Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:34 AM, David ``Smith'' vidthe...@gmail.com wrote:
I'll concede that there's a me too aspect involved with trying to
make OSM work for geocoding like the big names do. But that doesn't
mean there aren't legitimate motivations. OSM's street map is
arguably better than the big names in many places, including ones that
started with a TIGER import. I'd love to tell people to use OSM
rather than Google, but most casual users will dismiss it if they
enter their home address and nothing comes up.
It'd be much easier than importing TIGER addresses into OSM if you
just used the TIGER data itself to get a latitude/longitude pair and
then fed that lat/lon into OSM.
In fact, it's basically already been written:
http://search.cpan.org/~sderle/Geo-Coder-US/US.pm
use Geo::Coder::US;
Geo::Coder::US-set_db( geocoder.db );
my ($ora) = Geo::Coder::US-geocode( 1005 Gravenstein Hwy N, 95472 );
print http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=$ora-{lat}lon=$ora-{long}zoom=16;
Just add form processing.
Yes, this wouldn't be editable, but does the TIGER data really need
editing anyway? TIGER can be a fallback, after a more accurate search
of the OSM data fails.
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, Richard Mann wrote: Perhaps these mega-imports should be background data, equivalent to Yahoo and NPE, for people to trace off if they've got a reasonable belief in their current correctness, but not to be used raw? Then while people are tracing their neighbourhood, they might put in some of the details that aren't in the import. But we'll never get the detail unless we have the people. This concept has been applied to some Queensland, Australia data. We can make it appear as a background in JOSM or Potlatch and then work with the main map. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
Perhaps these mega-imports should be background data, equivalent to Yahoo and NPE, for people to trace off if they've got a reasonable belief in their current correctness, but not to be used raw? Then while people are tracing their neighbourhood, they might put in some of the details that aren't in the import. But we'll never get the detail unless we have the people. Even in a very-thoroughly mapped place like Oxford, I keep finding details that aren't correct, because too much has been surveyed by a few enthusiasts, not properly crowd-sourced. For POI databases, like Naptan, perhaps the POIs can be imported, to reduce the tedium of data-entry, but I am tending to agree that they shouldn't be given full status until they are locally confirmed (perhaps we should have a generic verified=no tag). Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:42 AM, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: Perhaps these mega-imports should be background data, equivalent to Yahoo and NPE, for people to trace off if they've got a reasonable belief in their current correctness, but not to be used raw? I think the TIGER road import needed to be done as an actual import. The reason being that all the roads are interconnected, and if I'm working on one small section of the road network I want to be able to connect it to the rest of the country. There certainly could be some improvements, especially if we could do it all over again, but overall I disagree with the more harm than good thesis. In any case, I don't think it would have worked for the TIGER road import, but an import procedure like that for the GPX traces would be a possibility for some imported data. Put the data in its own separate tables and let people import it manually by sending the server a bounding box. Potlatch would then import it as those red locked ways and people could check/fix the data manually before unlocking the way. Other editors could do something similar. The great part is, the editor support for this is mostly already written. It'd require some effort to create and implement the API to store and retrieve the data, but it seems doable. The TIGER address data might be a good candidate for this type of treatment. Anthony ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: In any case, I don't think it would have worked for the TIGER road import, but an import procedure like that for the GPX traces would be a possibility for some imported data. Put the data in its own separate tables and let people import it manually by sending the server a bounding box. Potlatch would then import it as those red locked ways and people could check/fix the data manually before unlocking the way. Other editors could do something similar. The great part is, the editor support for this is mostly already written. It'd require some effort to create and implement the API to store and retrieve the data, but it seems doable. I think it doesn't necessarily need an API. If the editors can read .osm files over http, then we just split the imports into chunks and stick them on the dev server. Simplest possible thing that could work, and all that. In saying that, making map calls to (a?) server full of reference data could then be implemented as a better solution, but that involves more development effort. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: In any case, I don't think it would have worked for the TIGER road import, but an import procedure like that for the GPX traces would be a possibility for some imported data. Put the data in its own separate tables and let people import it manually by sending the server a bounding box. Potlatch would then import it as those red locked ways and people could check/fix the data manually before unlocking the way. Other editors could do something similar. The great part is, the editor support for this is mostly already written. It'd require some effort to create and implement the API to store and retrieve the data, but it seems doable. I think it doesn't necessarily need an API. If the editors can read .osm files over http, then we just split the imports into chunks and stick them on the dev server. Simplest possible thing that could work, and all that. How big are those chunks going to be? Seems like that would encourage a far too automated conversion process. If the imported ways aren't moved into position, they're useless - any geocoder/reverse-geocoder that wants the original TIGER data can just parse TIGER. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: any geocoder/reverse-geocoder that wants the original TIGER data can just parse TIGER. Please note that this is an argument specific to TIGER *address* data. It doesn't hold for *roadway* data, because the roadway is all interconnected. The address ways are all unconnected. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. It did more harm than good. As someone who has worked with TIGER data repeatedly, on a far larger scale than most people, I will say: It did more harm than good. As someone who spent 8 weeks working to clean up enough roads to make one, solitary, viable connected road across the US, I will say: It did more harm than good. As someone who has actually tried to fix the disastrous double imports, which have remained untouched for over 2 years, I will say: it did more harm than good. And as someone with a detailed knowledge of how OSM works on many different continents and situations, I will say: it did more harm than good. And of anyone in the discussion, let nobody accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about. I have spent 10 times as much time on TIGER fixup - both in projects and by helping other people - than anything else in openstreetmap over the last 12 months. But here's the worrying point, no matter how much time I spend trying to explain the problems with imports, I'm just a squeaky wheel to the pro-import guys. The tiger import has done more than anything else to ensure that OSM in the US will be years and years behind what it could otherwise be. The way to get back up to speed, build communities and build the best map of the world is to move on from the failed approach of imports, and to open your eyes to what is done day in day out in Europe - without making excuses that the US is somehow different. But that won't happen. Despite all evidence to the contrary, many people will continue with the idea that if only there were *enough* imports, OSM in the US will stop being lame and start being awesome. It won't. Every import just makes it take longer and longer and longer to build the community that is needed. It'll get there in the end, but every national-scale import sets back the end result by years. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
Andy Allan writes: On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. It did more harm than good. No, it didn't. I didn't start mapping until TIGER was imported. Why? Because I knew that a lot of the work had already been done. Why should I waste my time, as you folks in the UK have **been forced** to waste your time reinventing an existing map? We have a public domain map which we could start with. Don't try to cast your impediment as an advantage. It wasn't, and our advantage (sensible government policy) isn't an impediment. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Andy Allan writes: On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. It did more harm than good. No, it didn't. I didn't start mapping until TIGER was imported. Why? Because I knew that a lot of the work had already been done. Why should I waste my time, as you folks in the UK have **been forced** to waste your time reinventing an existing map? Sorry, which map have we reinvented? I'd love to know which map has an accurate pedestrian routing network that is collected as such and not a derived interpretation of other base maps. Or maybe you think OSM is just a road network with some POIs? Or are you again thinking that the work we've done in OSM is actually inferior to the work available from the Ordnance Survey? We have a public domain map which we could start with. If all you're aiming for is a slightly better version of TIGER, then it was worth starting with TIGER and that's pretty much all you'll get. Oh, look, that's what happened. Don't try to cast your impediment as an advantage. It wasn't, and our advantage (sensible government policy) isn't an impediment. So let me get this straight, your public domain road shapefiles have been an advantage? And therefore OSM is better in the US than in Germany? Geez, we're all sure hurting from a lack of imports over here. I don't think you've really understood just *how* far behind you are (precisely because of this advantage, imo) and how much slower things are progressing on your side of the Atlantic. So please, turn away from imports and work on getting mappers in charge, especially out pounding the streets. The outcome will be much, much better in the end, and that end will come much, much quicker. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to know which map has an accurate pedestrian routing network that is collected as such and not a derived interpretation of other base maps. C'mon, this is the United States. A blank map is an accurate pedestrian routing network. ;) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On 16 Nov 2009, at 7:14 , Anthony wrote: On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to know which map has an accurate pedestrian routing network that is collected as such and not a derived interpretation of other base maps. C'mon, this is the United States. A blank map is an accurate pedestrian routing network. ;) you are talking about a different US. I am constantly forced to stop at Violators will be prosecuted, signs. ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On 16 Nov 2009, at 7:05 , Andy Allan wrote: On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Andy Allan writes: On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. It did more harm than good. No, it didn't. I didn't start mapping until TIGER was imported. Why? Because I knew that a lot of the work had already been done. Why should I waste my time, as you folks in the UK have **been forced** to waste your time reinventing an existing map? Sorry, which map have we reinvented? I'd love to know which map has an accurate pedestrian routing network that is collected as such and not a derived interpretation of other base maps. Or maybe you think OSM is just a road network with some POIs? Or are you again thinking that the work we've done in OSM is actually inferior to the work available from the Ordnance Survey? We have a public domain map which we could start with. If all you're aiming for is a slightly better version of TIGER, then it was worth starting with TIGER and that's pretty much all you'll get. Oh, look, that's what happened. Absolutely, me to approach. And why have all the hassle with community, vandalism … every GIS expert can build a DB with Tiger data. If we don't see osm as a social and community project with a dynamic entirely different from traditional GIS i't a wast of time. compare US with Europe and you will cry, compare it with some places in Africa, India Asia … where people can barely afford GPS and Computers it's a shame how bad the US map is. Don't try to cast your impediment as an advantage. It wasn't, and our advantage (sensible government policy) isn't an impediment. So let me get this straight, your public domain road shapefiles have been an advantage? And therefore OSM is better in the US than in Germany? Geez, we're all sure hurting from a lack of imports over here. I don't think you've really understood just *how* far behind you are (precisely because of this advantage, imo) and how much slower things are progressing on your side of the Atlantic. So please, turn away from imports and work on getting mappers in charge, especially out pounding the streets. The outcome will be much, much better in the end, and that end will come much, much quicker. I wouldn't go that far. As long as imports are done by active mappers in their local area and they take responsibility and fix all problems they create with the import. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 15:05 +, Andy Allan wrote: So please, turn away from imports and work on getting mappers in charge, especially out pounding the streets. The outcome will be much, much better in the end, and that end will come much, much quicker. I think TIGER was a success if only because of all the Europeans we tricked into fixing our roads for us. :) -- Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
Andy Allan writes: On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: should I waste my time, as you folks in the UK have **been forced** to waste your time reinventing an existing map? Sorry, which map have we reinvented? If OSM is better than OS, then you've reinvented it -- but that work was only necessary because your country doesn't put its map into the public domain. If it had, then you would have started with it, and would now be arguing with the governments of X, Y, and Z that they should put their map data into the public domain. We have a public domain map which we could start with. If all you're aiming for is a slightly better version of TIGER, then it was worth starting with TIGER and that's pretty much all you'll get. Oh, look, that's what happened. Oh, look, we have 99% of all roads in the US in OSM. Can you say that about any other country besides the exceptional Germany and the (dare I say it) imported Netherlands? Don't try to cast your impediment as an advantage. It wasn't, and our advantage (sensible government policy) isn't an impediment. So let me get this straight, your public domain road shapefiles have been an advantage? And therefore OSM is better in the US than in Germany? Andy, what you said does not follow logically. impediment and advantage refer to an amount of work, not quality. It was easier to get to where we are now, than it was for Germany to get to an equivalent state (which was probably three years ago). Germany has a three year head start. Naturally that's reflected in the quality of OSM: much better in Germany than the US. Geez, we're all sure hurting from a lack of imports over here. I don't think you've really understood just *how* far behind you are (precisely because of this advantage, imo) and how much slower things are progressing on your side of the Atlantic. I don't think you understand how far we've come with so few people and so little effort. So please, turn away from imports and work on getting mappers in charge, especially out pounding the streets. The outcome will be much, much better in the end, and that end will come much, much quicker. What's the rush? -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Monday 16 Nov 2009 5:46:49 pm Andy Allan wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. It did more harm than good. same thing happened for the import of AND data in Mumbai India (although the rest of India is ok), so I for one can understand what you are saying -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Tuesday 17 November 2009 02:03:22 Russ Nelson wrote: We have a public domain map which we could start with. If all you're aiming for is a slightly better version of TIGER, then it was worth starting with TIGER and that's pretty much all you'll get. Oh, look, that's what happened. Oh, look, we have 99% of all roads in the US in OSM. Can you say that about any other country besides the exceptional Germany and the (dare I say it) imported Netherlands? Well in the Netherlands the AND import surely killed off most mapping activity. When the import happened there was no usable aerial imaging available. So fixing all those crooked urban streets that were really straight was a problem. Even now only about a quarter of the country has usable aerial imaging available. Fixing the non-road data from the import (forests and water) which was really low quality data is completely impossible without aerial imaging. The most read comment after the import was: But now the map is finished. This resulted in two years of mostly stagnation. (Except for some isolated spots.) It's now 2 years after the import and cycleways and pedestrian ways are still completely missing in most of the country. I've been busy with fixing AND data around were I live and did some mapping of empty pieces of Belgium along along the Dutch-Belgian border. Mapping in a blank area was for sure easier and more productive than fixing the AND mess. I can say with certainty that if the import hadn't happend I would have mapped more of the city I live in, than I have corrected now. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Qgis.png for an example of something I whipped up for my neighborhood in a few hours http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/changeset/1825/download for a sample of what the osm looks like. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
Hi, Dave Hansen wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. Well then you obviously haven't read the two latest entries in Matt Amos' blog here, http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/ (Imports and the Community, parts I and II), with part II ending thus: In conclusion; ... the theoretical model still predicts that imports damage the growth of the editor community. ... Of course Matt's findings are not backed up by a lot of evidence as he himself says, so they might be wrong. And even if they were right, it would be valid (if slightly un-OSM-like) to say to hell with the editor community, I want data now. As long as imports are done in a clean way technically, I don't have a strong opinion in the matter; I strongly believe in everyone taking responsibility for their patch, so if you guys on the other side of the Atlantic decide that you want to import the lot then that's what you should do. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sun, 2009-11-15 at 23:30 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: Dave Hansen wrote: There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. Well then you obviously haven't read the two latest entries in Matt Amos' blog here, http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/ (Imports and the Community, parts I and II), with part II ending thus: In conclusion; ... the theoretical model still predicts that imports damage the growth of the editor community. ... Of course Matt's findings are not backed up by a lot of evidence as he himself says, so they might be wrong. And even if they were right, it would be valid (if slightly un-OSM-like) to say to hell with the editor community, I want data now. That's a really cool set of data, very well thought out. It's also interesting to see that the difference in completeness is less than ~5% no matter how much you import to begin. So, you could read it as, imports don't damage the end result of the map... much :) I have a feeling it's all in the noise anyway. My only nit would be that it misses a very important metric: how prolific were the mappers? I know, before my local area got imported, I did a few streets here and there, but only as much as I could survey and note by hand. Now, I can just take GPS traces and make sure that things line up as cab other people from across the globe. So, instead of unique users per time period, it might be interesting to see unique users*nr_edits per time period. -- Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Dan Homerick danhomer...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by, That's just not happening. Clarify? I should add that my comment about being highly in favor of the import is riding on the assumption that we'll have something like 'tiger:reviewed = no' (with editor support) to mark unreviewed areas. Ideally, an indication that an address is unreviewed would be passed along by any services that use So, who did volunteer to write that editor-support? What editor is it? In case of josm, do you have the ticket-number for this enhancement/plugin? Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 11/13/09 10:43 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: O TIGER is an incredibly huge data set. It comes from what may be the most diverse set of primary sources of anything in the world short of OSM itself. It shouldn't be trusted explicitly (no single map should). Do you have some more constructive information about places where you've found it to be inaccurate? i have found it to be not far off in NY state, but i was pretty horrified at how bad it was between Sheperdstown WV and Harpers Ferry WV when i was in that area in August. clearly there is a lot of variation. richard Yes, exactly. On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: Do you have some more constructive information about places where you've found it to be inaccurate? For pretty much all of Florida there is parcel-by-parcel address information available from the county. If you want to import address information, that would be much more accurate than TIGER. I'm sorry if you don't find this constructive. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
For pretty much all of Florida there is parcel-by-parcel address information available from the county. If you want to import address information, that would be much more accurate than TIGER. For that case, clearly the county information is vastly preferred over TIGER. I'm curious about the history of how most of this information is freely available in FL - my county GIS has a public mapping application web page, but they sell data only on DVDs for $$$ with full restrictions on data usage. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 1:47 AM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: the problem is Tiger contains tons of dead data. No, the problem is that TIGER uses privacy-obfuscated potential addresses, while the Karlsruhe Schema is set up for actual addresses. Yes, in some locations the error is small - in particular if the potential address range and the actual address range are similar. In other locations the error is much larger. TIGER is fine if you don't have anything else. But that's not the case where I live. It's fine to fall back on if your actual address search fails. But adding it in a way that encourages people to *update* the potential addresses with actual addresses defeats that possibility. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: For pretty much all of Florida there is parcel-by-parcel address information available from the county. If you want to import address information, that would be much more accurate than TIGER. For that case, clearly the county information is vastly preferred over TIGER. Hence my request: please don't import TIGER addresses using the Karlsruhe Schema in locations where there is better data already available. In particular, please don't import this stuff into Hillsborough County, Florida. Not unless you're going to use a schema which can co-exist with actual addressing. I'm curious about the history of how most of this information is freely available in FL - my county GIS has a public mapping application web page, but they sell data only on DVDs for $$$ with full restrictions on data usage. I believe the state passed a law but I really haven't bothered to investigate. You're not in Florida, right? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
TIGER is fine if you don't have anything else. But that's not the case where I live. It's fine to fall back on if your actual address search fails. But adding it in a way that encourages people to *update* the potential addresses with actual addresses defeats that possibility. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if TIGER potential addresses are added by Karlsruhe Schema, shouldn't people actually update the potential addresses with actual addresses? Mere mortals can do that quickly. They can even reposition over the approximate house line if the houses are visible from a Aerial photo. And us nerds with GPS's, aerial imagery, and editor tools will replace them with house number nodes in the exact position. To address comments made by others - having something present prompts me to update and doesn't remove motivation. I'm the exact opposite of the TIGER kills crowdsourcing point of view; I probably wouldn't have even gotten interested if there were no TIGER roads present. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: TIGER is fine if you don't have anything else. But that's not the case where I live. It's fine to fall back on if your actual address search fails. But adding it in a way that encourages people to *update* the potential addresses with actual addresses defeats that possibility. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if TIGER potential addresses are added by Karlsruhe Schema, shouldn't people actually update the potential addresses with actual addresses? I'd say no. Preferably the potential address information and the actual address information would both be available. They are different pieces of information, useful for different purposes. Mere mortals can do that quickly. They can even reposition over the approximate house line if the houses are visible from a Aerial photo. And us nerds with GPS's, aerial imagery, and editor tools will replace them with house number nodes in the exact position. I don't see the savings. 99% of the work would be in surveying. Adding a new way is trivial, especially using good editor tools. But if you want to do that, in locations where there isn't better information already available, be my guest. Just don't do it where there's already better information available. Especially not in my county. To address comments made by others - having something present prompts me to update and doesn't remove motivation. I'm the exact opposite of the TIGER kills crowdsourcing point of view; I probably wouldn't have even gotten interested if there were no TIGER roads present. I very much agree with that. But TIGER roads are half-decent approximations of what we want in OSM. TIGER addresses aren't, at least not in all areas. If you want to add them in areas where the data is good, and there's no better data available, fine. But please don't add it to Hillsborough County, Florida. And preferably don't add it to any county in Florida without first checking with the county to see if there's better data available - because chances are there are. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image:Qgis.png for an example of something I whipped up for my neighborhood in a few hours (which is about how long it took me to figure out the query select ST_Difference(ST_Boundary(a.the_geom), ST_Boundary(ST_Union(b.the_geom))) as the_geom into quick_test from neighborhood_parcel as a join neighborhood_parcel as b on a.gid!=b.gid where ST_Intersects(a.the_geom, b.the_geom) group by a.the_geom;). I've got address information for every one of those parcels. This is much better than the TIGER data, if you want actual addresses and not potential address ranges. I haven't uploaded it yet, mainly because I want to do it right. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On 13 Nov 2009, at 23:56 , Dan Homerick wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: I'm highly in favor of doing the import, regardless. I think the inaccuracies will be far easier to fix than to put the addressing in from scratch. I've done a lot of mapping in my area, but haven't been willing to start doing addresses, even before I knew that the TIGER import was coming down the line. I would be willing to search out and fix errors though, since all it will take is changing a few nodes. That's just not happening. If bad data is in it's hard to verify it's wrong. If in doubt don't import. Empty map will tell everyone immediately there is work to do. Wrong data is hard to even figure out there is a need to survey. I'm not sure what you mean by, That's just not happening. Clarify? forget the technical aspect for a minute and think about motivation, how a community works and all that. no one is interested to cleanup crap after a bad import. Most people want to work on something challenging interesting and new. tiger import was great from technical point of view but didn't allow to build a community from scratch. no one is motivated to fix this broken data. some cautious people are even afraid to touch tiger data because it has this Tiger is a reference data I don't feel confident to change it label attached. most european countries had no imports and yet have better maps large community … I should add that my comment about being highly in favor of the import is riding on the assumption that we'll have something like 'tiger:reviewed = no' (with editor support) to mark unreviewed areas. Ideally, an indication that an address is unreviewed would be passed along by any services that use them. minute is over, now the technical aspect. osm is open to everyone to add, change, delete everything. there is no technical solution to have a tag like 'tiger:reviewed = no' doing anything useful if mappers don't agree on the usage of it. removing it can mean - I have seen it, it's approximately in place - I have done a survey with GPS - I have verified location on Yahoo is correct - One of the above AND name or any other attribute is correct - Everything is correct and it's as if I had entered the data myself Everyone has different thresholds when to remove such a tag, some may just remove it because it clutters the default josm drawing and it is practically impossible to use josm in US without patching it. And I have not yet started to think about vandalism. OSM will never work like a DB with authoritative characteristics. follow the basic rules. map what's on the ground. as I mentioned earlier even some official county data is badly broken. If we start to accept broken imports as better than survey osm is just a me to thing and completely useless. If anyone is interested in a me to solution it's called Google maps and has much better infrastructure than osm will ever have. they have imported all county data, park data, tiger data and refined with sattelite image tracing and street view data analysis. We can't beat them. But we can make something different with different value. the survey on ground is the strength of a community project. - Dan ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 23:56 -0800, Dan Homerick wrote: i, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: I'm highly in favor of doing the import, regardless. I think the inaccuracies will be far easier to fix than to put the addressing in from scratch. I've done a lot of mapping in my area, but haven't been willing to start doing addresses, even before I knew that the TIGER import was coming down the line. I would be willing to search out and fix errors though, since all it will take is changing a few nodes. That's just not happening. If bad data is in it's hard to verify it's wrong. If in doubt don't import. Empty map will tell everyone immediately there is work to do. Wrong data is hard to even figure out there is a need to survey. I'm not sure what you mean by, That's just not happening. Clarify? I think he means that he'd prefer it not be imported. However, unless Apollinaris was appointed supreme OSM dictator and I missed it, I'm not sure it means any more than Apollinaris stating his opinion. If we can come up with a scheme for getting the addressing imported in a sane fashion and the consensus is that people want it done that way, it'll get imported. There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. -- Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
no one is interested to cleanup crap after a bad import. No one is writing this email. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: some cautious people are even afraid to touch tiger data because it has this Tiger is a reference data I don't feel confident to change it label attached. If you're scared of the tiger tags, just remove them. They're basically pointless anyway. Anyone who wants to know the history of a way can use the history feature. I have to agree with Dave Hansen that the TIGER road import did more good than harm. But there's a lot to be learned from it. And the TIGER address information is not comparable, because it's not even the same concept as the one people want in OSM. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On 14 Nov 2009, at 10:22 , Dave Hansen wrote: On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 23:56 -0800, Dan Homerick wrote: i, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: I'm highly in favor of doing the import, regardless. I think the inaccuracies will be far easier to fix than to put the addressing in from scratch. I've done a lot of mapping in my area, but haven't been willing to start doing addresses, even before I knew that the TIGER import was coming down the line. I would be willing to search out and fix errors though, since all it will take is changing a few nodes. That's just not happening. If bad data is in it's hard to verify it's wrong. If in doubt don't import. Empty map will tell everyone immediately there is work to do. Wrong data is hard to even figure out there is a need to survey. I'm not sure what you mean by, That's just not happening. Clarify? I think he means that he'd prefer it not be imported. not exactly, wherever it's good quality and no better data from county available we should import. However, unless Apollinaris was appointed supreme OSM dictator and I missed it, I'm not sure it means any more than Apollinaris stating his opinion. even SteveC isn't accepted as dictator. how would anyone listen to my dictatorship If we can come up with a scheme for getting the addressing imported in a sane fashion and the consensus is that people want it done that way, it'll get imported. There are still quite a few squeaky wheels that like to grumble about TIGER, but I haven't heard a single person say that it did more harm than good. exactly, I do see a big problem for areas with existing address data. before any upload this has to be respected and tiger addresses skipped unless the mappers agree to remove their work. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Sat, 2009-11-14 at 21:35 -0500, Anthony wrote: Unless you can point me to some documentation as to what the tiger id *means* (*), I'm not going to think about it at all. Sometimes I keep it, sometimes I delete it, sometimes I delete the whole way and create a new one in its place (without any of the tiger tags). And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'd prefer that people preserve the TIGER data whenever possible. It's not a primary concern and don't let it slow down your mapping, but it is a useful data point. Let's say we're doing a future TIGER import. Updated roads will have the same TLID between different TIGER revisions and that gives us a good starting point. It's a third bit of data to augment any matching decisions we make based on location and name. We can get along without it, but it *IS* useful. Way history is fine as a backup, but tracing that through splits and joins is not going to be easy. It's much more straightforward to just get it directly. -- Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 17:14 -0700, SteveC wrote: Can I have SF county, CA please and Arapahoe County, CO...? http://daveh.dev.openstreetmap.org/secret/stevec-345/ -- Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/import/tiger2osm/shape_to_osm-Tiger.py We'll work on making sure that these data look good and I think some people have some plans on how to get these integrated a bit at a time. Thanks to those who worked on the namefinder - it worked GREAT when I tried it today. (THANKS to those who created the new namefinder!) It properly identified my house by Hamlet, City, County, etc without my including any of that information in the house number or street. With that in mind, the script tags everything with: tag k=addr:street v=Big Grove Rd / tag k=addr:state v=MyState / tag k=addr:county v=MyCity, ST / tag k=addr:country v=US / I believe people have been saying that this information is not necessary, and is_in is also not necessary for 99% of cases, so we can save space by not including that for the Karlsruhe Schema. (But I don't know how the namefinder works). You gotta have the addr:street information somewhere. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
You gotta have the addr:street information somewhere. Oops! Yes, that should be the minimum required. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: We'll work on making sure that these data look good and I think some people have some plans on how to get these integrated a bit at a time. And hopefully in some places not at all. In many locations there's way more accurate data than TIGER. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: We'll work on making sure that these data look good and I think some people have some plans on how to get these integrated a bit at a time. And hopefully in some places not at all. In many locations there's way more accurate data than TIGER. For examples of how bad TIGER data is, see http://maps.huge.info/geocoder/ and http://www.usnaviguide.com/reverse.htm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
Anthony writes: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: We'll work on making sure that these data look good and I think some people have some plans on how to get these integrated a bit at a time. And hopefully in some places not at all. In many locations there's way more accurate data than TIGER. For examples of how bad TIGER data is, see http://maps.huge.info/geocoder/ and That URL doesn't work ... as an example of bad TIGER data. I checked four addresses, and every one of them was correct within about 30 feet. Presumably your experience is different. What addresses did you try? Some many locations TIGER data is quite good in location and name. Of course, it has the structural problem of not knowing about bridges, but we can and are fixing that. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, 2009-11-13 at 21:50 -0500, Anthony wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote: We'll work on making sure that these data look good and I think some people have some plans on how to get these integrated a bit at a time. And hopefully in some places not at all. In many locations there's way more accurate data than TIGER. For examples of how bad TIGER data is, see http://maps.huge.info/geocoder/ and http://www.usnaviguide.com/reverse.htm TIGER is an incredibly huge data set. It comes from what may be the most diverse set of primary sources of anything in the world short of OSM itself. It shouldn't be trusted explicitly (no single map should). Do you have some more constructive information about places where you've found it to be inaccurate? -- Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Nov 13, 2009, at 11:11 PM, SteveC wrote: Dave I've looked at the two you sent me and they're both basically fine but for two things. In Denver the houses are all set back a lot further, so some way to say 'on north-south roads, set back X feet' might help a lot. Or, in JOSM just search for all the ways that make up the addressing on one side of the street and move them manually. Many times for each one. In San Francisco, for divided highways the old TIGER data used to bow in to a point every block and we had, I think, automated ways to split those out in to two straight lines. This is reflected with little bows on the address lines at each intersection - see guerrero for example. Otherwise looks good to me! What are your plans? when I say looks good, I mean within the bounds of the underlaying data of course :-) Yours c. Steve On Nov 13, 2009, at 4:57 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: So, just like the original TIGER import, I'm now grossly stealing someone else's code: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/import/tiger2osm/shape_to_osm-Tiger.py and I now have made some .osm files with Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways. I'm not going to post them publicly. I did that for the original TIGER, and some enterprising folks took them and uploaded without mentioning it to anyone and it turned into a big mess with no coordination. If anyone wants to see the data for their county, let me know. I'll send you a copy of what I have. All you have to do is convince me that you'll never upload these initial data under any circumstances. :) We'll work on making sure that these data look good and I think some people have some plans on how to get these integrated a bit at a time. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
TIGER is an incredibly huge data set. It comes from what may be the most diverse set of primary sources of anything in the world short of OSM itself. It shouldn't be trusted explicitly (no single map should). Do you have some more constructive information about places where you've found it to be inaccurate? the problem is Tiger contains tons of dead data. I can send you pictures of roads you cant find without gps anymore. single roads completely misaligned. whole areas shifted. As you write on top it's a compilation from many sources and incredibly precise in other places. I and some others checked PD data from Santa Cruz county and even the official disclaimer tells it's highly inaccurate in rural areas. Still Google has imported it down to parcel data. How can anyone expect better data from Tiger if official county data is off? In some places around Tahoe my navi (Teleatlas data) jumped all time to the next parallel road. Comparing with osm showed why. Same bad data … list is endless. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
I'm highly in favor of doing the import, regardless. I think the inaccuracies will be far easier to fix than to put the addressing in from scratch. I've done a lot of mapping in my area, but haven't been willing to start doing addresses, even before I knew that the TIGER import was coming down the line. I would be willing to search out and fix errors though, since all it will take is changing a few nodes. That's just not happening. If bad data is in it's hard to verify it's wrong. If in doubt don't import. Empty map will tell everyone immediately there is work to do. Wrong data is hard to even figure out there is a need to survey. - Dan ___ Talk-us mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Karlruhe Scheme addressing ways from 2009 TIGER data
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.comwrote: I'm highly in favor of doing the import, regardless. I think the inaccuracies will be far easier to fix than to put the addressing in from scratch. I've done a lot of mapping in my area, but haven't been willing to start doing addresses, even before I knew that the TIGER import was coming down the line. I would be willing to search out and fix errors though, since all it will take is changing a few nodes. That's just not happening. If bad data is in it's hard to verify it's wrong. If in doubt don't import. Empty map will tell everyone immediately there is work to do. Wrong data is hard to even figure out there is a need to survey. I'm not sure what you mean by, That's just not happening. Clarify? I should add that my comment about being highly in favor of the import is riding on the assumption that we'll have something like 'tiger:reviewed = no' (with editor support) to mark unreviewed areas. Ideally, an indication that an address is unreviewed would be passed along by any services that use them. - Dan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
