Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
That is exactly why i stopped uploading tracks a long time ago. If any query rises about the authenticity of any track I have drawn, the history will show where any justification can be found. Then, I will or will not hand over any of my GPS tracks. It's not because ANYONE including Steve decided this at the beginning of a project that it should not be liable to discussion about it's use. Gert Gremmen - Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest) -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Lambert Carsten Verzonden: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:51 PM Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks On Thursday 25 September 2008 18:53:00 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: It is not intended to protect OSM against infringement at all. It's there as a statement about the ethos of the project that you don't upload data from copyright sources. Of course we all know it's possible to circumvent, but that goes against the ethos of the project and hence the community wouldn't stand for abuse if it was spotted. That is why we want all the tracks that we can get so anybody trying to 'infect' the data with copyrighted material doesn't have a hope in hell since there is so much more from non copyright sources. As far as I am aware the requirement for a timestamp was established by the project founder SteveC when he first set up the system all those years ago, it's engrained within the very basis of the project and thus unlikely to ever change. I really don't get this. Although I am not a programmer I find it very hard to believe that the 'importer' cannot be changed to accept tracks without time stamp data. O.k. so the decision was made at a very early stage, so that is why there is no real record of it. But if it is a bad decision (with hindsight of course and under different circumstances: geotagged photos, Yahoo imagery etc)), that is to say it has negative effects, it seems only logical to change it. As has been pointed out, if you don't want to expose the timestamp simply don't make your trace public. What I personally want is to upload clean data because it helps me as a mapper when there is as little noise as possible in the gps data. So therefore I don't want to burdon others with my noisy data. I want to upload my tracks because when I enter data I like every bit of confirmation that my data is good, that I can get. Obviously if I like others to upload their tracks I need to upload mine, that's the basis of why a project like this works! If I could cut out the garbage out of my tracks as easily as I can in Josm but without destroying the timestamp info the issue that triggered this 'quest' would be gone (or rather would not even have come up). However the other issues I hadn't thought about before remain. If people are not uploading their tracks because of privacy issues it is a loss to everyone. The question with any 'rule' always remains: is it useful, is it adding or taking away? Anyone wanting to know about the map data will be looking at the history of the data item for the contributor details rather than who made perhaps one of the many GPX tracks that lie underneath. Absolutely, common sense approach is best! Lambert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 02:35:49PM +0200, Lambert Carsten wrote: Maybe someone can point me to some editor with which I can easily clean up the tracks without clearing out the time stamps (personally I don't have a problem uploading that info). I use viking (http://sourceforge.net/projects/viking/) you can use it to split tracks, get nice graphics about altitude and speed, and also to check against osm maps, (Add new map layer, select osm maps, alpha 150 or so, and autodownload maps) and also you can submit the gpx to osm from the same program. The only thing i miss is to merge several gpx layers -- Celso González (PerroVerd) http://mitago.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Lambert Carsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I tried to upload a couple of gpx tracks that I had cleaned up with Josm. They were refused with a message that seems to suggest thy are missing time stamps (possibly missing altitude). Why does openstreetmap want timestamps? There is no reason for this. I want to clean up my tracks to prevent uploading garbage from when I forgot to switch off my logger. I know in time (in theory at least) the garbage will be lost as noise behind good data. But where I collect data (mostly Amsterdam) there is already so much garbage and bad tracks in many area's rendering those tracks useless. In other area's there are no tracks at all and and these are exactly the area's I am trying to locate and track. Also I hope by adding more good tracks the balance will tip in favor of the good data. What is the reasoning here? There is also a privacy advantage not uploading the unnecessary time stamps. I am sure there are many that hesitate to upload tracks for privacy reasons. If the problem is with the missing altitude: some of my original trackpoints had an altitude of of over 6km in the Netherlands!! I can solve my problem by not uploading my tracks anymore and just use them personally to enter osm data. At least with my own tracks I know which bits are good, which are so so and which bits are bad. But I thought the whole point was to share all this data. Maybe someone can point me to some editor with which I can easily clean up the tracks without clearing out the time stamps (personally I don't have a problem uploading that info). Lambert Carsten Check out Viking (viking.sf.net). I've used it to clean up my tracks (for the privacy reasons you mention). It supports OSM tiles for background map display, and allows you to upload your tracks to OSM from within the program, too. Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
Lambert Carsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is also a privacy advantage not uploading the unnecessary time stamps. I am sure there are many that hesitate to upload tracks for privacy reasons. A while ago I wrote a small shell script which did the following things: - It removes trackpoints in a number of defined polygons (around your house, around your workplace, ...) - It changes all timestamps by a random time interval (one interval for all timestamps, of course). - It removes cmt, desc and name tags from trackpoints. - It removes waypoints and routes from the file. - It simplifies the route by discarding trackpoints which are in a straight line. The script is probably not particularly well written and it depends xsltproc and gpsbabel. An output directory and the polygonal areas to exclude are defined directly in the file. I put the script on my wiki page in case someone is interested in it: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:Xoff Maybe someone can point me to some editor with which I can easily clean up the tracks without clearing out the time stamps (personally I don't have a problem uploading that info). I am using viking on Linux (http://sourceforge.net/projects/viking/). It seems to be in an relatively early development stage and I find the user interface a bit peculiar, but it allows me editing gpx tracks and waypoints while preserving the timestamps. It also supports underlaying the gps data with maps/sat images. Cheers, Christoph ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
Lambert Carsten wrote: This decision needs more thought. Although I personally don't have a privacy issue here there are clearly those that do Just don't set your track as public - then the timestamps won't be exposed. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
On Thursday 25 September 2008 17:21:59 Richard Fairhurst wrote: Lambert Carsten wrote: This decision needs more thought. Although I personally don't have a privacy issue here there are clearly those that do Just don't set your track as public - then the timestamps won't be exposed. I am not looking to just solve my own personal 'problem'. What concerns me is that someone has made a decision that doesn't seem to be motivated and it is unclear (to me at least) who made it. I think that is a problem for an organization like openstreetmap. The issue itself is not insignificant for more than one reason. My concern is about good data and this 'rule' makes it a lot harder for me to upload clean data. Others might be concerned about privacy and change the data. And others again might not make their data available to save themselves the hassle of changing the data. Lambert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Lambert Carsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 25 September 2008 17:21:59 Richard Fairhurst wrote: Lambert Carsten wrote: This decision needs more thought. Although I personally don't have a privacy issue here there are clearly those that do Just don't set your track as public - then the timestamps won't be exposed. I am not looking to just solve my own personal 'problem'. What concerns me is that someone has made a decision that doesn't seem to be motivated and it is unclear (to me at least) who made it. I think that is a problem for an organization like openstreetmap. The issue itself is not insignificant for more than one reason. My concern is about good data and this 'rule' makes it a lot harder for me to upload clean data. Others might be concerned about privacy and change the data. And others again might not make their data available to save themselves the hassle of changing the data. Lambert The GPX tracks are intended to show the basis for the ways and other data that is in the database, so I think one motivation for timestamps hearkens back to a desire to show your work to defend the source of OSM data against potential future claims of copyright infringement. In other words, with timestamps, it's more plausible that it was collected with an actual GPS receiver, instead of mocked up into GPX from some tainted source (with a license not compatible with OSM). Obviously timestamps could be synthesized (and I think there are even scripts that will do it for you if you want to upload your timestamp-less GPX tracks to OSM), but anyway, that's one reason I seem to recall why timestamps are required. Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Karl Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The GPX tracks are intended to show the basis for the ways and other data that is in the database, so I think one motivation for timestamps hearkens back to a desire to show your work to defend the source of OSM data against potential future claims of copyright infringement. In other words, with timestamps, it's more plausible that it was collected with an actual GPS receiver, instead of mocked up into GPX from some tainted source (with a license not compatible with OSM). Obviously timestamps could be synthesized (and I think there are even scripts that will do it for you if you want to upload your timestamp-less GPX tracks to OSM), but anyway, that's one reason I seem to recall why timestamps are required. Yes, that's the reason. Whoever wrote that stuff on the wiki page was making it up (shock horror). It's a simple hurdle to discourage using one of the many trace-over-X-maps websites and then uploading the end result into OSM. The stuff about using timestamps to work out speeds is inaccurate. Lambert, it's really worth your while not to believe everything that you read on the wiki, the quality of stuff there is often particularly poor. Nor even believe everything on the mailing lists, this warning (perhaps?) included! Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
Lambert Carsten wrote: Sent: 25 September 2008 5:36 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks On Thursday 25 September 2008 18:01:36 Karl wrote: The GPX tracks are intended to show the basis for the ways and other data that is in the database, so I think one motivation for timestamps hearkens back to a desire to show your work to defend the source of OSM data against potential future claims of copyright infringement. In other words, with timestamps, it's more plausible that it was collected with an actual GPS receiver, instead of mocked up into GPX from some tainted source (with a license not compatible with OSM). Obviously timestamps could be synthesized (and I think there are even scripts that will do it for you if you want to upload your timestamp-less GPX tracks to OSM), but anyway, that's one reason I seem to recall why timestamps are required. I understand that reasoning but it is not enough to impose the timestamps requirement in my view. Anybody who is going to go through the trouble to create fake gps tracks most likely has enough motivation to create fake time stamps, enter copyrighted material directly. The rule doesn't protect opentstreetmap in any way. It is not intended to protect OSM against infringement at all. It's there as a statement about the ethos of the project that you don't upload data from copyright sources. Of course we all know it's possible to circumvent, but that goes against the ethos of the project and hence the community wouldn't stand for abuse if it was spotted. As far as I am aware the requirement for a timestamp was established by the project founder SteveC when he first set up the system all those years ago, it's engrained within the very basis of the project and thus unlikely to ever change. As has been pointed out, if you don't want to expose the timestamp simply don't make your trace public. Anyone wanting to know about the map data will be looking at the history of the data item for the contributor details rather than who made perhaps one of the many GPX tracks that lie underneath. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] clean gpx tracks
On Thursday 25 September 2008 18:53:00 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: It is not intended to protect OSM against infringement at all. It's there as a statement about the ethos of the project that you don't upload data from copyright sources. Of course we all know it's possible to circumvent, but that goes against the ethos of the project and hence the community wouldn't stand for abuse if it was spotted. That is why we want all the tracks that we can get so anybody trying to 'infect' the data with copyrighted material doesn't have a hope in hell since there is so much more from non copyright sources. As far as I am aware the requirement for a timestamp was established by the project founder SteveC when he first set up the system all those years ago, it's engrained within the very basis of the project and thus unlikely to ever change. I really don't get this. Although I am not a programmer I find it very hard to believe that the 'importer' cannot be changed to accept tracks without time stamp data. O.k. so the decision was made at a very early stage, so that is why there is no real record of it. But if it is a bad decision (with hindsight of course and under different circumstances: geotagged photos, Yahoo imagery etc)), that is to say it has negative effects, it seems only logical to change it. As has been pointed out, if you don't want to expose the timestamp simply don't make your trace public. What I personally want is to upload clean data because it helps me as a mapper when there is as little noise as possible in the gps data. So therefore I don't want to burdon others with my noisy data. I want to upload my tracks because when I enter data I like every bit of confirmation that my data is good, that I can get. Obviously if I like others to upload their tracks I need to upload mine, that's the basis of why a project like this works! If I could cut out the garbage out of my tracks as easily as I can in Josm but without destroying the timestamp info the issue that triggered this 'quest' would be gone (or rather would not even have come up). However the other issues I hadn't thought about before remain. If people are not uploading their tracks because of privacy issues it is a loss to everyone. The question with any 'rule' always remains: is it useful, is it adding or taking away? Anyone wanting to know about the map data will be looking at the history of the data item for the contributor details rather than who made perhaps one of the many GPX tracks that lie underneath. Absolutely, common sense approach is best! Lambert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
