Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

Google, yes. Google's lawyers, no ;)

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 4:07 AM Simon Poole  wrote:

> Actually I think the more important question is: doesn't google have a
> better method to create a background map than screenshots? :-)
> (particularly noticeable due to the POI pins in the 2nd and third
> illustrations).
> Am 13.04.2019 um 16:47 schrieb François Lacombe:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable
> systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents
> describing them.
>
> Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and
> Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France
> https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=1650796
>
> As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic
> Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other
> submarine systems already exists there.
>
> Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would
> prevent us to take data from them?
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

Of course Google *can* afford a lawyer and bureaucracy does not legally or
physically limit their ability to act, but I think you underestimate the
*practical* limitations. Even the smallest amount of bureaucracy and cost
(which just adds more bureaucracy, because the cost must be approved) makes
it just not worth it for the *individual* who works for Google who would
have to call up the lawyer and find the paperwork and organize the
paperwork and get approvals, when they already have a hundred other more
important tasks to do. Honestly, the bigger the company, the more
bureaucracy.

In the general scenario, setting aside the insignificant case, there's an
argument to be made that three difference "infringements" can take place:
One by the mapper in copying the material into OSM, one by OSM in
"distributing" the material (whether "distributing" is really the right
word is going to depend country by country, but that's the concept), and
one by a user in copying the material from OSM (and then doing whatever
else to it). So the law of the country of all three would apply, just apply
to different activities.
>From a practical standpoint, if there were a significant infringement
situation, and regardless of whether the owner was Google or some other
entity, I would think their main concern would be stop further inclusion of
the material OSM, and possibly further use by a major user of OSM, so the
location of the mapper matters very little (unless the mapper was a
disgruntled employee or some weird situation like that).

-Kathleen

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 9:25 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> > On 15 Apr 2019, at 18:07, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Martin,
> > Yes, Google might already have a subsidiary in a country (since they
> have them in many but certainly not in all countries) but they would still
> have to "go" there in the sense that: 1) I very much doubt the subsidiary
> would already have a plaintiff-side copyright attorney on speed dial, so
> they'd have to get one; 2) they'd have to produce the paperwork that shows
> that subsidiary owns the copyright in question. Given that this was a
> filing with the US FCC, odds are that all the people involved in producing
> the filing are in the US, and therefore the paperwork is in the US and
> would need to be transferred to the subsidiary in order for the subsidiary
> to sue... (Frankly, I don't think it'd be cheaper to that, vs the default
> ownership entity hiring local lawyers and filing suit in its own name, so I
> don't think the existence of the subsidiaries matters.)
> >
>
>
>
> I guess bureaucracy would not limit their ability to act. These reasonings
> may hold up for smaller countries and companies, but Google Ireland Ltd. is
> the Google subsidiary for the whole common European market (or EU, not
> sure), their 2017 revenue was 32 billion Euros, if they need an attorney
> they will find one.
>
> Reason I asked was because you wrote the situation depends on the place
> where the infraction happens (besides the probably insignificant case at
> hand, with a single line drawn), the question which law is applicable is a
> returning one.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

Hi Martin,
Yes, Google might already have a subsidiary in a country (since they have
them in many but certainly not in all countries) but they would still have
to "go" there in the sense that: 1) I very much doubt the subsidiary would
already have a plaintiff-side copyright attorney on speed dial, so they'd
have to get one; 2) they'd have to produce the paperwork that shows that
subsidiary owns the copyright in question. Given that this was a filing
with the US FCC, odds are that all the people involved in producing the
filing are in the US, and therefore the paperwork is in the US and would
need to be transferred to the subsidiary in order for the subsidiary to
sue... (Frankly, I don't think it'd be cheaper to that, vs the default
ownership entity hiring local lawyers and filing suit in its own name, so I
don't think the existence of the subsidiaries matters.)
-Kathleen

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 7:47 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 14. Apr 2019, at 10:48, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
>
> For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the
> "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario
>
>
>
> the information is stored and distributed from the UK, the mapper is more
> likely to come from a different country.
>
>
> but the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue
> over this one line is preposterous to me.
>
>
>
> what I meant is that they are already there.
>
> Cheers, Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2019, at 10:48, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> 
> For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the 
> "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario


the information is stored and distributed from the UK, the mapper is more 
likely to come from a different country. 


> but the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over 
> this one line is preposterous to me.


what I meant is that they are already there.

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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[François Lacombe]

 Hi all

Well, these are great inputs so thank you

I agree that the document were committed by Google to FCC.

Le dim. 14 avr. 2019 à 10:51, Kathleen Lu via talk 
a écrit :

>
> For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the
> "infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario, but
> the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over
> this one line is preposterous to me.
> Let me put it this way: I would be comfortable taking the "risk" myself.
>

Indeed, and furthermore "A cable is coming between A and B" sounds like
public information since Google and third parties published about it.
Drawing a pretty straight line between landing points won't sounds like
copyright violation.

This is not so clear for landing paths between beach to stations, until we
see technicians rolling out the cable, let's try to be there at the right
time

All the best

François
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

For Berne counties, I think it technically depends on where the
"infringement" takes place, whatever that would mean in this scenario, but
the idea that Google would go to another country to spend $$$ to sue over
this one line is preposterous to me.
Let me put it this way: I would be comfortable taking the "risk" myself.


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:03 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 14. Apr 2019, at 09:47, Kathleen Lu via talk 
> wrote:
> >
> > My opinion as a copyright lawyer is that there is nothing copyrightable
> in the single line that consists of the proposed route, under US law.
> > Of course others are free to disagree.
>
>
> are you sure that US law applies when someone takes these maps and adds
> the contained information into OpenStreetMap?
> Is there a general agreement whose law applies, does it depend on where
> the mapper is located while mapping? Does it depend on where you get sued?
> (e.g. Google could sue in the US but also for example in Ireland through
> child companies).
>
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2019, at 09:47, Kathleen Lu via talk  
> wrote:
> 
> My opinion as a copyright lawyer is that there is nothing copyrightable in 
> the single line that consists of the proposed route, under US law. 
> Of course others are free to disagree. 


are you sure that US law applies when someone takes these maps and adds the 
contained information into OpenStreetMap?
Is there a general agreement whose law applies, does it depend on where the 
mapper is located while mapping? Does it depend on where you get sued? (e.g. 
Google could sue in the US but also for example in Ireland through child 
companies).


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

My opinion as a copyright lawyer is that there is nothing copyrightable in
the single line that consists of the proposed route, under US law.
Of course others are free to disagree.

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 9:36 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> de minimis is applicable in cases where copyrighted content is unimportant
> addition to
> work
>
> it certainly does not apply in case where you copy solely that content
>
> For example de minimis apply if you take photo and there is a movie poster
> in the
> background.
>
> It stops to apply once you crop to show solely that copyrighted poster.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:De_minimis has fairly good
> introduction
>
> Compare
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GT2_-_Flickr_-_CarSpotter.jpg
> where de minims appply
> and
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Dark_Knight_movie_poster_-_censored_copyright.jpg
> where it likely no longer applies
>
> --
>
> "data is low quality" is not waiving copyright.
>
> Apr 14, 2019, 7:39 AM by talk@openstreetmap.org:
>
> The linked document was filed by GN's attorneys, submitted to the FCC, not
> authored by the FCC. That said, the level of detail on the map is so small
> that I personally would deem any copying de minimus.
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:30 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>
> François,
> The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <
> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable
> systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents
> describing them.
>
> Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and
> Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France
> https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=1650796
>
> As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic
> Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other
> submarine systems already exists there.
>
> Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would
> prevent us to take data from them?
>
> All the best
>
> François
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Mateusz Konieczny]

de minimis is applicable in cases where copyrighted content is unimportant 
addition to
work

it certainly does not apply in case where you copy solely that content

For example de minimis apply if you take photo and there is a movie poster in 
the
background.

It stops to apply once you crop to show solely that copyrighted poster.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:De_minimis 
 has fairly good 
introduction

Compare
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GT2_-_Flickr_-_CarSpotter.jpg 

where de minims appply
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Dark_Knight_movie_poster_-_censored_copyright.jpg
 

where it likely no longer applies

--

"data is low quality" is not waiving copyright.

Apr 14, 2019, 7:39 AM by talk@openstreetmap.org:

> The linked document was filed by GN's attorneys, submitted to the FCC, not 
> authored by the FCC. That said, the level of detail on the map is so small 
> that I personally would deem any copying de minimus. 
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:30 PM Clifford Snow <> cliff...@snowandsnow.us 
> > > wrote:
>
>>
>> François,
>> The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated. 
>>
>> Best,
>> Clifford
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <>> 
>> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com >> > wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable 
>>> systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents 
>>> describing them.
>>>
>>> Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and 
>>> Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France
>>> https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=1650796 
>>> 
>>>
>>> As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic 
>>> Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other 
>>> submarine systems already exists there.
>>>
>>> Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would prevent 
>>> us to take data from them?
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> François
>>> ___
>>>  talk mailing list
>>>  >>> talk@openstreetmap.org 
>>>  >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>>> 
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> @osm_washington
>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us 
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>> ___
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>>  >> talk@openstreetmap.org 
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> 
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

The linked document was filed by GN's attorneys, submitted to the FCC, not
authored by the FCC. That said, the level of detail on the map is so small
that I personally would deem any copying de minimus.

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:30 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> François,
> The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe <
> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable
>> systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents
>> describing them.
>>
>> Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and
>> Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France
>> https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=1650796
>>
>> As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic
>> Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other
>> submarine systems already exists there.
>>
>> Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would
>> prevent us to take data from them?
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] FCC public documents license and submarine cables mapping

[Clifford Snow]

François,
The US FCC should be public domain unless otherwise indicated.

Best,
Clifford

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:48 AM François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Google is currently rolling out several submarine telecommunication cable
> systems and Amercian FCC actually publishes application documents
> describing them.
>
> Such one regards the Dunant system between Virginia Beach and
> Saint-Hilaire-de-Riez in France
> https://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=1650796
>
> As the application document shows maps of landings and global Atlantic
> Ocean route, I'm technically able to add it to OSM as several other
> submarine systems already exists there.
>
> Are you aware of license issues regarding FCC documents which would
> prevent us to take data from them?
>
> All the best
>
> François
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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