Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:23 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> Pull requests work and that is exactly scheme used now - by iD, JOSM,
> Vespucci, StreetComplete etc.
>

Ahem, actually no, they do not -- as demonstrated by the recent scandal
with iD presets.  Community is disconnected from developers.


> "Accept all changes from Wiki" or "Treat changes from wiki as submitter
> PR" is unlikely to be considered as preferable.
>
Preferable by whom? The devs? See my previous point -- there is currently a
clear disconnect, and storing presets in the data items is a proposed way
out of that disconnect.

More importantly, I am still not sure I understand what it is that you
object to. A pull request is created by a user who proposes a certain
change to a preset. If the presets are stored in the data items, the
process is nearly the same -- a user proposes a change to a preset, except
that they do it in a wiki, and a bot translates that proposal into the
github's pull request. Same process, but it becomes easier to
analyze/validate/discuss such changes, and to show them in other wiki pages
for everyone to see.

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:23 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
> 10 Jun 2019, 23:07 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com:
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 8:08 PM Mateusz Konieczny
>
> Also, "edit on Wiki automatically and silently starts equivalent of PR" is
> also not going to work.
>
>
> Why a pull request won't work?
>
>
> Pull requests work and that is exactly scheme used now - by iD, JOSM,
> Vespucci, StreetComplete etc.
>
> "Accept all changes from Wiki" or "Treat changes from wiki as submitter
> PR" is unlikely to be
> considered as preferable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10 Jun 2019, 23:07 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com:

> On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 8:08 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
>
>> Also, "edit on Wiki automatically and silently starts equivalent of PR" is 
>> also not going to work.
>>
>
> Why a pull request won't work?
>  
>
Pull requests work and that is exactly scheme used now - by iD, JOSM, Vespucci, 
StreetComplete etc.

"Accept all changes from Wiki" or "Treat changes from wiki as submitter PR" is 
unlikely to be
 considered as preferable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 8:08 PM Mateusz Konieczny

> Also, "edit on Wiki automatically and silently starts equivalent of PR" is
> also not going to work.
>

Why a pull request won't work?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 8:03 PM mmd  wrote:

> This idea was recently discussed on Slack US #id channel. To quote Bryan
> on this: "We will never use the wikibase for our presets, sorry".


mmd, this was recently discussed in the iD sync-up call, and Bryan was much
more welcoming to the idea  :)

It doesn't have to be automatic, i.e. adding a new data item preset doesn't
automatically have to show up in iD.  Instead, a bot could create a pull
request for the repo, and let others review it.  Or we could have some
system of accepting presets, and changing their status to "accepted" to be
used.

The key here is that the community will have a much more direct way to
create, edit, review, and accept presets.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[François Lacombe]

Le lun. 10 juin 2019 à 18:54, Yuri Astrakhan  a
écrit :

> Thank you François!  The bot is very cautious - it will not touch anything
> that users have edited
>

That's ok for this Yuri, thanks

Le lun. 10 juin 2019 à 19:03, mmd  a écrit :

> This idea was recently discussed on Slack US #id channel. To quote Bryan
> on this: "We will never use the wikibase for our presets, sorry".
>
> See: https://osmus.slack.com/archives/CBK3JLUJU/p1556725015059000

Consistent with what he answers me about validaton rules on iD
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6206#issuecomment-487230605

Caution would be understandable regarding an upcoming feature in
production, but "never" is too strong to me.

Wait and see.

François
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10 Jun 2019, 18:46 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com:

> community would have a direct influence on what presets should be. 
>
There were some complaints about iD (and many of them 100% right), but
"edit on Wiki instantly influences preset/validator" of editor is 
unhealthy overkill in other direction.

It may work for some things like descriptions where Wiki would be linked anyway,
but for anything more it is not going to happen (vandalism potential for start).

Also, "edit on Wiki automatically and silently starts equivalent of PR" is also 
not
going to work.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[mmd]

Am 10.06.19 um 18:46 schrieb Yuri Astrakhan:
> and we could store other info like validation rules and even solve the
> "presets" conflict with this technology -- by storing the presets in the
> data items - community would have a direct influence on what presets
> should be. (TBD)


This idea was recently discussed on Slack US #id channel. To quote Bryan
on this: "We will never use the wikibase for our presets, sorry".

See: https://osmus.slack.com/archives/CBK3JLUJU/p1556725015059000

-- 






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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Thank you François!  The bot is very cautious - it will not touch anything
that users have edited, e.g. if you edit description in French, it will
never update French, but it will update English if the English page would
change. Same with status property -- if anyone changes it, status property
becomes a taboo for the bot. The bot would never touch other wiki pages
either -- too tricky to track their changes.

--Yuri

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 7:49 PM François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Hi Yuri
>
> First of all, Data Items are great add to OSM wiki and as said this
> already brought real benefits.
> Count on my support to go further with them.
>
> Le lun. 10 juin 2019 à 18:38, Yuri Astrakhan  a
> écrit :
>
>> (please fix them in the wiki pages in the corresponding languages, the
>> bot will automatically update the data items)
>>
>
> What if we update data items directly?
> Will the modification be overwritten by outdated information of wikipages
> or will wikipages be updated according to edit dates?
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[François Lacombe]

Hi Yuri

First of all, Data Items are great add to OSM wiki and as said this already
brought real benefits.
Count on my support to go further with them.

Le lun. 10 juin 2019 à 18:38, Yuri Astrakhan  a
écrit :

> (please fix them in the wiki pages in the corresponding languages, the bot
> will automatically update the data items)
>

What if we update data items directly?
Will the modification be overwritten by outdated information of wikipages
or will wikipages be updated according to edit dates?

All the best

François
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Another big advantage is that various tools can use this information
directly from the wiki, without any 3rd party sites - i.e. iD editor gets
new localized descriptions and images the moment they are updated in the
wiki - and we could store other info like validation rules and even solve
the "presets" conflict with this technology -- by storing the presets in
the data items - community would have a direct influence on what presets
should be. (TBD)

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 7:40 PM Andrew Hain 
wrote:

> Some more advantages:
>
> Data item descriptions can be added for tag values that have no need for
> long-form documentation separate from the key.
>
> Descriptions can be added in extra languages before anyone has the time to
> write full documentation in that language; with support from Taginfo this
> means that Map features tables can be generated automatically in all
> languages and not just English.
>
> --
> Andrew
> --
> *From:* Joseph Eisenberg 
> *Sent:* 10 June 2019 13:30
> *To:* Tobias Knerr
> *Cc:* talk@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for
> wiki pages?
>
> > A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
> information does not need to be manually copied to each translation.
>
> But right now, instead of just checking the English page and the
> translated page (eg Bahasa Indonesia), I have to check the English
> page, the wikibase data item, and the Bahasa Indonesia page to make
> sure they all match.
>
> > The current situation with content duplicated between
> data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
> some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems.
>
> So for there to be any benefit, we would have to get rid of the
> existing templates and switch to only using the wikibase data items,
> correct?
>
> I think we need to discuss if this is desired, before any more time is
> spent on adding all of those data items.
>
> -Joseph
>
> On 6/10/19, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> > On 09.06.19 13:59, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> >> Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
> >> in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
> >> don't quite understand how it works.
> >
> > The way it works is that every tag has a "data item". This is the one
> > for natural=isthmus, for example:
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q19327
> >
> > Of course, you're not expected to find this numeric URL yourself. You
> > can get there from the wiki page for that tag by clicking on a "pencil"
> > icon next to the description in the infobox, or by using an
> > "OpenStreetMap Wiki data item" link that appears in the left-hand menu
> > on every page that has a data item associated with it.
> >
> > The idea behind data items is actually quite similar to how templates on
> > the wiki work: There is a number of possible properties that you can
> > fill in with information. The properties which are currently available
> > are mostly identical to the ones used by the templates: Whether the tag
> > can be used on nodes/ways/..., links to related/required/implied tags,
> > an image, and descriptions in various languages.
> >
> > If some information is omitted from a wiki page, the infobox will pull
> > it in from the tag's data item. Otherwise, the information written
> > directly on the page will take precedence.
> >
> > A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
> > information does not need to be manually copied to each translation. And
> > while software like Taginfo has been able to extract information from
> > the wiki for a long time, the hope is that this kind of extraction will
> > eventually become easier thanks to data items.
> >
> > I do not believe there has been a community decision to stop adding
> > information directly on wiki pages. So the other wiki contributor's edit
> > was probably premature.
> >
> > Of course, though, the current situation with content duplicated between
> > data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
> > some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems
> > (updating data consumers, plus working on usability and documentation).
> >
> > Tobias
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Andrew Hain]

Some more advantages:

Data item descriptions can be added for tag values that have no need for 
long-form documentation separate from the key.

Descriptions can be added in extra languages before anyone has the time to 
write full documentation in that language; with support from Taginfo this means 
that Map features tables can be generated automatically in all languages and 
not just English.

--
Andrew

From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 10 June 2019 13:30
To: Tobias Knerr
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki 
pages?

> A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
information does not need to be manually copied to each translation.

But right now, instead of just checking the English page and the
translated page (eg Bahasa Indonesia), I have to check the English
page, the wikibase data item, and the Bahasa Indonesia page to make
sure they all match.

> The current situation with content duplicated between
data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems.

So for there to be any benefit, we would have to get rid of the
existing templates and switch to only using the wikibase data items,
correct?

I think we need to discuss if this is desired, before any more time is
spent on adding all of those data items.

-Joseph

On 6/10/19, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> On 09.06.19 13:59, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
>> in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
>> don't quite understand how it works.
>
> The way it works is that every tag has a "data item". This is the one
> for natural=isthmus, for example:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q19327
>
> Of course, you're not expected to find this numeric URL yourself. You
> can get there from the wiki page for that tag by clicking on a "pencil"
> icon next to the description in the infobox, or by using an
> "OpenStreetMap Wiki data item" link that appears in the left-hand menu
> on every page that has a data item associated with it.
>
> The idea behind data items is actually quite similar to how templates on
> the wiki work: There is a number of possible properties that you can
> fill in with information. The properties which are currently available
> are mostly identical to the ones used by the templates: Whether the tag
> can be used on nodes/ways/..., links to related/required/implied tags,
> an image, and descriptions in various languages.
>
> If some information is omitted from a wiki page, the infobox will pull
> it in from the tag's data item. Otherwise, the information written
> directly on the page will take precedence.
>
> A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
> information does not need to be manually copied to each translation. And
> while software like Taginfo has been able to extract information from
> the wiki for a long time, the hope is that this kind of extraction will
> eventually become easier thanks to data items.
>
> I do not believe there has been a community decision to stop adding
> information directly on wiki pages. So the other wiki contributor's edit
> was probably premature.
>
> Of course, though, the current situation with content duplicated between
> data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
> some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems
> (updating data consumers, plus working on usability and documentation).
>
> Tobias
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Yuri Astrakhan]

>
> I think we need to discuss if this is desired, before any more time is
> spent on adding all of those data items.
>

Joseph, I agree that ideally we should not have duplicates anywhere.
Currently we have thousands of mismatches between languages - e.g. in
statuses and what key/tag should be used on which element.  For example,
see status mismatches --  http://tinyurl.com/y62j5m5e -- (please fix them
in the wiki pages in the corresponding languages, the bot will
automatically update the data items)

Data items are currently auto-generated by a bot from the key/tag pages and
from taginfo statistics.  Data items already allowed tens of thousands of
descriptions to be added for languages that otherwise had nothing - so they
already brought a lot of positive documentation - mostly because they are
far easier to edit than to create a full-blown wiki page and understanding
wiki markup and template parameters.

There has been a number of discussions on the wiki itself (most
wiki-structure specific discussions have traditionally happened there, e.g.
how to organize templates, etc), but I am happy to discuss it in other
venues as well.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
information does not need to be manually copied to each translation.

But right now, instead of just checking the English page and the
translated page (eg Bahasa Indonesia), I have to check the English
page, the wikibase data item, and the Bahasa Indonesia page to make
sure they all match.

> The current situation with content duplicated between
data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems.

So for there to be any benefit, we would have to get rid of the
existing templates and switch to only using the wikibase data items,
correct?

I think we need to discuss if this is desired, before any more time is
spent on adding all of those data items.

-Joseph

On 6/10/19, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> On 09.06.19 13:59, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
>> in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
>> don't quite understand how it works.
>
> The way it works is that every tag has a "data item". This is the one
> for natural=isthmus, for example:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q19327
>
> Of course, you're not expected to find this numeric URL yourself. You
> can get there from the wiki page for that tag by clicking on a "pencil"
> icon next to the description in the infobox, or by using an
> "OpenStreetMap Wiki data item" link that appears in the left-hand menu
> on every page that has a data item associated with it.
>
> The idea behind data items is actually quite similar to how templates on
> the wiki work: There is a number of possible properties that you can
> fill in with information. The properties which are currently available
> are mostly identical to the ones used by the templates: Whether the tag
> can be used on nodes/ways/..., links to related/required/implied tags,
> an image, and descriptions in various languages.
>
> If some information is omitted from a wiki page, the infobox will pull
> it in from the tag's data item. Otherwise, the information written
> directly on the page will take precedence.
>
> A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
> information does not need to be manually copied to each translation. And
> while software like Taginfo has been able to extract information from
> the wiki for a long time, the hope is that this kind of extraction will
> eventually become easier thanks to data items.
>
> I do not believe there has been a community decision to stop adding
> information directly on wiki pages. So the other wiki contributor's edit
> was probably premature.
>
> Of course, though, the current situation with content duplicated between
> data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
> some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems
> (updating data consumers, plus working on usability and documentation).
>
> Tobias
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 09.06.19 13:59, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
> in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
> don't quite understand how it works.

The way it works is that every tag has a "data item". This is the one
for natural=isthmus, for example:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q19327

Of course, you're not expected to find this numeric URL yourself. You
can get there from the wiki page for that tag by clicking on a "pencil"
icon next to the description in the infobox, or by using an
"OpenStreetMap Wiki data item" link that appears in the left-hand menu
on every page that has a data item associated with it.

The idea behind data items is actually quite similar to how templates on
the wiki work: There is a number of possible properties that you can
fill in with information. The properties which are currently available
are mostly identical to the ones used by the templates: Whether the tag
can be used on nodes/ways/..., links to related/required/implied tags,
an image, and descriptions in various languages.

If some information is omitted from a wiki page, the infobox will pull
it in from the tag's data item. Otherwise, the information written
directly on the page will take precedence.

A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
information does not need to be manually copied to each translation. And
while software like Taginfo has been able to extract information from
the wiki for a long time, the hope is that this kind of extraction will
eventually become easier thanks to data items.

I do not believe there has been a community decision to stop adding
information directly on wiki pages. So the other wiki contributor's edit
was probably premature.

Of course, though, the current situation with content duplicated between
data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems
(updating data consumers, plus working on usability and documentation).

Tobias

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

That helps, but it's hard to see, and invisible when images are turned off.

(I usually browse the wiki without images to save on data, and I also
think that blind users should be able to understand and navigate
without needing to interpret images.

Here's the history for the wikibase data item "Q7676" which apparently
means "natural=peninsula":

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q7676=history

There are 37 changes in the last 6 months, half of them bot edits by "Yurikbot"

How is this easier to use, edit or understand than the regular wiki
pages? It's certainly not easier to find.

On 6/9/19, Andrew Hain  wrote:
> Every tag documentation page has a grey pencil icon next to the description
> to edit the data message. Maybe it could be made clearer.
>
> --
> Andrew
> 
> From: Joseph Eisenberg 
> Sent: 09 June 2019 12:59
> To: osm
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki
> pages?
>
> While checking out the Map Features osm wiki pages, I noticed a few
> items that were missing descriptions or had very short,
> self-referrential ones (eg. "A peninsula" for natural=peninsula and
> "An isthmus" for natural=isthmus), even though the wiki page actually
> has a good description, which was approved as part of the proposal
> process for each feature.
>
> When I edited the pages to add the description to the usual template
> (the ValueDescription template), I was surprised to see that this box
> was missing. I ended up reverting the last edits which removed the
> box, so that I could edit it.
>
> I was then informed that there is now a "data item" in a tool called
> "wikibase" where this information can be edited. Another osm wiki user
> thought this is now the correct place to store information like a tag
> description.
>
> Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
> in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
> don't quite understand how it works.
>
> Description of wikibase data items (rather confusing to me):
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

9 Jun 2019, 13:59 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:

> When I edited the pages to add the description to the usual template
> (the ValueDescription template), I was surprised to see that this box
> was missing. I ended up reverting the last edits which removed the
> box, so that I could edit it.
>
It was an isolated edit and reverting it was correct. Introducing 
"wikibase data items" was discussed a bit, but there was never an agreement 
to start deleting content from article pages.

I strongly oppose such deletions and requiring people to use
data items that are harder to edit. At least it was an isolated human-made edit,
not large scale destruction.

> Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
> don't quite understand how it works.
>
This is a recent development, it appeared in September 2018[1].

I found https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Wikibase 

linked from
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Data_items=1652163 


Note that it was initially described as
"We are only trying to improve this wiki's Key:* and Tag:* pages", it was not 
supposed
to involve damaging of OSM Wiki pages, or at least this plan was well hidden
(if I would knew that  it is planned I would strongly oppose from start).

Description of wikibase data items (rather confusing to me):

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items 
> 
>
It works like Wikidata. Some believe that it is a significant benefit, other 
dislike it for the same reason.

[1] "Enabled in a read-only mode" on September 18.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Andrew Hain]

Every tag documentation page has a grey pencil icon next to the description to 
edit the data message. Maybe it could be made clearer.

--
Andrew

From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 09 June 2019 12:59
To: osm
Subject: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

While checking out the Map Features osm wiki pages, I noticed a few
items that were missing descriptions or had very short,
self-referrential ones (eg. "A peninsula" for natural=peninsula and
"An isthmus" for natural=isthmus), even though the wiki page actually
has a good description, which was approved as part of the proposal
process for each feature.

When I edited the pages to add the description to the usual template
(the ValueDescription template), I was surprised to see that this box
was missing. I ended up reverting the last edits which removed the
box, so that I could edit it.

I was then informed that there is now a "data item" in a tool called
"wikibase" where this information can be edited. Another osm wiki user
thought this is now the correct place to store information like a tag
description.

Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
don't quite understand how it works.

Description of wikibase data items (rather confusing to me):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items

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[OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

While checking out the Map Features osm wiki pages, I noticed a few
items that were missing descriptions or had very short,
self-referrential ones (eg. "A peninsula" for natural=peninsula and
"An isthmus" for natural=isthmus), even though the wiki page actually
has a good description, which was approved as part of the proposal
process for each feature.

When I edited the pages to add the description to the usual template
(the ValueDescription template), I was surprised to see that this box
was missing. I ended up reverting the last edits which removed the
box, so that I could edit it.

I was then informed that there is now a "data item" in a tool called
"wikibase" where this information can be edited. Another osm wiki user
thought this is now the correct place to store information like a tag
description.

Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
don't quite understand how it works.

Description of wikibase data items (rather confusing to me):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items

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