Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 8 Sep 2011, at 22:39, SomeoneElse wrote: Thomas Davie wrote: Would it be possible to include a link to an example roundabout in OSM? Within the UK there seems to be a variety of tagging approaches, everything from not tagging flares to tagging individual roundabout lanes. I'm guessing that you're using an mkgmap-generated map, in which case there are options that alter roundabout handling (including the delightfully named --frig-roundabouts). The problem that usually gets me is miscounting exits (when two exits' adjacent flares share the same node), but late announcment of exit number can also be annoying. By the way, if you are using mkgmap then you might want to have a look on http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev - that's where most mkgmap discussion takes place. Cheers, Andy My apologies, it appears my initial in-the-car guess at what was causing the GPS to have a spaz was incorrect, sorry, I should have checked first... This is one of the roundabouts that caused the issue when approaching from the north on the A9: Shortlink Clearly it's not the issue with flares that I described, as the A9 is a dual carriageway at that point, and the approaches are not tagged as part of the roundabout. I wonder what could be causing this then? The particular conversion I was using was taken from here http://talkytoaster.info/ukmaps.htm. Does anyone see what might be going on? Thanks Tom Davie___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On Friday, 9 September 2011, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/8/2011 3:45 PM, David Earl wrote: The problem is exacerbated because many of these were done as a single one way which comes off the roundabout and then turns almost 180 deg. and rejoins roundabout. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4565106 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4565106 This is certainly no good, since it implies that making that U-turn is staying on the same road. i didnt start the idiom of this apparent U turn, merely the tagging to indicate what it is to programs. But the idiom is very widespread AFAICS. But Im not sure that breaking it in two says anything different. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 09/09/11 15:45, David Earl wrote: On Friday, 9 September 2011, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com mailto:nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 9/8/2011 3:45 PM, David Earl wrote: The problem is exacerbated because many of these were done as a single one way which comes off the roundabout and then turns almost 180 deg. and rejoins roundabout. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4565106 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4565106 This is certainly no good, since it implies that making that U-turn is staying on the same road. i didnt start the idiom of this apparent U turn, merely the tagging to indicate what it is to programs. But the idiom is very widespread AFAICS. But Im not sure that breaking it in two says anything different. David This mapping is incorrect they are two separate ways and should be mapped as such. Cheers Ross ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
With regards to solution 1) I have never noticed a sliproad onto a
roundabout tagged as junction=roundabout (UK East Midlands). Where is
this common practice? If this is not too widely used then it might be
worth retagging, but I don't know how easy it would be to automatically
detect these.
Jonathan
On 08/09/2011 19:48, Thomas Davie wrote:
Hi,
Today I experimented with using OSM maps on my Garmin sat-nav. The
one thing that I noticed was that roundabouts do not work well. The
problem seems to be the slip roads entering the roundabout. The
sat-nav recognises them as a roundabout in themself, and because of
that gives some fairly poor directions, for example:
• Drive 10 miles then enter roundabout.
(Drive 10 miles)
• Enter roundabout.
(Enter the slip road to the roundabout)
• Enter roundabout and take the third exit.
As you can see, because of the slip road's existence the GPS does not
announce which exit you're expecting to take until the last minute.
This means that you can't get in the right lane early enough.
Proposed solutions (all of which are horrible):
1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout,
instead use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because
it involves a *whole* lot of retagging.
2) Ask garmin to fix it (doesn't sound likely).
3) Write some fancy heuristics in the conversion from OSM to routable
garmin maps that figure out when you're looking at slip roads and when
it's an actual roundabout (sounds unreliable).
Can anyone thing of a better solution to this?
Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
Jonathan Waller wrote: With regards to solution 1) I have never noticed a sliproad onto a roundabout tagged as junction=roundabout (UK East Midlands). Where is this common practice? If this is not too widely used then it might be worth retagging, but I don't know how easy it would be to automatically detect these. Certainly the roundabouts near here all have islands in the middle of the approach, so these need to be mapped, if only for the pedestrian route around them. They are all tagged as part of the approach road, but obviously have the correct direction arrows ... which they need! I think the main problem here is not so much anything to do with OSM, but how the portable devices work. TomTom has this very annoying habit of announcing some silly side road or even layby as a junction then totally ignoring the merges with a motorway a mile or so later. It is the interpretation of the data that is the problem, not the data itself, and if anything that needs to be handled in the conversion process to the device not on the raw map? Bodging the data so that the device does what you want ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
David Earl wrote: In areas where it has been important for me (where I've been producing a high quality paper map), I have tagged these as junction=approach. The reason I needed such a tag was to avoid one way arrows cluttering up the map on those little Y-shaped approaches to roundabouts This seems like a bad approach to me. (pardon the pun) If the road flares like that then those two road sections ARE one way. If you do not tag them as such then you will confuse routing software, which will see two possible exits from the roundabout, rather than one on and one off. Looking at Mapdust/skobbler reports shows that incorrect tagging of these approaches is a common cause of odd routing bugs like /Nav said to take the 8th exit at roundabout, but there were only 4/ -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Roundabouts-and-routing-tp6773223p6775471.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 09/09/2011 11:00, Graham Stewart (GrahamS) wrote: David Earl wrote: In areas where it has been important for me (where I've been producing a high quality paper map), I have tagged these as junction=approach. The reason I needed such a tag was to avoid one way arrows cluttering up the map on those little Y-shaped approaches to roundabouts This seems like a bad approach to me. (pardon the pun) If the road flares like that then those two road sections ARE one way. If you do not tag them as such then you will confuse routing software, which will see two possible exits from the roundabout, rather than one on and one off. As I said, I didn't invent this, only added a tag to identify the kind of feature. But nearly all roundabouts in the UK are done like this or similar, by lots and lots of different people, because they are significant geographical features. On major roads they can be many tens of metres long and the gap between the ends can be 10 or 20 metres on some big roundabouts. It's almost a special case of dual carriageway. If they are explicitly marked one-way then the problem is with routing algorithms if they could them as an exit when they aren't. If you didn't mark them as one-way then there would be some excuse for counting them all as exits (except that you could tell, if they are marked junction=approach, but that's not nearly so widely used). David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 09/09/2011 12:09, David Earl wrote: algorithms if they could them as an exit when they aren't. If you didn't err, count them as... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
2011/9/9 Graham Stewart (GrahamS) gra...@dalmuti.net: David Earl wrote: The reason I needed such a tag was to avoid one way arrows cluttering up the map on those little Y-shaped approaches to roundabouts This seems like a bad approach to me. (pardon the pun) If the road flares like that then those two road sections ARE one way. +1 I also agree with others that those links shouldn't be tagged junction=roundabout. I'd tag the links into the roundabout in the example highway=trunk_link, oneway=yes (and maybe even lanes=1 if applies). cheers, Martin PS: This whole discussion should go into tagging. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 08/09/2011 23:14, Jonathan Waller wrote: With regards to solution 1) I have never noticed a sliproad onto a roundabout tagged as junction=roundabout (UK East Midlands). Where is this common practice? If this is not too widely used then it might be worth retagging, but I don't know how easy it would be to automatically detect these. Jonathan Should you be a mkgmap user then running it with the --check-roundabout-flares option will result in identification of problems with, yes you guessed it, roundabout flare roads. Specifically, it will warn about: - Flare roads that have oneway set in the wrong direction - Flare roads that are not set to oneway - Flare roads that do not converge to a flare point In addition, the --check-roundabouts flag will result in warning about flare roads that have been given the junction=roundabout tag. -- Charlie ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
Hi,
Today I experimented with using OSM maps on my Garmin sat-nav. The one thing
that I noticed was that roundabouts do not work well. The problem seems to be
the slip roads entering the roundabout. The sat-nav recognises them as a
roundabout in themself, and because of that gives some fairly poor directions,
for example:
• Drive 10 miles then enter roundabout.
(Drive 10 miles)
• Enter roundabout.
(Enter the slip road to the roundabout)
• Enter roundabout and take the third exit.
As you can see, because of the slip road's existence the GPS does not announce
which exit you're expecting to take until the last minute. This means that you
can't get in the right lane early enough.
Proposed solutions (all of which are horrible):
1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead use
some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves a *whole*
lot of retagging.
2) Ask garmin to fix it (doesn't sound likely).
3) Write some fancy heuristics in the conversion from OSM to routable garmin
maps that figure out when you're looking at slip roads and when it's an actual
roundabout (sounds unreliable).
Can anyone thing of a better solution to this?
Bob
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 08/09/11 19:48, Thomas Davie wrote: Hi, Today I experimented with using OSM maps on my Garmin sat-nav. The one thing that I noticed was that roundabouts do not work well. The problem seems to be the slip roads entering the roundabout. The sat-nav recognises them as a roundabout in themself, and because of that gives some fairly poor directions, for example: • Drive 10 miles then enter roundabout. (Drive 10 miles) • Enter roundabout. (Enter the slip road to the roundabout) • Enter roundabout and take the third exit. As you can see, because of the slip road's existence the GPS does not announce which exit you're expecting to take until the last minute. This means that you can't get in the right lane early enough. Proposed solutions (all of which are horrible): 1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves a *whole* lot of retagging. 2) Ask garmin to fix it (doesn't sound likely). 3) Write some fancy heuristics in the conversion from OSM to routable garmin maps that figure out when you're looking at slip roads and when it's an actual roundabout (sounds unreliable). Can anyone thing of a better solution to this? I only tag the roundabout itself with the roundabout tag, that is the closed way which is often circular. The sliproads (technically called flares) are not part of the roundabout and, to me and supported in the wiki, they are not tagged as part of the roundabout. All of the approaches to roundabouts tagged like this seem to work with my Garmin well. Maybe an example of what you find not working might help. FWIW, Garmin do not support OSM's use of their devices so asking Garmin for help is not likely to help at all. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 08/09/11 19:48, Thomas Davie wrote: 1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves a *whole* lot of retagging. Well who on earth is doing that? and why? I've certainly never tagged roads entering a roundabout in that way, nor can I see any reason to do so. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
+1 Steve From: Tom Hughes Sent: 9/8/2011 1:27 PM To: Thomas Davie Cc: OSM Talk Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing On 08/09/11 19:48, Thomas Davie wrote: 1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves a *whole* lot of retagging. Well who on earth is doing that? and why? I've certainly never tagged roads entering a roundabout in that way, nor can I see any reason to do so. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 08/09/2011 20:27, Tom Hughes wrote: On 08/09/11 19:48, Thomas Davie wrote: 1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves a *whole* lot of retagging. Well who on earth is doing that? and why? I've certainly never tagged roads entering a roundabout in that way, nor can I see any reason to do so. In areas where it has been important for me (where I've been producing a high quality paper map), I have tagged these as junction=approach. The reason I needed such a tag was to avoid one way arrows cluttering up the map on those little Y-shaped approaches to roundabouts; there isn't any easy way to tell the difference from a genuinely one way street otherwise, but one way markers on these short, often invisible roads (invisible because at map scale, they tend to merge together when widths are exaggerated). The problem is exacerbated because many of these were done as a single one way which comes off the roundabout and then turns almost 180 deg. and rejoins roundabout. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4565106 BTW, I don't consider this is tagging for the renderer at all. It is identify a particular kind of feature that is not otherwise easy or possible to identify without specific tagging. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
Thomas Davie wrote: Proposed solutions (all of which are horrible): 1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves a *whole* lot of retagging. 2) Ask garmin to fix it (doesn't sound likely). 3) Write some fancy heuristics in the conversion from OSM to routable garmin maps that figure out when you're looking at slip roads and when it's an actual roundabout (sounds unreliable). Would it be possible to include a link to an example roundabout in OSM? Within the UK there seems to be a variety of tagging approaches, everything from not tagging flares to tagging individual roundabout lanes. I'm guessing that you're using an mkgmap-generated map, in which case there are options that alter roundabout handling (including the delightfully named --frig-roundabouts). The problem that usually gets me is miscounting exits (when two exits' adjacent flares share the same node), but late announcment of exit number can also be annoying. By the way, if you are using mkgmap then you might want to have a look on http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev - that's where most mkgmap discussion takes place. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 9/8/2011 3:45 PM, David Earl wrote: The problem is exacerbated because many of these were done as a single one way which comes off the roundabout and then turns almost 180 deg. and rejoins roundabout. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4565106 This is certainly no good, since it implies that making that U-turn is staying on the same road. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
