Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Greg Troxel]

Kathleen Lu via talk  writes:

>  My local University is the same way. Students and faculty automatically
> get access, but community and alumni can get access by paying fees.
>
> Is access=members an option?
>
> It implies that you have to become a member according to some criteria, but
> that membership is possible for a large swath of people.

I think that's just fee=yes, sort of the same as a parking lot anyone
can use but they have to pay.

(The fact that some people are already prepaid somehow is not important.)

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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

 My local University is the same way. Students and faculty automatically
get access, but community and alumni can get access by paying fees.

Is access=members an option?

It implies that you have to become a member according to some criteria, but
that membership is possible for a large swath of people.


On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:34 AM Christian Rogel <
christian.ro...@club-internet.fr> wrote:

> Le 21 avr. 2020 à 03:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Currently we can already mark if the library is open to the public on not
> (access=yes means open to the general public), but it's unclear how say a
> school library or library restricted to attendees of an educational
> facility like a university should be tagged (is it access=private since
> only those people attending the institution have been given permission?
>
> access=customers?
>
>
>
> Libraries rarely get « customers ». In most of the public libraries, your
> are free to enter, to grab any material ans to sit down for hours. No need
> to suscribe for these services.
>
>
> Besides, the libraries of the French universities are providng their
> services to any person paying the fees, same as the students.
>
>
>
>
>
> As the type of services and the social role are rich and complex, un
> unusual number of subtags is required :
>
>
>1. pubic targeted
>2. intellectual content (collections)
>3. material types (books, manuscripts, records, artworks, maps…)
>4. lending / no lending / mobile ending
>5. administrative status (municipal, school, county, ngo, state,
>university, corporate…)
>
>
>
>
> Christian Rogel
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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Christian Rogel]

> Le 21 avr. 2020 à 03:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> 
>> Currently we can already mark if the library is open to the public on not 
>> (access=yes means open to the general public), but it's unclear how say a 
>> school library or library restricted to attendees of an educational facility 
>> like a university should be tagged (is it access=private since only those 
>> people attending the institution have been given permission?
> access=customers? 


Libraries rarely get « customers ». In most of the public libraries, your are 
free to enter, to grab any material ans to sit down for hours. No need to 
suscribe for these services.


Besides, the libraries of the French universities are providng their services 
to any person paying the fees, same as the students.





As the type of services and the social role are rich and complex, un unusual 
number of subtags is required :

pubic targeted
intellectual content (collections)
material types (books, manuscripts, records, artworks, maps…)
lending / no lending / mobile ending
administrative status (municipal, school, county, ngo, state, university, 
corporate…)



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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Greg Troxel]

Andrew Harvey  writes:

> Currently we can already mark if the library is open to the public on not
> (access=yes means open to the general public), but it's unclear how say a
> school library or library restricted to attendees of an educational
> facility like a university should be tagged (is it access=private since
> only those people attending the institution have been given permission?

If a library is open only to registered students, then access=private is
in order.

I don't think access=customers is valid.   If there is a restaurant that
is open to the public, and they have a parking lot, and you can only
park in it if you are going to the restaurant, then access=customers
makes sense.

A key point for access=customers is that anybody may choose to be a
customer.  If you can't decide to be a customer, that's what private
means.

Arguably, the most important things to do are:

  ensure that all open-to-public libraries are on the map

  ensure that rendering and search de-emphasizes access=private libraries

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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Certainly, it is a good idea.

There is the list of 32 countries on the  page: 
https://english.slks.dk/libraries/library-standards/isil/ . Does it mean 
that other countries did not join the ISIL classification yet?


I wanted to add an ISIL code for a library in a country which is not in 
this list, but I could not find its code via search engines.


Best regards,

O.


On 21-Apr-20 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
There is an international standard identifier for libraries, "ISIL" / 
ISO 15511, maintained by the Danish /Slots- og Kulturstyrelsen/, which 
I would recommend to add: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:isil


Cheers
Martin



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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

There is an international standard identifier for libraries, "ISIL" / ISO
15511, maintained by the Danish *Slots- og Kulturstyrelsen*, which I would
recommend to add: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref:isil

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

I would like to remark that many libraries have their Wikipedia 
articles. Even when a library does not have an article, it could be 
created. The best way to approach this is to do a survey of the library.
For example, I created the article (plus the Wikidata item and Wikimedia 
category) for this library: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1958300384


I took some images which reflect its location, type of the building, 
interior of the library, the exact title, as displayed on the entrance 
sign, the street number, etc. and added the corresponding links to the 
OSM node.


Even though it is a relatively small library no one in the community 
contested so far the noteworthiness of the article, what is not always 
the case when creating an article on some other subject.


So one more thing to do when mapping a library is to add some meaningful 
quality images, if necessary GPS traces, i.e to do a dedicated survey 
with consequent publishing of the results in the OSM.


Best regards,
O.

On 20-Apr-20 22:00, Christian Rogel wrote:
We are generally aware of the importance of the libraries, as they are 
numerous and useful by their variety (public, academic, specialized, 
school…).
But, why they have been so neglected by us, the mappers, seing them on 
the ground, getting maybe frequently in ?

So poors are the tags for describing them.

Yes, you can add the address, the phone, the opening hours and a few 
precisions. See ameniy = library 

But, you cannot indicate which public is admitted, if most of the 
collection is visible, which kind of documents is displayed and/or 
lended, and so on…


I suggest that every person capable proposes some categorization and 
enriches the wiki page above.


From a few hours discussion on the French OSM list, we were looming 
around using «  library:for = {public targeted} and library_collection.

But, there are more than 2 angles in library and information services.

Note : a map of the libraries in the world 
 was launched years ago by the 
International Federation of Library Associations (IFLA), but we do not 
see any location, the figures per countries only.
Let us remember the huge number of 2.6 M libraries registered. The 
French version on Google Map displays 162 locations.


81 500 /amenity=library/ are present in OSM database today 
 20 
apr. (5 500 in France). We can reach a richer content.



Christian Rogel
Retired chief librarian (France)


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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

When I think of access=customers, I think of toilets inside a restaurant,
or a parking lot outside a pub you can only usually access as a customer,
so only things that are inside other things. The restaurant itself or the
pub wouldn't normally have the access tag. But I guess for an institutional
library only open to students I guess you could say they are "customers" of
the university, it's just a bit less clear.

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:29, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/4/20 10:44 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
> Agreed that we could do better, see the proposal process for new tags
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process.
>
> Currently we can already mark if the library is open to the public on not
> (access=yes means open to the general public), but it's unclear how say a
> school library or library restricted to attendees of an educational
> facility like a university should be tagged (is it access=private since
> only those people attending the institution have been given permission?
>
> access=customers?
>
>
> You can mark the operator of the library with
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator, which might be the
> local municipality/government/council, or might be the school or university.
>
> You can mark the operator type with
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type eg public, private,
> government, religious, ngo, community, consortium, cooperative.
>
> There are open questions similar to yours at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=library#Types_of_libraries
>
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 06:04, Christian Rogel <
> christian.ro...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>
>> We are generally aware of the importance of the libraries, as they are
>> numerous and useful by their variety (public, academic, specialized,
>> school…).
>> But, why they have been so neglected by us, the mappers, seing them on
>> the ground, getting maybe frequently in ?
>> So poors are the tags for describing them.
>>
>> Yes, you can add the address, the phone, the opening hours and a few
>> precisions. See ameniy = library
>> 
>> But, you cannot indicate which public is admitted, if most of the
>> collection is visible, which kind of documents is displayed and/or lended,
>> and so on…
>>
>> I suggest that every person capable proposes some categorization and
>> enriches the wiki page above.
>>
>> From a few hours discussion on the French OSM list, we were looming
>> around using «  library:for = {public targeted} and library_collection.
>> But, there are more than 2 angles in library and information services.
>>
>> Note : a map of the libraries in the world
>>  was launched years ago by the
>> International Federation of Library Associations (IFLA), but we do not see
>> any location, the figures per countries only.
>> Let us remember the huge number of 2.6 M libraries registered. The French
>> version on Google Map displays 162 locations.
>>
>> 81 500 *amenity=library* are  present in OSM database today
>>  20
>> apr. (5 500 in France). We can reach a richer content.
>>
>>
>> Christian Rogel
>> Retired chief librarian (France)
>>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Warin]

On 21/4/20 10:44 am, Andrew Harvey wrote:
Agreed that we could do better, see the proposal process for new tags 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process.


Currently we can already mark if the library is open to the public on 
not (access=yes means open to the general public), but it's unclear 
how say a school library or library restricted to attendees of an 
educational facility like a university should be tagged (is it 
access=private since only those people attending the institution have 
been given permission?

access=customers?


You can mark the operator of the library with 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator, which might be the 
local municipality/government/council, or might be the school or 
university.


You can mark the operator type with 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type eg public, 
private, government, religious, ngo, community, consortium, cooperative.


There are open questions similar to yours at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=library#Types_of_libraries


On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 06:04, Christian Rogel 
> wrote:


We are generally aware of the importance of the libraries, as they
are numerous and useful by their variety (public, academic,
specialized, school…).
But, why they have been so neglected by us, the mappers, seing
them on the ground, getting maybe frequently in ?
So poors are the tags for describing them.

Yes, you can add the address, the phone, the opening hours and a
few precisions. See ameniy = library

But, you cannot indicate which public is admitted, if most of the
collection is visible, which kind of documents is displayed and/or
lended, and so on…

I suggest that every person capable proposes some categorization
and enriches the wiki page above.

From a few hours discussion on the French OSM list, we were
looming around using «  library:for = {public targeted} and
library_collection.
But, there are more than 2 angles in library and information services.

Note : a map of the libraries in the world
 was launched years ago by the
International Federation of Library Associations (IFLA), but we do
not see any location, the figures per countries only.
Let us remember the huge number of 2.6 M libraries registered. The
French version on Google Map displays 162 locations.

81 500 /amenity=library/ are present in OSM database today

20 apr. (5 500 in France). We can reach a richer content.


Christian Rogel
Retired chief librarian (France)

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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Warin]

Some questions..

Who will use this information in OSM?
In particular ISIL information appears to be, in Australia, for contact 
between libraries and they will already have systems in place for that 
so adding that information may not help anyone.


The library collection (books/films/etc), use 
(academic/history/faimily_history etc) may be of interest but again .. 
who will use it within OSM?


The operator would give some indication as to if the library is public, 
academic, private, etc.

The opening hours data can be usefull too.
And a website.

On 21/4/20 6:00 am, Christian Rogel wrote:
We are generally aware of the importance of the libraries, as they are 
numerous and useful by their variety (public, academic, specialized, 
school…).
But, why they have been so neglected by us, the mappers, seing them on 
the ground, getting maybe frequently in ?

So poors are the tags for describing them.

Yes, you can add the address, the phone, the opening hours and a few 
precisions. See ameniy = library 

But, you cannot indicate which public is admitted, if most of the 
collection is visible, which kind of documents is displayed and/or 
lended, and so on…


I suggest that every person capable proposes some categorization and 
enriches the wiki page above.



There should be consensus with the tagging used so as not to have a 
single tag (such as library:type=*) used for many different things - 
e.g. the media book/film/audio/maps together with the access 
public/private/permissive/customer/staff and then the 'importance' 
national/international/local/state. This would be better discussed on 
the tagging list where those more concerned with tagging gather.




From a few hours discussion on the French OSM list, we were looming 
around using «  library:for = {public targeted} and library_collection.

But, there are more than 2 angles in library and information services.

Note : a map of the libraries in the world 
 was launched years ago by the 
International Federation of Library Associations (IFLA), but we do not 
see any location, the figures per countries only.
Let us remember the huge number of 2.6 M libraries registered. The 
French version on Google Map displays 162 locations.



While the 2.6 M is a number some of the entries (singular) represent a 
number of small local libraries in a shire/council area so the actual 
number of libraries is higher.




81 500 /amenity=library/ are present in OSM database today 
 20 
apr. (5 500 in France). We can reach a richer content.



Christian Rogel
Retired chief librarian (France)




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Re: [OSM-talk] It's time to manage libraries properly in OSM

[Andrew Harvey]

Agreed that we could do better, see the proposal process for new tags
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process.

Currently we can already mark if the library is open to the public on not
(access=yes means open to the general public), but it's unclear how say a
school library or library restricted to attendees of an educational
facility like a university should be tagged (is it access=private since
only those people attending the institution have been given permission?

You can mark the operator of the library with
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator, which might be the local
municipality/government/council, or might be the school or university.

You can mark the operator type with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type eg public, private,
government, religious, ngo, community, consortium, cooperative.

There are open questions similar to yours at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=library#Types_of_libraries

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 06:04, Christian Rogel <
christian.ro...@club-internet.fr> wrote:

> We are generally aware of the importance of the libraries, as they are
> numerous and useful by their variety (public, academic, specialized,
> school…).
> But, why they have been so neglected by us, the mappers, seing them on the
> ground, getting maybe frequently in ?
> So poors are the tags for describing them.
>
> Yes, you can add the address, the phone, the opening hours and a few
> precisions. See ameniy = library
> 
> But, you cannot indicate which public is admitted, if most of the
> collection is visible, which kind of documents is displayed and/or lended,
> and so on…
>
> I suggest that every person capable proposes some categorization and
> enriches the wiki page above.
>
> From a few hours discussion on the French OSM list, we were looming around
> using «  library:for = {public targeted} and library_collection.
> But, there are more than 2 angles in library and information services.
>
> Note : a map of the libraries in the world
>  was launched years ago by the
> International Federation of Library Associations (IFLA), but we do not see
> any location, the figures per countries only.
> Let us remember the huge number of 2.6 M libraries registered. The French
> version on Google Map displays 162 locations.
>
> 81 500 *amenity=library* are  present in OSM database today
>  20 apr.
> (5 500 in France). We can reach a richer content.
>
>
> Christian Rogel
> Retired chief librarian (France)
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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