Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
On 05-Dec-17 08:42 AM, Yves wrote: I like the idea of voting to praise a good documentation. The tools are available in the wiki, so why not try it out on a non debatable tagging scheme (maybe landcover wouldn't be a good idea for a try). Yves There is usually room for improvement in any documentation particularly for documents read by different cultures. What may appear to be excellent 'English' well understood by an American could be misinterpreted and/or confusing to an Irishman. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
I like the idea of voting to praise a good documentation. The tools are available in the wiki, so why not try it out on a non debatable tagging scheme (maybe landcover wouldn't be a good idea for a try). Yves Le 4 décembre 2017 18:47:00 GMT+01:00, Tobias Knerra écrit : >Hi Roland, > >On 04.12.2017 09:42, Roland Olbricht wrote: >> We recently had an experienced and productive community member, Ilya, >> putting a lot of time in a Wiki Proposal just to see the whole >process >> fail. > >there's an important distinction here: It's Ilya's proposal that has >failed (for now at least), not the proposal process. That proposals are >sometimes rejected is an inherent part of that process. > >I've written several proposals over the years, and while some of them >have been accepted, I've always learned something from the ones that >weren't. Just because I'm an experienced contributor doesn't mean all >my >ideas are great – and the proposal process is a way to weed out those >of >my ideas that aren't. > >I'm not trying to suggest that the proposal system cannot possibly be >improved upon. However, Ilya's proposal was pretty unusual as far as >proposals go: It had a couple specific flaws which you already hinted >at >(such as trying to do too much at once and writing in a "documentation >page" format instead of describing the changes to be voted on), so it's >likely not the best basis for generalizing observations to the proposal >process as a whole. > >> I suggest to replace the Proposal process by three more specialized >> and therefore much simpler processes. They are structured by what >they >> can affect. >[...] >> === Distinguished Documentation === [...] >> === Wiki Cleanup === [...] >> === Tag Disambiguation === > >At the moment, the proposal process isn't really intended for things >that _only_ affect the wiki, it's always an attempt to come to an >agreement on how to tag things in the database. So most of these items >seem to be outside the scope of what proposals are suitable for. >Generally, I don't believe a democratic process is the best way to >produce well-written documentation. > >Tobias > >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
Hi Roland, On 04.12.2017 09:42, Roland Olbricht wrote: > We recently had an experienced and productive community member, Ilya, > putting a lot of time in a Wiki Proposal just to see the whole process > fail. there's an important distinction here: It's Ilya's proposal that has failed (for now at least), not the proposal process. That proposals are sometimes rejected is an inherent part of that process. I've written several proposals over the years, and while some of them have been accepted, I've always learned something from the ones that weren't. Just because I'm an experienced contributor doesn't mean all my ideas are great – and the proposal process is a way to weed out those of my ideas that aren't. I'm not trying to suggest that the proposal system cannot possibly be improved upon. However, Ilya's proposal was pretty unusual as far as proposals go: It had a couple specific flaws which you already hinted at (such as trying to do too much at once and writing in a "documentation page" format instead of describing the changes to be voted on), so it's likely not the best basis for generalizing observations to the proposal process as a whole. > I suggest to replace the Proposal process by three more specialized > and therefore much simpler processes. They are structured by what they > can affect. [...] > === Distinguished Documentation === [...] > === Wiki Cleanup === [...] > === Tag Disambiguation === At the moment, the proposal process isn't really intended for things that _only_ affect the wiki, it's always an attempt to come to an agreement on how to tag things in the database. So most of these items seem to be outside the scope of what proposals are suitable for. Generally, I don't believe a democratic process is the best way to produce well-written documentation. Tobias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
2017-12-04 12:36 GMT+01:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>: > There is a specific OSM list for tagging .. where proposals are > discussed, etc. This is in addition to any wiki discussion! +1, but it is really "in addition" (mostly, people do not post their comments and concerns in both places). The tagging mailing list is mandatory for the proposal process (announcing RFC and voting start) > But OSM does allow the creation of new tags by anyone without going > through the proposal process, so there are things like > man_made=cairn and landmark=cairn which appear to be the same thing to me. It could be interpreted that the latter is about a cairn which is a landmark while the former is about any cairn (but there is not documentation enforcing this view). Actually, there used to be documentation referring to the "landmark" key, but it was removed: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:landmark=next=887875 (This documentation is from OpenSeaMap (or one of the other sea mapping projects, I'm not sure) and was referring only to landmarks visible from the sea, so the key was disputed with this definition for being too generic in its key name in the past) Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
There is a specific OSM list for tagging .. where proposals are discussed, etc. This is in addition to any wiki discussion! The proposal process should get contributions from those interested in tag improvements and additions. But OSM does allow the creation of new tags by anyone without going through the proposal process, so there are things like man_made=cairn and landmark=cairn which appear to be the same thing to me. So no matter how the tagging proposal process is refined there will still be problems created out side the proposal process. Personally .. I think the proposal should first address the issue of 'is it useful' (or, as some say, do 'we' want it)? Once that is voted on then how is it to be categorised, what is it to be called and so on - each set to be a vote possibly with multiple choices. This reduces the work load of the proposer as they can see it it will pass the first hurdle and then each successive stage gets a majority view. But this should be discussed on the tagging specific list. On 04-Dec-17 08:13 PM, Andrew Hain wrote: I would suggest that this is part of a wider malaise that the mission of the wiki has become unclear. -- Andrew *From:* Roland Olbricht <roland.olbri...@gmx.de> *Sent:* 04 December 2017 08:42:46 *To:* osm-talk *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber? Hi all, We recently had an experienced and productive community member, Ilya, putting a lot of time in a Wiki Proposal just to see the whole process fail. Given the feedback from the process, this has been due to a whole bunch of hard-to-control problems - the whole thing has been too complex - the wording did cause misunderstandings - attempt to discuss the matter in an unsuitable medium If even an experienced member cannot handle the process then we should reconsider whether the process of Wiki Proposals makes sense at all. I suggest to replace the Proposal process by three more specialized and therefore much simpler processes. They are structured by what they can affect. In particular, the discussion should go to better suited places than the infamous Wiki page discussion shadow pages: Ilya complained that at the wiki discussion page turned into a complete mess of "56K text". I do agree that the wiki page is a hard-to-read mess, but yet it has only the content of 10-30 messages. There had even been expressed deprecation that the discussion spilled into the voting section because it is so difficult to read. For comparison: My mail client currently handles more than 100'000 messages and is still fast and comfortable to use. Even in the forum where users are stuck with what the web interface allows, it is easy to have discussions with some hundred responses. This should remind us that the wiki discussion facility is unsuited for any nontrivial discussion but it disguises as sufficient discussion facility. Note that on the same time there is a group of 350 community members who have indicated to be interested in public transport. Ilya stated as a reson that the corresponding mailing list has "less than 3 messages" per month. The content equivalence of "3 messages" on a wiki discussion page already would make the impression of a heated discussion. Apparently the wiki discussion pages have distracted him from the real audience. Please note: It does not make sense to discuss the redesign of one communication channel in another communication channel. But the wiki does not have a suitable place to discuss the issue. Hence I cross-post to the forum to at least reach also a large portion of the less tech-savvy community members. I suggest the following three specialized replacements for the Proposal process: === Distinguished Documentation === OSM could profit in a lot of cases from a good how-to map for particular subjects. But at the same time exists poor documentation and people do not necessary know which to trust. Writing a good documentation will become more rewarding if we can offer a process to indicate general acclaim and distinguish excellent documentation. The voting confirms that the claims of the documentation reflect actual mapping practice. That way, it makes the effort a distinguished documentation. It des not affect any existing wiki pages. It does not affect the OSM database. === Wiki Cleanup === Amongst the real problems of OSM is that our wiki documentation has lots of poorly maintained pages. There exist even contradictions between different pages. For an unexperienced users it is difficult to figure out which wiki pages are really applicable. We need a decision process which of the contradictive statements can be discarded. The hurdles should not be too high because we generally do have too few maintenance of the wiki content. Nonetheless, as this does give some rulesets a spin in favour of others, it should be subject to a voting. There s
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
I would suggest that this is part of a wider malaise that the mission of the wiki has become unclear. -- Andrew From: Roland Olbricht <roland.olbri...@gmx.de> Sent: 04 December 2017 08:42:46 To: osm-talk Subject: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber? Hi all, We recently had an experienced and productive community member, Ilya, putting a lot of time in a Wiki Proposal just to see the whole process fail. Given the feedback from the process, this has been due to a whole bunch of hard-to-control problems - the whole thing has been too complex - the wording did cause misunderstandings - attempt to discuss the matter in an unsuitable medium If even an experienced member cannot handle the process then we should reconsider whether the process of Wiki Proposals makes sense at all. I suggest to replace the Proposal process by three more specialized and therefore much simpler processes. They are structured by what they can affect. In particular, the discussion should go to better suited places than the infamous Wiki page discussion shadow pages: Ilya complained that at the wiki discussion page turned into a complete mess of "56K text". I do agree that the wiki page is a hard-to-read mess, but yet it has only the content of 10-30 messages. There had even been expressed deprecation that the discussion spilled into the voting section because it is so difficult to read. For comparison: My mail client currently handles more than 100'000 messages and is still fast and comfortable to use. Even in the forum where users are stuck with what the web interface allows, it is easy to have discussions with some hundred responses. This should remind us that the wiki discussion facility is unsuited for any nontrivial discussion but it disguises as sufficient discussion facility. Note that on the same time there is a group of 350 community members who have indicated to be interested in public transport. Ilya stated as a reson that the corresponding mailing list has "less than 3 messages" per month. The content equivalence of "3 messages" on a wiki discussion page already would make the impression of a heated discussion. Apparently the wiki discussion pages have distracted him from the real audience. Please note: It does not make sense to discuss the redesign of one communication channel in another communication channel. But the wiki does not have a suitable place to discuss the issue. Hence I cross-post to the forum to at least reach also a large portion of the less tech-savvy community members. I suggest the following three specialized replacements for the Proposal process: === Distinguished Documentation === OSM could profit in a lot of cases from a good how-to map for particular subjects. But at the same time exists poor documentation and people do not necessary know which to trust. Writing a good documentation will become more rewarding if we can offer a process to indicate general acclaim and distinguish excellent documentation. The voting confirms that the claims of the documentation reflect actual mapping practice. That way, it makes the effort a distinguished documentation. It des not affect any existing wiki pages. It does not affect the OSM database. === Wiki Cleanup === Amongst the real problems of OSM is that our wiki documentation has lots of poorly maintained pages. There exist even contradictions between different pages. For an unexperienced users it is difficult to figure out which wiki pages are really applicable. We need a decision process which of the contradictive statements can be discarded. The hurdles should not be too high because we generally do have too few maintenance of the wiki content. Nonetheless, as this does give some rulesets a spin in favour of others, it should be subject to a voting. There should be left a success notice after the cleanup has actually been done. The document must state which wiki pages are considered authoriative. It should state which wiki pages are to be changed. It can list the used tags, tagging combinations, or data constellations that are in scope of the document at all. It should state which used tags, tagging combinations, or data constellations will after the change newly contradict the wiki. Affects the wiki. Does not affect the OSM database. === Tag Disambiguation === Sometimes different people tag different types of objects with the same tags. This is a problem because you do no longer know what is really there. It is the core concern of the old Proposal process. Given that backwards compatbility is nowadays an important virtue, the preferred solution is to add an extra tag to distinguish the different situations. The voting is to check that the disambiguation is logically sound and that it covers the vast majority of applicable constellations. Affects the wiki: the description of the affected tags and tag combinations are changed. Affect the OSM database: mappers
[OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?
Hi all, We recently had an experienced and productive community member, Ilya, putting a lot of time in a Wiki Proposal just to see the whole process fail. Given the feedback from the process, this has been due to a whole bunch of hard-to-control problems - the whole thing has been too complex - the wording did cause misunderstandings - attempt to discuss the matter in an unsuitable medium If even an experienced member cannot handle the process then we should reconsider whether the process of Wiki Proposals makes sense at all. I suggest to replace the Proposal process by three more specialized and therefore much simpler processes. They are structured by what they can affect. In particular, the discussion should go to better suited places than the infamous Wiki page discussion shadow pages: Ilya complained that at the wiki discussion page turned into a complete mess of "56K text". I do agree that the wiki page is a hard-to-read mess, but yet it has only the content of 10-30 messages. There had even been expressed deprecation that the discussion spilled into the voting section because it is so difficult to read. For comparison: My mail client currently handles more than 100'000 messages and is still fast and comfortable to use. Even in the forum where users are stuck with what the web interface allows, it is easy to have discussions with some hundred responses. This should remind us that the wiki discussion facility is unsuited for any nontrivial discussion but it disguises as sufficient discussion facility. Note that on the same time there is a group of 350 community members who have indicated to be interested in public transport. Ilya stated as a reson that the corresponding mailing list has "less than 3 messages" per month. The content equivalence of "3 messages" on a wiki discussion page already would make the impression of a heated discussion. Apparently the wiki discussion pages have distracted him from the real audience. Please note: It does not make sense to discuss the redesign of one communication channel in another communication channel. But the wiki does not have a suitable place to discuss the issue. Hence I cross-post to the forum to at least reach also a large portion of the less tech-savvy community members. I suggest the following three specialized replacements for the Proposal process: === Distinguished Documentation === OSM could profit in a lot of cases from a good how-to map for particular subjects. But at the same time exists poor documentation and people do not necessary know which to trust. Writing a good documentation will become more rewarding if we can offer a process to indicate general acclaim and distinguish excellent documentation. The voting confirms that the claims of the documentation reflect actual mapping practice. That way, it makes the effort a distinguished documentation. It des not affect any existing wiki pages. It does not affect the OSM database. === Wiki Cleanup === Amongst the real problems of OSM is that our wiki documentation has lots of poorly maintained pages. There exist even contradictions between different pages. For an unexperienced users it is difficult to figure out which wiki pages are really applicable. We need a decision process which of the contradictive statements can be discarded. The hurdles should not be too high because we generally do have too few maintenance of the wiki content. Nonetheless, as this does give some rulesets a spin in favour of others, it should be subject to a voting. There should be left a success notice after the cleanup has actually been done. The document must state which wiki pages are considered authoriative. It should state which wiki pages are to be changed. It can list the used tags, tagging combinations, or data constellations that are in scope of the document at all. It should state which used tags, tagging combinations, or data constellations will after the change newly contradict the wiki. Affects the wiki. Does not affect the OSM database. === Tag Disambiguation === Sometimes different people tag different types of objects with the same tags. This is a problem because you do no longer know what is really there. It is the core concern of the old Proposal process. Given that backwards compatbility is nowadays an important virtue, the preferred solution is to add an extra tag to distinguish the different situations. The voting is to check that the disambiguation is logically sound and that it covers the vast majority of applicable constellations. Affects the wiki: the description of the affected tags and tag combinations are changed. Affect the OSM database: mappers are adviced to systematically change tags in the course of local maintenance. === Remarks === There are other purposes advertised on the pages of the Proposal process. Most notably an invitation for general discussion. I do discourage them. From all the