
Is the place to post issues. I could do that but wanted your input for
anything font related.

m.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:01:34 +0100
From: Matthijs Melissen <i...@matthijsmelissen.nl>
To: OpenStreetMap <t...@openstreetmap.org>, osm-dev List
<d...@openstreetmap.org>

Dear all,

Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.

Changes include:

* Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
for more information.
* Added rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=fountain
  - amenity=car_wash
  - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
  - shop=bag
  - shop=outdoor
  - power=plant (labels)
* Changed rendering of the following objects:
  - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
on low zoomlevels)
  - Road shields
  - Oneway arrows
  - Glaciers
  - Marina labels
  - Station labels
* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
  - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
  - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
  - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
  - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
  - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
amenity=fast_food)
  - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
  - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
  - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
  - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
* Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.

For a full list of commits, see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0

As always, we welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
t...@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



___
Talk-ko mailing list
Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Colin Smale]

 

Is a pharmacy not the same as shop=chemist with dispensing=yes? To my
mind it sounds like it. If there is a distinction, isn't it getting a
bit academic? 

On 2015-11-01 12:51, Richard wrote: 

> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 09:01:04AM +1100, Warin wrote: On 31/10/2015 8:10 AM, 
> Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 30 October 2015 at 22:01, Matthijs Melissen 
>  wrote:   - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy) 
> This should be amenity=pharmacy instead of office=pharmacy, of course.

No. In a perfect world it should be

shop=pharmacy

Description : A shop where a pharmacist sells medications.

So "a shop"!:-)

My definition ... shop ... a place where physical goods are sold. 

not long ago (maybe even today?) pharmacies  were not only selling goods
but 
also producing many kinds of ointments and possibly other things as
ordered 
by the prescribing physician.

So "shop" would be a too narrow definition.

Richard

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Max]

On 2015년 11월 01일 20:51, Richard wrote:
> not long ago (maybe even today?) pharmacies  were not only selling goods but 
> also producing many kinds of ointments and possibly other things as ordered 
> by the prescribing physician.
> 
> So "shop" would be a too narrow definition.

With that argument you should also change stuff like shop=florist,
because they aren't just selling the flowers they buy in bulk, they
actually make arrangements and bouquets and stuff...

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[nicolas . alvarez]

> El 30/10/2015, a las 19:01, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> escribió:
> 
>> On 31/10/2015 8:10 AM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>> On 30 October 2015 at 22:01, Matthijs Melissen  
>>> wrote:
>>>   - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
>> This should be amenity=pharmacy instead of office=pharmacy, of course.
> 
> No. In a perfect world it should be
> 
> 
> shop=pharmacy
> 
> Description : A shop where a pharmacist sells medications.
> 
> So "a shop"!:-)   
> My definition ... shop ... a place where physical goods are sold.
> 

I agree in principle. But it's too late to do a change like that:

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=amenity=pharmacy
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=shop=pharmacy

Amenity is here to stay.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[nicolas . alvarez]

> El 1/11/2015, a las 9:39, Max  escribió:
> 
>> On 2015년 11월 01일 20:51, Richard wrote:
>> not long ago (maybe even today?) pharmacies  were not only selling goods but 
>> also producing many kinds of ointments and possibly other things as ordered 
>> by the prescribing physician.
>> 
>> So "shop" would be a too narrow definition.
> 
> With that argument you should also change stuff like shop=florist,
> because they aren't just selling the flowers they buy in bulk, they
> actually make arrangements and bouquets and stuff...

Okay everyone...

The renderer should render the tags people actually use. amenity=pharmacy is 
used 1000 times more than other options, so osm-carto is doing the right thing 
by using that one and only that one.

If you want to discuss changing the tag for pharmacies, make a new thread, 
perhaps in the tagging@ mailing list.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Lester Caine]

On 01/11/15 12:39, Max wrote:
>> not long ago (maybe even today?) pharmacies  were not only selling goods but 
>> > also producing many kinds of ointments and possibly other things as 
>> > ordered 
>> > by the prescribing physician.
>> > 
>> > So "shop" would be a too narrow definition.
> With that argument you should also change stuff like shop=florist,
> because they aren't just selling the flowers they buy in bulk, they
> actually make arrangements and bouquets and stuff...

The irritating bit is the miss match of things like amenity, shop and
now 'healthcare'. In my tag list the local doctors surgery is an
building=clinic and has within it an amenity=doctor, nurse, dentist and
pharmacy. Just as my local hospital has various additional amenities
such as podiatrist (who CAN be a medical practitioner here!),
optometrist and the like. But just down the road from the doctors is a
shop=chemist which also provides a dispensing pharmacy amenity and has a
visiting podiatrist. The doctors pharmacy carries out no over the
counter sales ( apart from the extra tax con ;) ) so is an amenity,
while the chemist is clearly a shop providing various amenities, some of
which may not be 'healthcare' ... do we really need yet another
complicated tag in this mix?

Adding 'office' as another option of "A place predominantly selling
services." also confuses the picture. The building is an office,
shopping_mall or retail premise, and once again, the amenity provided is
the job function. The estate agent is next to the chemist's shop in the
same building, so tag the building 'retail', and each unit with is
amenity(s)?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Ed Loach]

Richard wrote:

> Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> > Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has
> > been released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org
> > servers. It might still take a couple of days before all tiles
> > show the new rendering.
> 
> Congratulations to all involved - real dedication to the cause despite
> the
> slings and arrows. Thank you.

Despite my earlier reservations, I have to agree. While I was attached to the 
"proper" colour scheme and couldn't see the reason for the change, now it is 
deployed I can see how this is a clear visual improvement (especially where 
part of the screen has redrawn in the new style and part still shows the old). 

Congratulations from me too.

Ed


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Talk-TW] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Dennis Raylin Chen]

Dear all,

大家如果今天打開開放街圖網站，大概會發現變得很不一樣吧

最大的改變大概是道路的顏色，原本五顏六色的顏色，現在變成以下的顏色：
motorway 藍 -> 紅
trunk 綠 -> 桃
primary 紅 -> 橘
secondary 橘 -> 黃
tertiary 黃 -> 白

另外鐵路的線路也變得比較黑一點

圖片可以參考以下兩個連結：

OpenStreetMap台灣的討論
https://www.facebook.com/groups/OpenStreetMap.TW/permalink/942249049173898/

OpenStreetMap Blog
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/

Dennis

-- Forwarded message --
From: Matthijs Melissen <i...@matthijsmelissen.nl>
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 5:01 AM
Subject: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0
To: OpenStreetMap <t...@openstreetmap.org>, osm-dev List <
d...@openstreetmap.org>


Dear all,

Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.

Changes include:

* Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
for more information.
* Added rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=fountain
  - amenity=car_wash
  - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
  - shop=bag
  - shop=outdoor
  - power=plant (labels)
* Changed rendering of the following objects:
  - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
on low zoomlevels)
  - Road shields
  - Oneway arrows
  - Glaciers
  - Marina labels
  - Station labels
* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
  - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
  - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
  - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
  - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
  - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
amenity=fast_food)
  - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
  - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
  - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
  - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
* Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.

For a full list of commits, see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0

As always, we welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
t...@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
Talk-TW mailing list
Talk-TW@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tw

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Max]

On 2015년 10월 31일 06:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> * Dropped rendering of the following tags:
>   - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)

I disagree. Car sharing stations are a vital part of mobility
infrastructure and as more and more people in densely populated places
decide not to own a car but use a mixed mobility with public transport,
bike and car sharing they are becoming even more important.

OSM is a community effort and you can see this in the data. There is
great data for cyclists and pedestrians on OSM, because it is made by
them. It sets OSM apart from other, commercial maps which are centered
around the car. So the communal use of a vehicle makes sense for
community minded people as OSM contibutors are.
The challenges of today with the climate talks in Paris ahead of us and
the need for alternative ways of transportation seems to have escaped
you. Especially hard to understand when on the other hand car_wash is
added to the rendering. Makes no sense if you ask me.

> * Added rendering of the following tags:
>   - amenity=car_wash


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Paul Johnson]

Just noticed it's starting to roll across the Big Empty now.

http://imgur.com/a/od9sr

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
> released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
> still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.
>
> Changes include:
>
> * Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
> Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
> for more information.
> * Added rendering of the following tags:
>   - amenity=fountain
>   - amenity=car_wash
>   - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
>   - shop=bag
>   - shop=outdoor
>   - power=plant (labels)
> * Changed rendering of the following objects:
>   - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
> on low zoomlevels)
>   - Road shields
>   - Oneway arrows
>   - Glaciers
>   - Marina labels
>   - Station labels
> * Dropped rendering of the following tags:
>   - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
>   - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
>   - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
>   - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
>   - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
>   - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
> amenity=fast_food)
>   - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
> leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
>   - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
>   - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
>   - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
> * Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.
>
> For a full list of commits, see
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0
>
> As always, we welcome any bug reports at
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 31.10.2015 um 00:22 schrieb Philip Barnes :
> 
> Pharmacists don't technically sell medicines they dispense it and sometimes 
> collect a flat rate fee, if you are of working age and live in England. 
> 
> They do sell some stuff as well, but so do the library and post office.  



there is surely a huge difference in volume between the stuff a pharmacy sells 
besides dispensing medicine and the stuff a library or a post office sell, 
making it more of an edge case, at least around here (and that's still Europe). 
Anyway, I don't oppose amenity=pharmacy as the preferred tag.

Cheers 
Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 31.10.2015 9:45, Max napisał(a):

On 2015년 10월 31일 06:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)


I disagree. Car sharing stations are a vital part of mobility
infrastructure and as more and more people in densely populated places
decide not to own a car but use a mixed mobility with public transport,
bike and car sharing they are becoming even more important.


I think GitHub project, especially this issue:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1891

is better place to talk about details of amenity=car_sharing rendering, 
because it's a working space for osm-carto developers.


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[joost schouppe]

Nice work, looking really good.

In "empty quarters", it does make for difficult-to-spot tertiary roads, e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/-18.7409/-65.9396

But let's not force osm-carto to do everything. There's always umap to play
around with different styles and overpass-turbo to easily highlight exactly
what you want to see.

2015-10-31 11:03 GMT+01:00 Daniel Koć :

> W dniu 31.10.2015 9:45, Max napisał(a):
>
>> On 2015년 10월 31일 06:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>
>>> * Dropped rendering of the following tags:
>>>   - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
>>>
>>
>> I disagree. Car sharing stations are a vital part of mobility
>> infrastructure and as more and more people in densely populated places
>> decide not to own a car but use a mixed mobility with public transport,
>> bike and car sharing they are becoming even more important.
>>
>
> I think GitHub project, especially this issue:
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1891
>
> is better place to talk about details of amenity=car_sharing rendering,
> because it's a working space for osm-carto developers.
>
> --
> "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
> down" [A. Cohen]
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Joost @
Openstreetmap  |
Twitter  | LinkedIn
 | Meetup
 | Reddit
 | Wordpress

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 31.10.2015 um 14:32 schrieb Greg Troxel :
> 
> It's quite different in the US.   Besides paying for prescription
> medication (often with insurance, but still) a place called a pharmacy
> will have a variety of non-prescription medication and various
> associated stuff (bandages).


it's the same in Italy and Germany, besides medicine they also typically sell 
"healthy" stuff like glutenfree food, sugarless sweets, particular make ups and 
soaps, sun glasses, diapers and baby food and care, and lots more, even 
electronic baby toys I've seen here. 

On the other hand usually they also have a laboratory and can prepare 
individual medication on prescription 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Matthijs Melissen]

Dear all,

Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.

Changes include:

* Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
for more information.
* Added rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=fountain
  - amenity=car_wash
  - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
  - shop=bag
  - shop=outdoor
  - power=plant (labels)
* Changed rendering of the following objects:
  - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
on low zoomlevels)
  - Road shields
  - Oneway arrows
  - Glaciers
  - Marina labels
  - Station labels
* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
  - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
  - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
  - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
  - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
  - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or amenity=fast_food)
  - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
  - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
  - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
  - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
* Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.

For a full list of commits, see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0

As always, we welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Marc Gemis]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Matthijs Melissen <i...@matthijsmelissen.nl>
Date: Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:01 PM
Subject: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0
To: OpenStreetMap <t...@openstreetmap.org>, osm-dev List <
d...@openstreetmap.org>


Dear all,

Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.

Changes include:

* Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
for more information.
* Added rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=fountain
  - amenity=car_wash
  - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
  - shop=bag
  - shop=outdoor
  - power=plant (labels)
* Changed rendering of the following objects:
  - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
on low zoomlevels)
  - Road shields
  - Oneway arrows
  - Glaciers
  - Marina labels
  - Station labels
* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
  - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
  - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
  - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
  - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
  - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
amenity=fast_food)
  - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
  - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
  - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
  - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
* Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.

For a full list of commits, see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0

As always, we welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
t...@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Warin]

On 31/10/2015 8:10 AM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 30 October 2015 at 22:01, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

   - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)

This should be amenity=pharmacy instead of office=pharmacy, of course.



No. In a perfect world it should be


shop=pharmacy

Description : A shop where a pharmacist sells medications.

So "a shop"!:-)   


My definition ... shop ... a place where physical goods are sold.

-

Thanks for the effort on the styling. Not an easy task and under appreciated.



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 30 October 2015 at 22:01, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:
>   - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)

This should be amenity=pharmacy instead of office=pharmacy, of course.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri Oct 30 22:01:04 2015 GMT, Warin wrote:
> On 31/10/2015 8:10 AM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> > On 30 October 2015 at 22:01, Matthijs Melissen  
> > wrote:
> >>- shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
> > This should be amenity=pharmacy instead of office=pharmacy, of course.
> >
> 
> No. In a perfect world it should be
> 
> 
> shop=pharmacy
> 
> Description : A shop where a pharmacist sells medications.
> 
> So "a shop"!:-)   
> 
> My definition ... shop ... a place where physical goods are sold.

Amenity seems good to me, a pharmacy is one of those essential amenities that 
make a community sustainable. 

Pharmacists don't technically sell medicines they dispense it and sometimes 
collect a flat rate fee, if you are of working age and live in England. 

They do sell some stuff as well, but so do the library and post office. 

Phil (trigpoint)


-- 
Sent from my Jolla
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Lester Caine]

On 30/10/15 21:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> * Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
> Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See

BUGGER I still haven’t got the backup system working and now all my UK
stuff is screwed up :(
This really does not work!

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[talk-ph] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

You might notice something drastically different on the main OSM style
especially with the road rendering and colors. Please see the following
announcement for details.


-- Forwarded message --
From: Matthijs Melissen <i...@matthijsmelissen.nl>
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 5:01 AM
Subject: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0


Dear all,

Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.

Changes include:

* Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
for more information.
* Added rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=fountain
  - amenity=car_wash
  - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
  - shop=bag
  - shop=outdoor
  - power=plant (labels)
* Changed rendering of the following objects:
  - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
on low zoomlevels)
  - Road shields
  - Oneway arrows
  - Glaciers
  - Marina labels
  - Station labels
* Dropped rendering of the following tags:
  - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
  - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
  - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
  - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
  - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
  - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
amenity=fast_food)
  - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
  - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
  - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
  - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
* Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.

For a full list of commits, see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0

As always, we welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.

-- Matthijs
___
talk-ph mailing list
talk-ph@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph

Re: [talk-ph] [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

Here's the blog post:
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar <sea...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> You might notice something drastically different on the main OSM style
> especially with the road rendering and colors. Please see the following
> announcement for details.
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Matthijs Melissen <i...@matthijsmelissen.nl>
> Date: Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 5:01 AM
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been
> released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org servers. It might
> still take a couple of days before all tiles show the new rendering.
>
> Changes include:
>
> * Major rewrite of road and railway rendering, as part of Mateusz
> Konieczny's Google Summer of Code project. See
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2015/10/30/openstreetmap-org-map-changing/
> for more information.
> * Added rendering of the following tags:
>   - amenity=fountain
>   - amenity=car_wash
>   - historic=wayside_cross and man_made=cross
>   - shop=bag
>   - shop=outdoor
>   - power=plant (labels)
> * Changed rendering of the following objects:
>   - Placenames (new algorithm for deciding what placenames to render
> on low zoomlevels)
>   - Road shields
>   - Oneway arrows
>   - Glaciers
>   - Marina labels
>   - Station labels
> * Dropped rendering of the following tags:
>   - amenity=car_sharing (not relevant for the general public)
>   - shop=antique (use shop=antiques)
>   - shop=betting (use shop=lottery or shop=bookmaker)
>   - shop=delicatessen (use shop=deli)
>   - shop=dive (use shop=scuba_diving)
>   - shop=fish (use shop=seafood, shop=pet, shop=angling or
> amenity=fast_food)
>   - shop=gambling (use shop=lottery, shop=bookmaker, or
> leisure=adult_gaming_centre)
>   - shop=insurance (use office=insurance)
>   - shop=pharmacy (use office=pharmacy)
>   - shop=bags (use shop=bag)
> * Various other bug fixes and minor improvements.
>
> For a full list of commits, see
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.35.0...v2.36.0
>
> As always, we welcome any bug reports at
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
>
___
talk-ph mailing list
talk-ph@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph

Re: [OSM-talk] Release openstreetmap-carto v2.36.0

[Richard Fairhurst]

Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Today, v2.36.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has 
> been released and rolled out to the openstreetmap.org 
> servers. It might still take a couple of days before all tiles 
> show the new rendering.

Congratulations to all involved - real dedication to the cause despite the
slings and arrows. Thank you.

Richard



--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Release-openstreetmap-carto-v2-36-0-tp5858363p5858367.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk