Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
Frederik Ramm wrote: > In the long(er) run we'll have to think about multiple "data layers" > anyway. For example, someone might want to map the ancient city of > Rome, or someone might want to map aviation routes and airspace, and > the like. I have exactly such a project in mind. > So we will, sooner or later, have infrastructure to deal with these > things. This *might* be separate servers running the OSM API, ..and this is exactly how I intend to do it, once I have time. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
Hi, >- select two or three small islands somewhere on the planet, but really in >the middle of 'nowhere', means no humans, no constructions, absolutely >nothing. I share the concerns voiced by the others. BUT: In the long(er) run we'll have to think about multiple "data layers" anyway. For example, someone might want to map the ancient city of Rome, or someone might want to map aviation routes and airspace, and the like. While such objects could just be dropped into today's database with appropriate tags (people have suggested temporal "validity" tags that could be used to say that a certain building only existed from 500 to 200 B.C.), that would make editing and rendering very difficult because you'd always deal with loads of objects you don't care about. So we will, sooner or later, have infrastructure to deal with these things. This *might* be separate servers running the OSM API, but we might also find a way to integrate this with our current data base. Whichever way we go, if we start having multiple thematic or temporal "layers" or "groups" or "clusters" or whatever, then we can sure also have one additional layer that we call "testing" or "reference" or whatever, which serves the purpose you are after. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00.09' E008°23.33' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 5:16 PM, Pieren Pieren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > wow, I'm surprised about the hostility of some answers. I mean, remember me > the name of this ML... > So, lets continue the "talk" (and not the fight): > > > > if you are already speeding 15 mph over the speedlimit in > > your car, you would think it's a good idea to go even faster ? > no, but to drive a car, you need a license. And to get the license, you're > educated by someone explaining you what you are allowed to do and what not. > Because osm doesn't require a license (not yet), the amount of wrong data > will increase with the amount of contributors. > I don't think anyone is disagreeing that more examples and better tagging help would be good. Just that that's not a good reason or excuse to add rubbish to the map, and that you should find another way, a number of which have been suggested. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
wow, I'm surprised about the hostility of some answers. I mean, remember me the name of this ML... So, lets continue the "talk" (and not the fight): if you are already speeding 15 mph over the speedlimit in > your car, you would think it's a good idea to go even faster ? no, but to drive a car, you need a license. And to get the license, you're educated by someone explaining you what you are allowed to do and what not. Because osm doesn't require a license (not yet), the amount of wrong data will increase with the amount of contributors. One reason I had this idea is because many threads in this ML concern the mean of representing the real world into the db. (I know the story about the difference between the data and the rendering, but don't forget that many contributors will just enter data if they can see the results on the maps.) So, threads get the conclusion that the tagging is wrong or improper or incomplete and others say that the renderers are incorrect. Then, ideally, the wiki would be updated, reflecting the consensus found on the thread. But we all know what is the reality with the wiki, even if some people bravely tries to keep it up-to-date as much as possible. So, this suggestion was just an "attempt" to find a shared area between the osm db and the renderers without the difficulties of the wiki maintenance. I agree that making this in a separate database is probably better but I thought easier to make it where all contributors are already registered and real rendering softwares are used. Inserting a link into the wiki pointing to an existing area considered as a good pratice (means: following the consensus) is also a good idea. My suggestion was just to summarize everything in one clearly identified area. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Pieren Pieren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You can create a standalone .osm file with all this in it if you/we > > need a test file. That's a much better idea than polluting the > > database with junk! > > > ok, forget my comment for developers who have a local environment anyway... > but I'm only thinking about the 99% of the OSM contributors who will never > install a renderer but would like to see the best practices described in the > wiki (when they are) in action. > And the database is already polluted by junk, exactly because of lake of > guidelines. I have a habit of "correcting" data that is wrong/junk if I find it, as do many other people. > When I say 'island', it could be in the middle of a desert as well and > tagued as 'test area' or whatever It really doesn't matter where it is, and if you change the tagging, that actually causes a problem with the whole base idea, because the data is no longer representative. For instance, I'd be very tempted to strip it in osm2pgsql. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
Pieren Pieren skrev: >> You can create a standalone .osm file with all this in it if you/we >> need a test file. That's a much better idea than polluting the >> database with junk! > > > ok, forget my comment for developers who have a local environment anyway... > but I'm only thinking about the 99% of the OSM contributors who will never > install a renderer but would like to see the best practices described in the > wiki (when they are) in action. > And the database is already polluted by junk, exactly because of lake of > guidelines. > > With a separate environment, the problem is the maintenance. Here we are > sure that it would use the latest renderers as they are used by osm. > > When I say 'island', it could be in the middle of a desert as well and > tagued as 'test area' or whatever > So you think that just because there are "some junk" in the database currently, it's a good idea to add some certified junk to the database ? Let me guess, if you are already speeding 15 mph over the speedlimit in your car, you would think it's a good idea to go even faster ? The idea of having a test rendering of an area, for users to see is valid, but no need to pollute the DB with it. Make an OSM XML compliant file, render it with Osmarender and Mapnik, and put the examples up as static bitmaps on the Wiki. Something similar is already done on the mapfeatures page, for the various tags. Having larger bitmaps on the wiki where several items are rendered as if they were a map, is easily achieved, without polluting the DB with made up data. An even better approach would be to set up a page containing links to the map, of different areas which does contain the various features, and a subsequent description of the features in question. No need to enter fake data into the db, and it will show the rendering of the tags on live actual valid data. Dutch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
> You can create a standalone .osm file with all this in it if you/we > need a test file. That's a much better idea than polluting the > database with junk! ok, forget my comment for developers who have a local environment anyway... but I'm only thinking about the 99% of the OSM contributors who will never install a renderer but would like to see the best practices described in the wiki (when they are) in action. And the database is already polluted by junk, exactly because of lake of guidelines. With a separate environment, the problem is the maintenance. Here we are sure that it would use the latest renderers as they are used by osm. When I say 'island', it could be in the middle of a desert as well and tagued as 'test area' or whatever ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
i was thinking about this also (my idea was a separate database), also usable as a kind of legend tile maybe we can use the northpole as testarea ;) or even better the 0/0 lat/lon easy to locate and in the ocean 2008/3/4, Pieren Pieren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > What do you think about this idea : > - select two or three small islands somewhere on the planet, but really in > the middle of 'nowhere', means no humans, no constructions, absolutely > nothing. > - call these islands 'mapnik', 'osmarender', etc... > - add them in a dedicated wikipage with appropriate links to point them on > the browser > - then put as much as you want existing nodes, ways, relations and tag > them as specified as the 'recommended by the map features' and supported by > this renderer > > e.g. intersections, with bridges, tunnels or directly connected; > multipolygons relations; buildings; places; admin_levels; large rivers; > canal; etc... > > This would : > - give an idea for beginners how the tags are rendered at the different > zoom levels directly on the maps > - show what is currently supported by the current rendering softwares. > - avoid that many people perform the same kind of tests locally > - be used as a test area for renderers developers > > Pieren > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Pieren Pieren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What do you think about this idea : > - select two or three small islands somewhere on the planet, but really in > the middle of 'nowhere', means no humans, no constructions, absolutely > nothing. > - call these islands 'mapnik', 'osmarender', etc... > - add them in a dedicated wikipage with appropriate links to point them on > the browser > - then put as much as you want existing nodes, ways, relations and tag them > as specified as the 'recommended by the map features' and supported by this > renderer > > e.g. intersections, with bridges, tunnels or directly connected; > multipolygons relations; buildings; places; admin_levels; large rivers; > canal; etc... > > This would : > - give an idea for beginners how the tags are rendered at the different zoom > levels directly on the maps > - show what is currently supported by the current rendering softwares. > - avoid that many people perform the same kind of tests locally > - be used as a test area for renderers developers > I think that is a nasty hack, and generally a bad idea. It's just pollution, and things like motorways would show up at quite high zoom wherever you put them. If the island is empty then it should be empty. A public test database may be a good idea.. you could turn off authentication etc and set up your renderer "islands" on that. Or more simply just provide test .osm files for people to download and look at (with very big warnings not to try and upload them). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Pieren Pieren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What do you think about this idea : > - select two or three small islands somewhere on the planet, but really in > the middle of 'nowhere', means no humans, no constructions, absolutely > nothing. > - call these islands 'mapnik', 'osmarender', etc... > - add them in a dedicated wikipage with appropriate links to point them on > the browser > - then put as much as you want existing nodes, ways, relations and tag them > as specified as the 'recommended by the map features' and supported by this > renderer > > e.g. intersections, with bridges, tunnels or directly connected; > multipolygons relations; buildings; places; admin_levels; large rivers; > canal; etc... > > This would : > - give an idea for beginners how the tags are rendered at the different zoom > levels directly on the maps > - show what is currently supported by the current rendering softwares. > - avoid that many people perform the same kind of tests locally > - be used as a test area for renderers developers You can create a standalone .osm file with all this in it if you/we need a test file. That's a much better idea than polluting the database with junk! We've also discussed before that they best way to see what advanced stuff needs mapping is to go and map some, rather than thinking up examples. Real life is generally more complicated than anyone will think of themselves. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
On Tuesday 04 March 2008 14:14:15 Pieren Pieren wrote: > What do you think about this idea : > - select two or three small islands somewhere on the planet, but really in > the middle of 'nowhere', means no humans, no constructions, absolutely > nothing. > - call these islands 'mapnik', 'osmarender', etc... > - add them in a dedicated wikipage with appropriate links to point them on > the browser > - then put as much as you want existing nodes, ways, relations and tag them > as specified as the 'recommended by the map features' and supported by this > renderer I would prefer not to add wrong information to OSM. rather provide an additional samples.osm file with associated mapnik server. > > e.g. intersections, with bridges, tunnels or directly connected; > multipolygons relations; buildings; places; admin_levels; large rivers; > canal; etc... I would rather prefer to have example-locations for these tags. Currently we can see how the tags are going to be rendered, but we do not have links to see them in action. I would really like to see some good (some easy, some difficult) examples for each tag. Maybe competent mappers could post some URLs here, and after approval add them to the map-features site. > > This would : > - give an idea for beginners how the tags are rendered at the different > zoom levels directly on the maps this should link to live examples (as described before). > - show what is currently supported by the current rendering softwares. > - avoid that many people perform the same kind of tests locally > - be used as a test area for renderers developers these should not happen on live-osm data, but on a separate server and more importantly separate data. // florian > > Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] create a rendering test zone somewhere on the planet ?
What do you think about this idea : - select two or three small islands somewhere on the planet, but really in the middle of 'nowhere', means no humans, no constructions, absolutely nothing. - call these islands 'mapnik', 'osmarender', etc... - add them in a dedicated wikipage with appropriate links to point them on the browser - then put as much as you want existing nodes, ways, relations and tag them as specified as the 'recommended by the map features' and supported by this renderer e.g. intersections, with bridges, tunnels or directly connected; multipolygons relations; buildings; places; admin_levels; large rivers; canal; etc... This would : - give an idea for beginners how the tags are rendered at the different zoom levels directly on the maps - show what is currently supported by the current rendering softwares. - avoid that many people perform the same kind of tests locally - be used as a test area for renderers developers Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
