Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
Robert (Jamie) Munro schrieb: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ulf Lamping wrote: Please also note, that it's really easy to switch from OSM to Google maps (and back) if you're using openlayers. But you have to rewrite your javascript code (completely?) if you want to go from the Google API to OSM. In fact, you can show OSM tiles in Google JS, for example on this site: http://oxford.openguides.org/wiki/?St._Aldate%27s_Church There's even a bookmarklet (OSMify) you can run to add Mapnik, OSMA and Cycle layers to most 3rd party Google maps sites: http://blog.johnmckerrell.com/2007/12/31/new-version-of-osmify-bookmarklet/ I've just tested it on the Software Freedom Day site, and it works well. The only site it doesn't work on is Google's own main maps site. Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of this and IIRC it wasn't possible when I first tried it (about two years ago?). Anyway, you still have this ugly Powered by Google on the screen and you're not using open source software (or am I wrong again with this assumption ;-) Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ulf Lampingulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Please also note, that it's really easy to switch from OSM to Google maps (and back) if you're using openlayers. But you have to rewrite your javascript code (completely?) if you want to go from the Google API to OSM. So OSM is the secure choice to start with ... :-) Ulf, Have you looked at Mapstraction? http://www.mapstraction.com/ It's an easier sell to tell people to use the Mapstraction layer I think, than all in to OSM. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
Serge Wroclawski schrieb: On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ulf Lampingulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Please also note, that it's really easy to switch from OSM to Google maps (and back) if you're using openlayers. But you have to rewrite your javascript code (completely?) if you want to go from the Google API to OSM. So OSM is the secure choice to start with ... :-) Ulf, Have you looked at Mapstraction? http://www.mapstraction.com/ It's an easier sell to tell people to use the Mapstraction layer I think, than all in to OSM. I'm sorry, but what's the benefit from using OpenLayers.org? OpenLayers.org seems to provide the same functionality than Mapstraction (or am I missing something obvious?), and the use of openlayers is (at least to some degree) documented in the osm wiki. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml If we can duplicate these functions, then I'd suggest a polite discussion with SFD suggesting OSM for 2010 and onwards. Liz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:59:59 +1000, Liz wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml If we can duplicate these functions, then I'd suggest a polite discussion with SFD suggesting OSM for 2010 and onwards. You mean adding markers with a popup box? Like this little project of mine? http://map.debian-it.it/ David -- . ''`. Debian maintainer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://snipr.com/qa_page `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, David Paleino wrote: On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:59:59 +1000, Liz wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml If we can duplicate these functions, then I'd suggest a polite discussion with SFD suggesting OSM for 2010 and onwards. You mean adding markers with a popup box? Like this little project of mine? http://map.debian-it.it/ David looks like the same sort of functions ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 19:08:04 +1000, Liz wrote: On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, David Paleino wrote: On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:59:59 +1000, Liz wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml If we can duplicate these functions, then I'd suggest a polite discussion with SFD suggesting OSM for 2010 and onwards. You mean adding markers with a popup box? Like this little project of mine? http://map.debian-it.it/ looks like the same sort of functions Here's the code: http://git.debian-it.it/?p=users/debianit/map.git;a=summary git://git.debian-it.it/users/debianit/map.git Kindly, David -- . ''`. Debian maintainer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://snipr.com/qa_page `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
Liz wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? How about offer reliable service with good uptimes? After the recent maintenance weekend it was stated that our services are not really intended for the public (at least if they need them and don't just experiment with them) and we are only about data. If that's still the case, recommending the use of these services to the public doesn't seem like a good idea. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
2009/9/5 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: Liz wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? How about offer reliable service with good uptimes? After the recent maintenance weekend it was stated that our services are not really intended for the public (at least if they need them and don't just experiment with them) and we are only about data. If that's still the case, recommending the use of these services to the public doesn't seem like a good idea. With a number of people running map servers for the whole world there has to be some way that these can be leveraged for this purpose. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
Tobias Knerr wrote: How about offer reliable service with good uptimes? After the recent maintenance weekend it was stated that our services are not really intended for the public (at least if they need them and don't just experiment with them) and we are only about data. If that's still the case, recommending the use of these services to the public doesn't seem like a good idea. But aren't there some companies around offering exactly that sort of service using OSM data? I'm sure that I remember reading a blog from one of them once... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
Tobias Knerr wrote: How about offer reliable service with good uptimes? After the recent maintenance weekend it was stated that our services are not really intended for the public (at least if they need them and don't just experiment with them) and we are only about data. If that's still the case, recommending the use of these services to the public doesn't seem like a good idea. You're right that the mapping on openstreetmap.org isn't intended to be a reliable, full-scale service for the general public: It's a showcase and a mapper's tool. The idea is to get other sites to use the data to create the maps they want, rather than just using one set of tiles from us. To put it another way: We will have succeeded not when the public uses openstreetmap.org instead of Google Maps, but when Google Maps uses OpenStreetMap data instead of Navteq, Teleatlas, or other proprietary data sources. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
Jonathan Bennett schrieb: Tobias Knerr wrote: How about offer reliable service with good uptimes? After the recent maintenance weekend it was stated that our services are not really intended for the public (at least if they need them and don't just experiment with them) and we are only about data. If that's still the case, recommending the use of these services to the public doesn't seem like a good idea. You're right that the mapping on openstreetmap.org isn't intended to be a reliable, full-scale service for the general public: It's a showcase and a mapper's tool. The idea is to get other sites to use the data to create the maps they want, rather than just using one set of tiles from us. Hi! Is it really such a good idea to force each and every tiny website to set up their own map server when they only want to put some markers on a simple map (especially where there's no need for special rendering)? It really takes some effort to set up your own map server. It may not even be possible to host it on a cheap web account that most websites use. My feeling is that we should try to support (and not defend against ;-) such projects as SFD to use our maps, so open minded projects spread the word about OSM. Setting up a policy like: Unless you're producing a lot of traffic, you can use the map for your own project. Please note that the map may be down for maintenance for 1-2 days occasionally would be a probably good idea (well, if it's not already in the wiki somewhere) - so others know what they will get. This way it's much more likely that interested parties get involved in OSM and after a while working on their own map, when they recognize that it's possible with OSM - and if it makes sense for their project goal. Regards, ULFL P.S: I enjoyed to see that the latest maintenance downtimes were announced some days/weeks before it actually happened. The whole downtime process was much smoother compared to the API 0.5 switch. So all in all, I think for most projects the OSM base maps are just ok :-) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Jonathan Bennettopenstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk To put it another way: We will have succeeded not when the public uses openstreetmap.org instead of Google Maps, but when Google Maps uses OpenStreetMap data instead of Navteq, Teleatlas, or other proprietary data sources. I'm somewhat new to the project (a few months and a few mapping events), but I want to chime in here. I agree completely that the goals of making a free mapping platform are key to the project, but I'll tell you that I've already encountered people who are frustrated with the lack of good support in OSM for simple API calls. Let's do a head-to-head comparison between OSM and Google Maps Premium. The later costs $16,000 a year. That may sound like a great deal of money, but you have to remember that for a company, this isn't a large investment- they don't have to pay for the hosting costs, the server maintenance, etc. I think there's market here to work with companies to provide commercial OSM support- providing mapping data quickly, creating the styles people want, etc. The other reason this is important (going full circle on this topic) is that it needs to be easy for people to play with the OSM system without jumping in with both feet. I'll bet you the Free Software Day people aren't against OSM, but it needs to be super-simple to map with it for this one-time event. That's why projects like Mapstraction are so important to OSM. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml If we can duplicate these functions, then I'd suggest a polite discussion with SFD suggesting OSM for 2010 and onwards. You'll notice that Google is one of their Sponsors. Not that this should prevent them from using OSM data, but they might be reluctant to change from something that already works. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
2009/9/5 Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com: Jonathan Bennett schrieb: Tobias Knerr wrote: How about offer reliable service with good uptimes? After the recent maintenance weekend it was stated that our services are not really intended for the public (at least if they need them and don't just experiment with them) and we are only about data. If that's still the case, recommending the use of these services to the public doesn't seem like a good idea. You're right that the mapping on openstreetmap.org isn't intended to be a reliable, full-scale service for the general public: It's a showcase and a mapper's tool. The idea is to get other sites to use the data to create the maps they want, rather than just using one set of tiles from us. Hi! Is it really such a good idea to force each and every tiny website to set up their own map server when they only want to put some markers on a simple map (especially where there's no need for special rendering)? It really takes some effort to set up your own map server. It may not even be possible to host it on a cheap web account that most websites use. I agree, maybe it's worth to have a fundraiser for a separate, official mapnik server + super speedy hosting (unless the people involved with UCL think that we can have a reliable enough connection hosted free by UCL, or somebody else wants to offer reliable and free hosting). Since it's that important for the popularity of OSM I think it's well within OSMF mission statement to take on such a project. And since CloudMade's / others' hosted tiles are also free to use, it would not take away any money from those companies and remove business opportunities. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
I agree, maybe it's worth to have a fundraiser for a separate, official mapnik server + super speedy hosting (unless the people involved with UCL think that we can have a reliable enough connection hosted free by UCL, or somebody else wants to offer reliable and free hosting). Since it's that important for the popularity of OSM I think it's well within OSMF mission statement to take on such a project. And since CloudMade's / others' hosted tiles are also free to use, it would not take away any money from those companies and remove business opportunities. Cloudmade is already doing it. Don't know if they make business or offer it for free here. http://www.whitehouse.gov/change/ Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
2009/9/5 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: I agree, maybe it's worth to have a fundraiser for a separate, official mapnik server + super speedy hosting (unless the people involved with UCL think that we can have a reliable enough connection hosted free by UCL, or somebody else wants to offer reliable and free hosting). Since it's that important for the popularity of OSM I think it's well within OSMF mission statement to take on such a project. And since CloudMade's / others' hosted tiles are also free to use, it would not take away any money from those companies and remove business opportunities. Cloudmade is already doing it. Don't know if they make business or offer it for free here. http://www.whitehouse.gov/change/ Right, the difference is that with an official tile server we could have the main page or wiki point users to it. As it is now a lot of people would not agree for the main page to recommend CloudMade as the provider of choice and indeed it may be a little unfair. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On 5 Sep 2009, at 8:40 , andrzej zaborowski wrote: 2009/9/5 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: I agree, maybe it's worth to have a fundraiser for a separate, official mapnik server + super speedy hosting (unless the people involved with UCL think that we can have a reliable enough connection hosted free by UCL, or somebody else wants to offer reliable and free hosting). Since it's that important for the popularity of OSM I think it's well within OSMF mission statement to take on such a project. And since CloudMade's / others' hosted tiles are also free to use, it would not take away any money from those companies and remove business opportunities. Cloudmade is already doing it. Don't know if they make business or offer it for free here. http://www.whitehouse.gov/change/ Right, the difference is that with an official tile server we could have the main page or wiki point users to it. As it is now a lot of people would not agree for the main page to recommend CloudMade as the provider of choice and indeed it may be a little unfair. Cheers I am not against an official tile server with 100% uptime. And definitely the main OSM pages shouldn't use any commercial server. For any external use like SFD it makes sense to stay with a commercial solution where they can get paid support and customization if needed. Also Wikipedia started to set up their own map server based on osm data to have control of styles, updates, ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
2009/9/5 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: For any external use like SFD it makes sense to stay with a commercial solution where they can get paid support and customization if needed. My only issue with this is that it places OSM behind Google, because when you go to their website you get an official way of placing the map on your site and if your requirements are basic it's free and the server won't go down for two days in a year. You don't have to buy a commercial solution if you know basic html, but you're still offered the same reliability. Later we wonder why Software Freedom Day uses google maps instead of openstreetmaps. (That said, had anyone emailed them yet? I'll do it if not) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
andrzej zaborowski schrieb: 2009/9/5 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com: For any external use like SFD it makes sense to stay with a commercial solution where they can get paid support and customization if needed. My only issue with this is that it places OSM behind Google, because when you go to their website you get an official way of placing the map on your site and if your requirements are basic it's free and the server won't go down for two days in a year. You don't have to buy a commercial solution if you know basic html, but you're still offered the same reliability. Later we wonder why Software Freedom Day uses google maps instead of openstreetmaps. Well, I guess we'll always fall behind Google in terms of availability. But in a lot of cases, like: you can find us here that just doesn't really matter - especially for a community project :-) Please also note, that it's really easy to switch from OSM to Google maps (and back) if you're using openlayers. But you have to rewrite your javascript code (completely?) if you want to go from the Google API to OSM. So OSM is the secure choice to start with ... :-) Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Ian Dees wrote: On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: SFD is using a well known proprietary map on their web site. Is there anything in this which OSM or one of its derivatives can't do already? http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml If we can duplicate these functions, then I'd suggest a polite discussion with SFD suggesting OSM for 2010 and onwards. You'll notice that Google is one of their Sponsors. Not that this should prevent them from using OSM data, but they might be reluctant to change from something that already works. That's why we need to be able to demonstrate a working solution done with FOSS. And be polite. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Software Freedom Day
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ulf Lamping wrote: Please also note, that it's really easy to switch from OSM to Google maps (and back) if you're using openlayers. But you have to rewrite your javascript code (completely?) if you want to go from the Google API to OSM. In fact, you can show OSM tiles in Google JS, for example on this site: http://oxford.openguides.org/wiki/?St._Aldate%27s_Church There's even a bookmarklet (OSMify) you can run to add Mapnik, OSMA and Cycle layers to most 3rd party Google maps sites: http://blog.johnmckerrell.com/2007/12/31/new-version-of-osmify-bookmarklet/ I've just tested it on the Software Freedom Day site, and it works well. The only site it doesn't work on is Google's own main maps site. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkqi++AACgkQz+aYVHdncI1jcACfV3ba33Jx9K0tiaix3Nc8jQko 4ssAn1XTfWcskaagiNoT6Cm+nnYfFMdu =6EPC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
