Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
> I'm not sure if there is anywhere that would be: (5) 3 options male, > female & unisex (unisex=yes male=yes female=yes) > What about something I see fairly often at airports? A large women's restroom, a large men's restroom, and a single-stall "family" restroom? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
On 25/04/18 19:58, Michael Reichert wrote: > Your proposed redefinition of unisex=yes would change the meaning of > an established and highly used tag. Please invent new tags. This isn't redefining, to quote the wiki unisex=yes means "denotes that access is unrestricted by a person's sex or gender.", which describes a gender neutral toilet! The clue is in "uni-", it means the thing acts like there only one (sex), it doesn't act like there are 2 (sexes). It's still correct to say "unisex=yes implies male=yes and female=yes" (i.e. males & females can still use the facility). The big question: How do we differentiate between a thing that (a) severs all genders, and (b) one that serves all genders (but segregates people into 2 categories (male & female)). How do we tag "gender neutral" vs "gender segregated"? In common English speech, "unisex" means (a), the wiki implies (a). JOSM developers changed the validator (& suggested auto fix) to align with (a). In common English, a gender segregated toilet is not a "unisex toilet"! So I thought "unisex=yes" meant gender neutral! > Sorry for the stupid question but are there more types of toilets than > the following three? > - male only > - female only > - not assigned to a specific gender Your last case should be split into two common cases: (i) Gender neutral (i.e. non-segregated), everyone sharing, and (ii) male & female segregated. I suggest (& am using): (1) unisex=yes - This is a unisex, gender neutral toilet (2) male=yes female=yes unisex=no - There are (separated) male & female toilet facilities here, no unisex facilities. (3) female=yes male=no unisex=no - Only female toilet facilities here (4) male=yes female=no unisex=no - Only male toilet facilities here and I suggest that if both male & female tags are set, you can presume unisex=no unless unisex is also set (but it's good to set the unisex tag) I'm not sure if there is anywhere that would be: (5) 3 options male, female & unisex (unisex=yes male=yes female=yes) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
(a) This is OSM, if it exists, we map it. 😁😁 Gender neutral vs. gender segregated toilets exist. So how do we map that? (b) Many people benefit from gender neutral toilets: Gender non-conforming people, some trans people, people with carers of a different gender. Mapping these facilities allows them to be found. Wikipedia has more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet On 24/04/18 20:02, Tobias Zwick wrote: Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is the application? On 24/04/2018 18:27, Rory McCann wrote: Hi all, Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not segregated into separate male & female facilities. Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws" to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some people to know where they are. But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2]. iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex, it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes. If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would think gender segregated. Big difference. I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes", which is "gender segregated". Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force things. A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.) Rory P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4], which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536 [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
not only that, bit generally in North America, men's washrooms are usually dirtier than woamns washrooms On Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 2:46 PM Kathleen Lu, wrote: > I think the most likely application may be the other way around, where > transgender individuals concerned about harassment may purposefully seek > out restrooms that are designated unisex in order to reduce the chances of > encountering someone who might challenge whether they are using the > "correct" restroom. > -Kathleen > > On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:12 AM Frederik Ramm > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote: >> > Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is >> > segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is >> > the application? >> >> I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet >> that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all >> genders. >> >> Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering >> stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are* >> people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also >> "who else can use that toilet". >> >> Bye >> Frederik >> >> -- >> Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
I think the most likely application may be the other way around, where transgender individuals concerned about harassment may purposefully seek out restrooms that are designated unisex in order to reduce the chances of encountering someone who might challenge whether they are using the "correct" restroom. -Kathleen On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:12 AM Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote: > > Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is > > segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is > > the application? > > I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet > that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all > genders. > > Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering > stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are* > people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also > "who else can use that toilet". > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
Hi, On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote: > Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is > segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is > the application? I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all genders. Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are* people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also "who else can use that toilet". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is the application? On 24/04/2018 18:27, Rory McCann wrote: > Hi all, > Let's have a wee talk about how should one map gender neutral (and > gender segregated) toilets. There is a unisex=yes for toilets which > looks like it might be the number one tag to use. The bog standard > meaning of "unisex toilet"[1] is a gender neutral toilet, i.e. not > segregated into separate male & female facilities. > > Many smaller public toilets are single occupancy and hence unisex, many > larger public toilets (e.g. in shopping centers) are segregated. Social > conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so > their new target is trans people, and they're proposing "bathroom laws" > to limit trans people's access to public life. Some organizations are > making their toilets "gender neutral" in response. So there are probably > a lot of gender neutral public toilets, and it's very useful for some > people to know where they are. > > But I don't think that's how "unisex=yes" been used in OSM. The wiki > page says "unisex=yes" is a shorthand for "male=yes female=yes". The > JOSM validator used to suggest that replacement, until I filed a bug[2]. > iD's preset has 3 mutually exclusive options, Male, Female and Unisex, > it won't let you add both male=yes female=yes. > > If I see "amenity=toilets unisex=yes", I would think this is a gender > neutral toilet. If I see "amenity=toilets female=yes male=yes" I would > think gender segregated. Big difference. > > I propose that we start viewing "unisex=yes" on toilets as meaning > "gender neutral toilet", which is different from "male=yes female=yes", > which is "gender segregated". > > Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Is unisex-yes tag being used > by many projects? What do they interpret it as? It's good not to force > things. > > A year ago Micah Cochran's suggestion[3] would be along these lines, but > some changed to toilets:for:unisex=yes (etc.) > > Rory > > P.S. I am doing this as part of the "Diversity Quarterly Project"[4], > which for the quarter is gendered toilets. Plenty of toilets have no > male/female (and/or unisex) tag, and we should add those tags. > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet > [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15536 > [3] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Toilet_Tagging_Improvements > > [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity_Quarterly_Project/2018_Q2 > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:27:02 +0200 Rory McCann wrote: > Thoughts? Feedback? Anything I'm missing? Note that defining tag with proposal on wiki will not change existing data or immediately change how people understand tag. I was not investigating the situation in this case but have you considered inventing new tag, not tainted by confusion that you described (I have no idea is it a good idea in this particular situation). > conservatives are mostly losing the battle on same-sex marriage, so > their new target is trans people I think that it is preferably to skip such parts, I am not convinced that adding political discussion is an useful addition. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
