Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Russ Nelson]

Tom Hughes writes:
 > For the record I personally was perfectly happy to see things like long 
 > obliterated railways removed from the standard rendering.

Railway=dismantled was never in the standard rendering. It was
railway=abandoned which was removed. I think you should be less than
perfectly happy about that.

The trouble is that some things which were dismantled were tagged as
abandoned. Now there is no incentive to fix the tagging because
properly tagged railways still won't get rendered. I suggested a
change which would create an incentive to fix the tagging on railways,
but  deaf ears.

The problem here is that the cabal which created OSM is still running
it. When they do a great job (which is the usual case), OSM is
awesome. And when they do a crappy job, OSM sucks. I really don't want
OSM to suck, so I push back hard against the crap.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[SomeoneElse]

On 25/07/2014 20:18, Andy Street wrote:
Yes this is a bug. I would have reported it myself but it appears that 
you need a GitHub account to do that rather than a standard OSM 
account. Please feel free to report it on my behalf. 


For info, I've created

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/765

based on this.

Cheers,

Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[James Mast]

I just hope that the 'tertiary_link' casing problem can be fixed soon.  In some 
places, that looks horrible.
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/753

-James


  ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[James Mast]

I just hope that the 'tertiary_link' casing problem can be fixed soon.  In some 
places, that looks horrible.

  ___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes (nature_reserve & highway=services)

[Dave F.]

So it is. Just came through now, with a bit of refreshing.


Thanks
Dave F.

On 25/07/2014 15:57, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
The issue with services seems to be already noticed and fixed - see 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/730



2014-07-25 16:30 GMT+02:00 Dave F. >:


Hi
Good to see updates for the mapnik rendering.

Unsure if these two problems are directly linked to these updates:

highway=services (ie service stations where you can get a
drink/meal etc) as an area are rendering as a high level layer
hiding detail such as car parks. Can this be put at a lower level?

leisure=nature_reserve
Used to have an infill of text 'NR'. that's been removed but not
replaced by anything, it's now just a faint border, at all levels,
which makes it extremely difficult to distinguish. According to
this

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/c505f51a930fe00977af8ae7fc2d58a36a659ff1
it was meant to render the same as national parks but doesn't
appear to work: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.4624/-2.4755

Cheers
Dave F.


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk






---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andy Street]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 18:01:40 +0100
Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> On 25 July 2014 12:52, Andy Street  wrote:
> >> * Cleaning up path rendering on low zooms
> >> (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747)
> >
> > Is there any chance this could be tweaked slightly? A lot of the
> > public footpaths near me are now disappearing completely
> > at z13/z14 because they include "access=private" as part of their
> > access tagging.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your comments. At first sight, this seems to be a
> tagging problem, but if you still disagree, feel free to open an issue
> on Github.

Yes this is a bug. I would have reported it myself but it appears that
you need a GitHub account to do that rather than a standard OSM
account. Please feel free to report it on my behalf.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes (nature_reserve & highway=services)

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 25 July 2014 15:30, Dave F.  wrote:
> highway=services (ie service stations where you can get a drink/meal etc) as
> an area are rendering as a high level layer hiding detail such as car parks.
> Can this be put at a lower level?

I created an issue for that here:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/764

> leisure=nature_reserve
> Used to have an infill of text 'NR'. that's been removed but not replaced by
> anything, it's now just a faint border, at all levels, which makes it
> extremely difficult to distinguish. According to this
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/c505f51a930fe00977af8ae7fc2d58a36a659ff1
> it was meant to render the same as national parks but doesn't appear to
> work: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.4624/-2.4755

I think it does render the same as national parks, but apparently that
is not enough. A issue for this exists already:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/563

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Matthijs Melissen]

Hi Tom,

On 25 July 2014 15:26, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> Traditionally we have always said that out web site is aimed at supporting
> mappers and not at providing end user services like helping people navigate
> - we provide the data to let other people build services like that.

I have been looking before at history of the mailing lists etc. to see
if I could find back discussions about the  'purpose of the main map',
but I couldn't find anything. I would be very interested to read what
has been discussed in the past about this topic, and which arguments
were given. Do you remember where this has been discussed? Even a
rough year, or whether it was the forum/mailing list/irc, would help
already. Hopefully you can help.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 25 July 2014 13:59, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson  wrote:
> I was under the impression more shops would be displayed than previously?
>
> So far I'm seeing fewer, a notable example being liquor stores that have now
> vanished from visual.
>
> Examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740

See https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/762.

> Also worrying that amenity=clinic still isn't displayed with the cross like
> pharmacy and others, in many rural places this is the only healthcare
> around.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227

See https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/763.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 25 July 2014 12:52, Andy Street  wrote:
>> * Cleaning up path rendering on low zooms
>> (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747)
>
> Is there any chance this could be tweaked slightly? A lot of the
> public footpaths near me are now disappearing completely
> at z13/z14 because they include "access=private" as part of their
> access tagging.


Thank you for your comments. At first sight, this seems to be a
tagging problem, but if you still disagree, feel free to open an issue
on Github.

-- Matthijs

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 25 July 2014, Christian Quest wrote:
>
> On the first zoom levels, I think we can put the priority on map
> users a little bit more... but as map contributors are more checking
> their work at the highest zoom levels we should stick with strict
> rendering showing errors. Doing more than that seems difficult or
> impossible to me.

My observation is often the actual design is more or less the other way 
round, the highest zoom levels are mostly designed to be useful, at 
least in the urban environment.  On intermediate scales the map style 
is fairly selective showing only certain things sometimes based on a 
somewhat arbitrary selection leading people to frequently apply tags 
specifically to make elements show up.  At the same time it gives 
fairly little orientation for the map user.  And the lowest zoom levels 
are not given much consideration at all, making them neither useful for 
the map user nor for the mapper. 

This is of course a subjective impression - it might appear quite 
differently for others.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Tom Hughes]

On 25/07/14 15:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2014-07-25 16:38 GMT+02:00 Tom Hughes mailto:t...@compton.nu>>:

I would dispute the claim that the Hertford East<->North link is in
any way a "significant feature in the landscape".



Looking at this http://www.hertford.net/images/Hertford_East_Sidings.jpg
it seems to be.


That is one little bit of track by the station at Hertford East and yes, 
including that as a disused siding would be fine. Basically that is the 
bit you can see here:


  http://maps.compton.nu/compare#18/51.79990/-0.06999/mapnik/bsa

where the start of the old track comes off just before the station and 
loops round the back of the current platform.


You won't find any sign of it like that west of the station. For example 
the bit here:


  http://maps.compton.nu/compare#18/51.79986/-0.07726/mapnik/bsa

is now a very long thin car park, and the bit here:

  http://maps.compton.nu/compare#18/51.80072/-0.08732/mapnik/bsa

is now a footpath (the line of trees in the aerial) and this bit:

  http://maps.compton.nu/compare#19/51.79602/-0.09156/mapnik/bsa

which used to be the link with the Hertford Loop south of the station at 
Hertford North is now used as an access road for track maintenance.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes (nature_reserve & highway=services)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

The issue with services seems to be already noticed and fixed - see
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/730


2014-07-25 16:30 GMT+02:00 Dave F. :

> Hi
> Good to see updates for the mapnik rendering.
>
> Unsure if these two problems are directly linked to these updates:
>
> highway=services (ie service stations where you can get a drink/meal etc)
> as an area are rendering as a high level layer hiding detail such as car
> parks. Can this be put at a lower level?
>
> leisure=nature_reserve
> Used to have an infill of text 'NR'. that's been removed but not replaced
> by anything, it's now just a faint border, at all levels, which makes it
> extremely difficult to distinguish. According to this https://github.com/
> gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/c505f51a930fe00977af8ae7fc2d58
> a36a659ff1 it was meant to render the same as national parks but doesn't
> appear to work: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.4624/-2.4755
>
> Cheers
> Dave F.
>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
> protection is active.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Christian Quest]

2014-07-25 16:20 GMT+02:00 SomeoneElse :

> On 25/07/2014 15:03, Tom Hughes wrote:
>
>>
>> How about assuming good intent ...
>>
>
> No-one's suggesting anything other than "people wanting to make the
> standard layer better".  It's "better for what" that's the issue.  I think
> that we ought to be making a map style that better helps people navigate to
> where they want to go.
>
>  ... and making suggestions on how to improve things
>>
>
> A number of people tried that on
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/542
>
> all feedback pretty much fell on deaf ears.
>


"better for what" is really the question... and the answer is not clear nor
shared.

For a large group, it should show OSM data, a lot of it to have quick
feedback to new contributions as it motivates to go on.
A side goal is to keep incorrectly tagged data not visible.
This means the default map is made primarily for contributors as reminded
by Tom.

Another goal is to make the map useful for a larger audience, to show that
OSM is a cool and useful project.
The rendering in that case puts the priority on map users, and thus should
deal with tagging inconsistencies, improve OSM data with some additional
ones (hillshade, contours, and maybe more).

It seems to me quite difficult to achieve both at the same time as there
are a lot of contradictions.

On the first zoom levels, I think we can put the priority on map users a
little bit more... but as map contributors are more checking their work at
the highest zoom levels we should stick with strict rendering showing
errors. Doing more than that seems difficult or impossible to me.

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-07-25 16:38 GMT+02:00 Tom Hughes :

> I would dispute the claim that the Hertford East<->North link is in any
> way a "significant feature in the landscape".
>


Looking at this http://www.hertford.net/images/Hertford_East_Sidings.jpg it
seems to be.
looking here it doesn't seem to be:
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hertford_north/hertford_north_aerial2.jpg

maybe there is a big difference between H East and North?

cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Tom Hughes]

On 25/07/14 15:33, SomeoneElse wrote:


On 25/07/2014 15:26, Tom Hughes wrote:


For the record I personally was perfectly happy to see things like
long obliterated railways removed from the standard rendering.


We never (well not for 5 years or so?) rendered dismantled railways -
it's the removal of those that _weren't_ obliterated but are still a
significant feature in the landscape that's the issue!


I would dispute the claim that the Hertford East<->North link is in any 
way a "significant feature in the landscape".


Sure if you know about it and you look hard you can figure out where it 
went, and where a piece of footpath is part of the old track bed, but 
we want it to render on the primary map as a footpath, not a damned railway.


That's true to my mind even west of Hertford where it becomes the Cole 
Green Way which is much less mangled - the right of way is still there 
without tracks (and even has some station platforms) but what it is to 
people on the ground now is a foot/cycle path, not a railway.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[SomeoneElse]

On 25/07/2014 15:26, Tom Hughes wrote:


Traditionally we have always said that out web site is aimed at 
supporting mappers 


That certainly used to be the case, but the most recent series of 
changes have all being about "showing less" rather than "showing more".  
How does that "support mappers"?


For the record I personally was perfectly happy to see things like 
long obliterated railways removed from the standard rendering.


We never (well not for 5 years or so?) rendered dismantled railways - 
it's the removal of those that _weren't_ obliterated but are still a 
significant feature in the landscape that's the issue!


Cheers,

Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andy Street]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:18:16 +0200
Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> "[highway=footway; vehicle=private] it can
> be used by pedestrians but some people may drive here"

The trouble is that you are merging the distinction between "highway"
and "access". Your example above would, to me, indicate a way for use by
single-tracked vehicles and therefore not something that you'd attempt
to drive a car along.

I've done this sort of thing a lot for what is known in England as a
"byway open to all traffic" where you have the legal right to drive a
motorcar but often the condition of the way has become so bad that it
is physically impossible for any dual-tracked vehicle to do so.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes (nature_reserve & highway=services)

[Dave F.]

Hi
Good to see updates for the mapnik rendering.

Unsure if these two problems are directly linked to these updates:

highway=services (ie service stations where you can get a drink/meal 
etc) as an area are rendering as a high level layer hiding detail such 
as car parks. Can this be put at a lower level?


leisure=nature_reserve
Used to have an infill of text 'NR'. that's been removed but not 
replaced by anything, it's now just a faint border, at all levels, which 
makes it extremely difficult to distinguish. According to this 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/commit/c505f51a930fe00977af8ae7fc2d58a36a659ff1 
it was meant to render the same as national parks but doesn't appear to 
work: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.4624/-2.4755


Cheers
Dave F.


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[SomeoneElse]

On 25/07/2014 15:03, Tom Hughes wrote:


How about assuming good intent ... 


No-one's suggesting anything other than "people wanting to make the 
standard layer better".  It's "better for what" that's the issue.  I 
think that we ought to be making a map style that better helps people 
navigate to where they want to go.


... and making suggestions on how to improve things 


A number of people tried that on

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/542

all feedback pretty much fell on deaf ears.

Cheers,

Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Tom Hughes]

On 25/07/14 15:20, SomeoneElse wrote:

On 25/07/2014 15:03, Tom Hughes wrote:


How about assuming good intent ...


No-one's suggesting anything other than "people wanting to make the
standard layer better".  It's "better for what" that's the issue.  I
think that we ought to be making a map style that better helps people
navigate to where they want to go.


Traditionally we have always said that out web site is aimed at 
supporting mappers and not at providing end user services like helping 
people navigate - we provide the data to let other people build services 
like that.



... and making suggestions on how to improve things


A number of people tried that on

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/542

all feedback pretty much fell on deaf ears.


Just because somebody doesn't do what you want doesn't mean it fell on 
deaf ears of course, just that they didn't agree with you ;-)


That's especially true because it tends only to be the people that are 
opposed to a change that comment - it's much hard to get people that are 
happy with a change to comment.


For the record I personally was perfectly happy to see things like long 
obliterated railways removed from the standard rendering.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Tom Hughes]

On 25/07/14 14:51, SomeoneElse wrote:


I do get the impression that these changes haven't really been thought
through at all - no thought given to what the impact will be worldwide
(as opposed to a couple of well-mapped cities), no thought about tablet
or phone access, no attempt at QA (to let people look at the impact
before becoming the new "standard layer").


How about assuming good intent and making suggestions on how to improve 
thing rather than starting by slagging off the people that are doing all 
the hard work to try and improve things?


It's pretty much impossible to tell in advance what the impact of any 
given change will be on every possible combination of tags that may have 
been used somewhere on earth.


Sure, it would be lovely to have a test server where changes could be 
tried before putting them live. We don't have infinite resources though.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[SomeoneElse]

On 25/07/2014 14:03, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
From this description - I would tag it as highway=footway (as for 
public it is a footway and I guess that it is used

primarily as footway, not as a driveway)


It's not used primarily as a footway - it's primarily a track used to 
access farmland and a golf course.  However, foot traffic does have a 
legal right of way over it.  I am concerned, however, that we'll see the 
same sort of "tagging for the renderer" that we saw with abandoned 
railways after that change was made.


I do get the impression that these changes haven't really been thought 
through at all - no thought given to what the impact will be worldwide 
(as opposed to a couple of well-mapped cities), no thought about tablet 
or phone access, no attempt at QA (to let people look at the impact 
before becoming the new "standard layer").


We seem to have ended up with a layer that looks prettier, but is much 
less useful as an actual _map_ to help people navigate from one place to 
another.


Cheers,

Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-07-25 15:03 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> From this description - I would tag it as highway=footway (as for public
> it is a footway and I guess that it is used
> primarily as footway, not as a driveway) with vehicle=private (as owner
> may use it this way). I am unsure about
> value of foot tag, but I probably would leave default value as footway.



I would tag this as highway=service, access=private, foot=yes because if it
can be used by car as a service way by the owner and his guests, it is a
service and not a footway.
The question isn't if is is used "primarily" as .

cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Addendum: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951086 is a sport shop, 
only displayed as the address number as well.


On my screen I see a purple dot in zoom 19, the address number at zoom
18 and nothing in zoom 17. Before a liquor store was a basket with a 
wine bottle or

similar.

So I'm very confused now, are the carto changes partially alive or am I 
seeing different things to what others see - am I getting my tiles from 
a different server?


--Jói


Þann 25.07.2014 13:04, Mateusz Konieczny reit:

Both linked shops are displayed.

2014-07-25 14:59 GMT+02:00 Jóhannes Birgir Jensson :


I was under the impression more shops would be displayed than
previously?

So far I'm seeing fewer, a notable example being liquor stores that
have now vanished from visual.

Examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075 [1]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740 [2]

Also worrying that amenity=clinic still isn't displayed with the
cross like pharmacy and others, in many rural places this is the
only healthcare around.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227 [3]

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [4]




Links:
--
[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740
[3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227
[4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Still, I think that it is better to use cascading tags - put as much
valuable info in basic tags (highway and access in this case)
so it is not be necessary to process all tags to achieve good results.

So "[highway=footway] it can be used by pedestrians", maybe
"[highway=footway; vehicle=private] it can
be used by pedestrians but some people may drive here" rather than
"[highway=track; access=private; foot=yes]
it is road for agricultural use but only owner may use but pedestrian may
always use so for public it is footway".

Obviously many tools that would be able to poperly process the first
situation will fail on the second tagging scheme.



2014-07-25 15:02 GMT+02:00 Andy Street :

> On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:41:44 +0200
> Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> > IMHO it is a tagging error as it should be tagged as [highway=footway;
> > foot=permissive]
> > Using yes rather than permissive also seems to be wrong in this case.
>
> It isn't permissive as the landowner does not have the right to refuse
> access.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Andy Street
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

On my screen I see a purple dot in zoom 19, the address number at zoom 
18 and nothing in zoom 17. Before I was a basket with a wine bottle or 
similar.


Þann 25.07.2014 13:04, Mateusz Konieczny reit:

Both linked shops are displayed.

2014-07-25 14:59 GMT+02:00 Jóhannes Birgir Jensson :


I was under the impression more shops would be displayed than
previously?

So far I'm seeing fewer, a notable example being liquor stores that
have now vanished from visual.

Examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075 [1]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740 [2]

Also worrying that amenity=clinic still isn't displayed with the
cross like pharmacy and others, in many rural places this is the
only healthcare around.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227 [3]

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [4]




Links:
--
[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740
[3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227
[4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Both linked shops are displayed.


2014-07-25 14:59 GMT+02:00 Jóhannes Birgir Jensson :

> I was under the impression more shops would be displayed than previously?
>
> So far I'm seeing fewer, a notable example being liquor stores that have
> now vanished from visual.
>
> Examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740
>
> Also worrying that amenity=clinic still isn't displayed with the cross
> like pharmacy and others, in many rural places this is the only healthcare
> around.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

>From this description - I would tag it as highway=footway (as for public it
is a footway and I guess that it is used
primarily as footway, not as a driveway) with vehicle=private (as owner may
use it this way). I am unsure about
value of foot tag, but I probably would leave default value as footway.

Obviously, I am guessing here from partial information so I will not edit
this way.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/May+Lodge+Dr,+Newark,+Nottinghamshire+NG22+9DE,+UK/@53.172742,-1.043641,3a,75y,98.09h,77.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sn68ymucXmhGrdQIXSeTSKA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x4879baf421f089cf:0x862c8d6e158f44f0?hl=en
was not helpful as either this image or OSM is outdated (I see no signs
here that would indicate access restrictions)

2014-07-25 14:49 GMT+02:00 SomeoneElse :

> On 25/07/2014 13:41, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> IMHO it is a tagging error as it should be tagged as [highway=footway;
>> foot=permissive]
>> Using yes rather than permissive also seems to be wrong in this case.
>>
>>
> Is my "highway=track" example also a tagging error?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andy Street]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:41:44 +0200
Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> IMHO it is a tagging error as it should be tagged as [highway=footway;
> foot=permissive]
> Using yes rather than permissive also seems to be wrong in this case.

It isn't permissive as the landowner does not have the right to refuse
access.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

I was under the impression more shops would be displayed than 
previously?


So far I'm seeing fewer, a notable example being liquor stores that have 
now vanished from visual.


Examples: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2939951075
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2125818740

Also worrying that amenity=clinic still isn't displayed with the cross 
like pharmacy and others, in many rural places this is the only 
healthcare around.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2303511227

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andy Street]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:16:34 +0200
Cartinus  wrote:

> No, it is not a tagging error. It is a direct result of the unholy
> mess created by the definition of the path tag. Often the only way to
> tag working access restrictions on highway=path, is to first close it
> with access=no/private and then opening it up with more specific tags
> like foot=permissive.

This really has nothing to do with "highway=path" as it could equally
apply to other tags including "highway=footway" and "highway=track".
The issue is that the style sheet does not take into account all access
tags but merely the most general "access" tag.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[SomeoneElse]

On 25/07/2014 13:41, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
IMHO it is a tagging error as it should be tagged as [highway=footway; 
foot=permissive]

Using yes rather than permissive also seems to be wrong in this case.



Is my "highway=track" example also a tagging error?

Cheers,

Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andreas Goss]

Am 7/25/14 14:21 , schrieb Andy Street:

It's a public footpath i.e. private property over which the public has
been granted a right of access (on foot). Since everything but
pedestrian access is not permitted it therefore tagged as
"access=private", "foot=yes".


Not an expert here, but this sounds more like:

access=permissive - Open to general traffic until such time as the owner 
revokes the permission which they are legally allowed to do at any time 
in the future.

(+foot=yes...)

__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

IMHO it is a tagging error as it should be tagged as [highway=footway;
foot=permissive]
Using yes rather than permissive also seems to be wrong in this case.


2014-07-25 14:21 GMT+02:00 Andy Street :

> On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 13:58:18 +0200
> Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> > It is a tagging error to tag public footways as access=private. Can
> > you give an example? It seems that I miss something in this case.
>
> It's a public footpath i.e. private property over which the public has
> been granted a right of access (on foot). Since everything but
> pedestrian access is not permitted it therefore tagged as
> "access=private", "foot=yes".
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Andy Street
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[SomeoneElse]

On 25/07/2014 13:21, Andy Street wrote:
It's a public footpath i.e. private property over which the public has 
been granted a right of access (on foot). Since everything but 
pedestrian access is not permitted it therefore tagged as 
"access=private", "foot=yes". 


This isn't Andy's example, but is a track near me that is part of a 
long-distance trail


http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/148162841

It's designated a public footpath and designated foot=yes.  It 
disappears from the map completely at Z14


Yes, I can highlight the trail on sites such as this:

http://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/en/?zoom=14&lat=53.17307&lon=-1.03595&hill=0

but unfortunately this uses OSM "standard" tiles as the background, so 
the trail is running across a blank map!


Cheers,

(a different) Andy


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andy Street]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 13:58:18 +0200
Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> It is a tagging error to tag public footways as access=private. Can
> you give an example? It seems that I miss something in this case.

It's a public footpath i.e. private property over which the public has
been granted a right of access (on foot). Since everything but
pedestrian access is not permitted it therefore tagged as
"access=private", "foot=yes".

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Cartinus]

No, it is not a tagging error. It is a direct result of the unholy mess 
created by the definition of the path tag. Often the only way to tag 
working access restrictions on highway=path, is to first close it with 
access=no/private and then opening it up with more specific tags like 
foot=permissive.


On 25-07-14 13:58, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

It is a tagging error to tag public footways as access=private. Can you
give an example? It seems that I miss something in this case.


2014-07-25 13:52 GMT+02:00 Andy Street :


On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:51:24 -0700
Paul Norman  wrote:


* Cleaning up path rendering on low zooms
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747)


Is there any chance this could be tweaked slightly? A lot of the
public footpaths near me are now disappearing completely
at z13/z14 because they include "access=private" as part of their
access tagging.


---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It is a tagging error to tag public footways as access=private. Can you
give an example? It seems that I miss something in this case.


2014-07-25 13:52 GMT+02:00 Andy Street :

> On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:51:24 -0700
> Paul Norman  wrote:
>
> > * Cleaning up path rendering on low zooms
> > (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747)
>
> Is there any chance this could be tweaked slightly? A lot of the
> public footpaths near me are now disappearing completely
> at z13/z14 because they include "access=private" as part of their
> access tagging.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Andy Street
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Andy Street]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:51:24 -0700
Paul Norman  wrote:

> * Cleaning up path rendering on low zooms 
> (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747)

Is there any chance this could be tweaked slightly? A lot of the
public footpaths near me are now disappearing completely
at z13/z14 because they include "access=private" as part of their
access tagging.

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[François Lacombe]

+1. Really great job, thank you guys :)


*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com


2014-07-23 11:38 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić :

> It's great to see the default map layer finally moving forward!
>
>
> Janko
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Janko Mihelić]

It's great to see the default map layer finally moving forward!


Janko
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Upcoming openstreetmap-carto changes

[Paul Norman]

v2.17.0 of the openstreetmap-carto stylesheet has been released, though 
not yet deployed on tile.osm.org.


Significant changes include

* Rendering other shop values with a generic icon 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/604)
* Rendering wider road shields, and converting the road shields to SVGs 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/694)
* Cleaning up path rendering on low zooms 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747)
* Improving highway=track name rendering 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/748)
* Rendering access=permissive the same as access=yes (or no access) 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/742)
* Waterway cleanups 
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/722, and others)

* Assorted code cleanups

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/compare/v2.16.0...v2.17.0 
has a full list of commits.


We are still very much cleaning up a lot of messy CartoCSS brought over 
from the Mapnik XML


Some interesting stuff under discussion

* Multi-line road shield rendering: 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/750
* Rendering ref from route relationships: 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/596
* Moving ordering of road rendering to SQL: 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/626
* Moving to YAML for project layers: 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/711


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk