Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Stephen Gower < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 08:48:18PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: > > > > if we are going to have an 'attribution' page on the wiki[1], with the > > fine print regarding sources of various chunks of data, would a link > > to it be possible, on the main map page? titled say 'data attribution' > > or 'data sources'? > > Have you got a definition of "main map page"? If the cycle map > became more popular than the main site (generally, or in NZ) would > the agreement you're after force its admins to add links? Or on > the other side, if you specify "on www.openstreetmap.org" what if > the project renames? > Actually *every* published map that uses OSM data, including OSM's own maps must satisfy the attribution requirement. That's what the BY clause in the CC-BY-SA means. Anyone publishing OSM data must provide attribution: "You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor" is what Creative Commons actually says. The attribution page on the wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Attribution would seem like a simple and convenient way of achieving this. 80n > > s > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 08:48:18PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: > > if we are going to have an 'attribution' page on the wiki[1], with the > fine print regarding sources of various chunks of data, would a link > to it be possible, on the main map page? titled say 'data attribution' > or 'data sources'? Have you got a definition of "main map page"? If the cycle map became more popular than the main site (generally, or in NZ) would the agreement you're after force its admins to add links? Or on the other side, if you specify "on www.openstreetmap.org" what if the project renames? s ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
2008/4/3 Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I may be missing something, but why would we need to introduce a read- > only attribution tag if we already have it? It's the source tag of the > first version of an object, in > > http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5///history fantastic. like it now, one more question: if we are going to have an 'attribution' page on the wiki[1], with the fine print regarding sources of various chunks of data, would a link to it be possible, on the main map page? titled say 'data attribution' or 'data sources'? [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Attribution ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
Robert Vollmert wrote: > I may be missing something, but why would we need to introduce a read- > only attribution tag if we already have it? It's the source tag of the > first version of an object, in > > http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5///history +1 Sebastian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
> I may be missing something, but why would we need to introduce a read- > only attribution tag if we already have it? It's the source tag of the > first version of an object, in > > http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5///history > > Cheers > Robert > > + 1 Cheers, Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
Robert Vollmert wrote: > I may be missing something, but why would we need to introduce a read- > only attribution tag if we already have it? It's the source tag of the > first version of an object, in > > http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5///history cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Apr 2, 2008, at 13:08, Cartinus wrote: > On Wednesday 02 April 2008 12:02:49 Robin Paulson wrote: >> >> true, but as i suggested in a previous mail, i'm not sure why someone >> would need to do this. if a user is importing another dataset which >> needs attribution, they would likely be someone responsible/trusted, >> and given temporary rights to add to the 'attributions' tag. >> >> who else would need to edit it? i can't see a situation where anyone >> would feel a need to delete and then re-create? what would they gain, >> in real terms? > > You probably can't see the need because you are currently not > editing in an > area that is peppered with nodes that contain a "source=AND" tag. > Why would a > node that I moved a bit and changed into a "highway=bus_stop name=*" > still be > attributed to wherever it was imported from first? Why would a lake > where I > changed the east bank according to Yahoo aerial images or my own GPS > tracks > still be attributed to wherever it was imported from first? Etc., > etc., etc. I may be missing something, but why would we need to introduce a read- only attribution tag if we already have it? It's the source tag of the first version of an object, in http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5///history Cheers Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 02/04/2008, Cartinus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > there's no reason (in theory) the person carrying out the import of > > > the second, or third, or whatever, 'approved' source, couldn't > > > temporarily be given write-status for that tag. it was only intended > > > to be read-only for the majority of users, who editing/adding things > > > one component at a time > > > > > > This would need people in charge of granting rights to other people. Which > I > > don't think is part of the spirit of OSM at the moment. (That's part of > the > > well, it happens already. there are parts of osm that i don't have > access to, and if i asked steve or anyone else with the keys, they > would likely say no unless i had a good reason. ok, it's the > infrastructure not the data, but the point still stands > There's a large difference between system admin and granting/removing editing rights to particular OSM users. Currently all OSM users are created equal, including the sys admin's own OSM user accounts. As soon as you start adding technical restrictions to specific users then you have to start dealing with a whole load of extra politics concerned with who gets to assign those rights and under what circumstances, which we currently get to completely sidestep by not having any. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Wednesday 02 April 2008 12:02:49 Robin Paulson wrote: > On 02/04/2008, Cartinus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > there's no reason (in theory) the person carrying out the import of > > > the second, or third, or whatever, 'approved' source, couldn't > > > temporarily be given write-status for that tag. it was only intended > > > to be read-only for the majority of users, who editing/adding things > > > one component at a time > > > > This would need people in charge of granting rights to other people. > > Which I don't think is part of the spirit of OSM at the moment. (That's > > part of the > > well, it happens already. there are parts of osm that i don't have > access to, and if i asked steve or anyone else with the keys, they > would likely say no unless i had a good reason. ok, it's the > infrastructure not the data, but the point still stands I think we have to agree to disagree on this point, because IMHO there is a big difference between the data and the infrastructure. > > unwanted part.) Plus it still wouldn't prevent me from using the "delete > > and recreate" method if I wasn't granted those rights. (That's the futile > > part.) > > true, but as i suggested in a previous mail, i'm not sure why someone > would need to do this. if a user is importing another dataset which > needs attribution, they would likely be someone responsible/trusted, > and given temporary rights to add to the 'attributions' tag. > > who else would need to edit it? i can't see a situation where anyone > would feel a need to delete and then re-create? what would they gain, > in real terms? You probably can't see the need because you are currently not editing in an area that is peppered with nodes that contain a "source=AND" tag. Why would a node that I moved a bit and changed into a "highway=bus_stop name=*" still be attributed to wherever it was imported from first? Why would a lake where I changed the east bank according to Yahoo aerial images or my own GPS tracks still be attributed to wherever it was imported from first? Etc., etc., etc. Maybe the linz data is vastly superior to the AND data, but if it is not, then it is going to require a lot of manual correcting. Not to mention that even for nodes/ways that are correct, people probably want to add tags about things not present in the linz data to many of them. Since a tag on an object applies to the whole object, in no time the "attribution" tag no longer reflects the "truth". Tags that don't reflect the "truth" generally are deleted as soon as anybody notices them. The real gain is that if I go with a fine toothcomb over (a part of) a town to make it "feature complete", then it shouldn't say in the database that three quarter of the _objects_ are sourced from wherever, if only about one quarter of the _data_ actually comes from that source. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On 02/04/2008, Cartinus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > there's no reason (in theory) the person carrying out the import of > > the second, or third, or whatever, 'approved' source, couldn't > > temporarily be given write-status for that tag. it was only intended > > to be read-only for the majority of users, who editing/adding things > > one component at a time > > > This would need people in charge of granting rights to other people. Which I > don't think is part of the spirit of OSM at the moment. (That's part of the well, it happens already. there are parts of osm that i don't have access to, and if i asked steve or anyone else with the keys, they would likely say no unless i had a good reason. ok, it's the infrastructure not the data, but the point still stands > unwanted part.) Plus it still wouldn't prevent me from using the "delete and > recreate" method if I wasn't granted those rights. (That's the futile part.) true, but as i suggested in a previous mail, i'm not sure why someone would need to do this. if a user is importing another dataset which needs attribution, they would likely be someone responsible/trusted, and given temporary rights to add to the 'attributions' tag. who else would need to edit it? i can't see a situation where anyone would feel a need to delete and then re-create? what would they gain, in real terms? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Wednesday 02 April 2008 00:03:37 Robin Paulson wrote: > "I'm talking about combining the best parts of the data from two "approved" > sources and reflecting both sources in the source tag. This is not > possible, without deleting and recreating the original object, if the > source tag becomes read-only." > > there's no reason (in theory) the person carrying out the import of > the second, or third, or whatever, 'approved' source, couldn't > temporarily be given write-status for that tag. it was only intended > to be read-only for the majority of users, who editing/adding things > one component at a time This would need people in charge of granting rights to other people. Which I don't think is part of the spirit of OSM at the moment. (That's part of the unwanted part.) Plus it still wouldn't prevent me from using the "delete and recreate" method if I wasn't granted those rights. (That's the futile part.) -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On 02/04/2008, Chris Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This extra set of steps for the Linz data seems a step too far for me. I'm > especially concerned about the the fact that they insist on the phrase 'Crown > Copyright reserved' - they are surely maintaining NZ Crown Copyright over the > data. This is exactly what I thought OSM was seeking to avoid. > not exactly - this info from the linz website sheds some light: http://www.linz.govt.nz/home/disclaimer/index.html "Crown Copyright Land Information New Zealand owns the Crown copyright in the material available for viewing or downloading from this website as provided in the Copyright Act 1994. The material may be used, copied and re-distributed free of charge in any format or media. Where the material is redistributed to others the source and copyright status must be acknowledged." i.e. we and subsequent users are given explicit permission to re-distribute and edit it as much as we like, so long as we say who created it. which sounds exactly like cc-by-sa under a different name: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ "You are free: * to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work * to Remix — to adapt the work Under the following conditions: * Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work). * Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one. * For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to this web page." they assert copyright, but are agreeing not to wield it in any way that is bad to us the entire question i am asking here revolves around "Where the material is redistributed to others the source and copyright status must be acknowledged." and us finding a method for doing that, which we and linz are happy with > cheers, Chris > > - Original Message > > From: Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: talk@openstreetmap.org; Licensing and other legal discussions. <[EMAIL > PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 April, 2008 9:46:39 PM > > Subject: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary > > > > many thanks to all that participated in the recent discussions on > > attributing data provided by land information new zealand. i've read > > through all that was discussed and written down a brief summary of > > what osm will do and won't do, on the wiki: > > > > i don't recall if there was ever a definite 'yes' or 'no' on item 4 of > > what osm will do. please could someone clarify? > > > > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/LINZ#summary_of_attribution_methods_-_what_osm_will_and_will_not_do > > > > also copied below: > > > > summary of attribution methods - what osm will and will not do > > *osm will carry out: > > > > 1. creating a wiki page with details of contributors, and > > information on how to view the contributor of a specific piece of data > > (through planet.osm, osmxapi, potlatch, etc.) > > 2. adding a permanent link from the main map, to the attributions page > > 3. creating an 'attribution' tag, which can be edited by any > > member of the community. this tag will be applied only to items > > requiring attribution > > 4. ??? creating an 'attribution' tag, which can only be edited by > > select members of the community. this tag will be applied only to > > items requiring attribution ??? > > > > > > *osm will not carry out > > > > 1. adding attribution text to maps, beside each item requiring > attribution > > 2. specific attribution labels which appear on-screen whenever an > > item requiring attribution is being shown (such as used by google > > maps) > > 3. re-directions to attribution text, when data requiring > > attribution is viewed for the first time > > > > > > i think this reflects what was said in the discussions, please correct > > me if i am wrong. > > > > when the list of what osm will do has been finalised, it will be > > passed on to linz for their approval or otherwise > > > > ___ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > __ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Inbox http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On 02/04/2008, Cartinus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 01 April 2008 22:46:39 Robin Paulson wrote: > > *osm will carry out: > > > 4. ??? creating an 'attribution' tag, which can only be edited by > > select members of the community. this tag will be applied only to > > items requiring attribution ??? > > > This one is definitely in the wrong one of the two categories. In the > discussion I tried to explain why this unwanted and even futile to have. But > most importantly: It is currently not possible in OSM and I didn't see any > developer volunteering to implement it. do you mean this bit? "I'm talking about combining the best parts of the data from two "approved" sources and reflecting both sources in the source tag. This is not possible, without deleting and recreating the original object, if the source tag becomes read-only." there's no reason (in theory) the person carrying out the import of the second, or third, or whatever, 'approved' source, couldn't temporarily be given write-status for that tag. it was only intended to be read-only for the majority of users, who editing/adding things one component at a time will osm entertain this idea, and if so, are any developers willing to work on it ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
On Tuesday 01 April 2008 22:46:39 Robin Paulson wrote: > *osm will carry out: > 4. ??? creating an 'attribution' tag, which can only be edited by > select members of the community. this tag will be applied only to > items requiring attribution ??? This one is definitely in the wrong one of the two categories. In the discussion I tried to explain why this unwanted and even futile to have. But most importantly: It is currently not possible in OSM and I didn't see any developer volunteering to implement it. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] linz dataset for nz - attribution methods summary
many thanks to all that participated in the recent discussions on attributing data provided by land information new zealand. i've read through all that was discussed and written down a brief summary of what osm will do and won't do, on the wiki: i don't recall if there was ever a definite 'yes' or 'no' on item 4 of what osm will do. please could someone clarify? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/LINZ#summary_of_attribution_methods_-_what_osm_will_and_will_not_do also copied below: summary of attribution methods - what osm will and will not do *osm will carry out: 1. creating a wiki page with details of contributors, and information on how to view the contributor of a specific piece of data (through planet.osm, osmxapi, potlatch, etc.) 2. adding a permanent link from the main map, to the attributions page 3. creating an 'attribution' tag, which can be edited by any member of the community. this tag will be applied only to items requiring attribution 4. ??? creating an 'attribution' tag, which can only be edited by select members of the community. this tag will be applied only to items requiring attribution ??? *osm will not carry out 1. adding attribution text to maps, beside each item requiring attribution 2. specific attribution labels which appear on-screen whenever an item requiring attribution is being shown (such as used by google maps) 3. re-directions to attribution text, when data requiring attribution is viewed for the first time i think this reflects what was said in the discussions, please correct me if i am wrong. when the list of what osm will do has been finalised, it will be passed on to linz for their approval or otherwise ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
