Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
Back to the OP, I don't think the OSMF should define goals and what the crowd should map first. What makes the success of OSM is not only showing a slippy map or calculating a route from A to B but really its openness. If the foundation defines our goals, it will fail anyway but could generate some frustration for those who don't care about these goals (e.g addresses). Like the net neutrality for ISP's, the foundation should promote map neutrality and not some datasets required by specific applications (commercial or not). Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
On 10/28/2014 11:00 AM, Pieren wrote: Back to the OP, I don't think the OSMF should define goals and what the crowd should map first. What makes the success of OSM is not only showing a slippy map or calculating a route from A to B but really its openness. If the foundation defines our goals, it will fail anyway but could generate some frustration for those who don't care about these goals (e.g addresses). Like the net neutrality for ISP's, the foundation should promote map neutrality and not some datasets required by specific applications (commercial or not). Yes. I the foundation's mission statement clearly spells out that it is all about fostering the best possible environment for the map to thrive in the bottom up fashion that made it successful... Not by decreeing goals from the top. As usual in Openstreetmap's do-ocracy, if you want something hard enough you start doing it and find friends to collaborate with. What you need is not the foundation telling you to do it but the open welcoming soil of the Openstreetmap infrastructure for yours idea to take root. Addresses are no exception. I would say they are even exceptionally suited to the do-ocratic model because there are rather powerful commercial and governmental interests in them... They are not an orphan project, by far. So let those who consider addresses a critical piece of the Openstreetmap puzzle add them - the French BANO (Open National Addresses Database) project is reaching critical mass, brilliantly showing that Openstreetmap is lucky to have exceptionally skilled and motivated individuals to lead the way... Ask them if you need inspiration - don't ask the foundation. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
First question: how do you build the world's best addressable map ? Through imports or survey ? Is the timeframe that Martin puts forward fur surveyed addresses acceptable and feasible ? As for the imports: Wouldn't it be great that we would have import tools that can be used by many groups ? Just as we have great editors for manual mapping. Shouldn't the OSMF (or however) invest in a procedure + tools for import ? So when a group wants to perform an import, they only have make sure the license is compatible and the data has enough quality. The process of the import is already described, the tools ( task managers, data conversion, some quality checks etc.) are in place. They deliver the data and the import can start. I have the impression that right now each group has to take all those obstacles all by themselves. Maybe I have a totally wrong perception of the import process. please correct me if that's the case. regards m On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Steve Coast suggested changing the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s best addressable map” I thought I'd separate out this into a new thread. As some backup, I attended my first SOTM-US in 2012 where Steve proposed we build an addressable map. A group of us from Seattle decided that we'd take that challenge and import addresses for Seattle. That import was completed. Here are the address related comments: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00 Steve Coast st...@asklater.com: Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better, we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen. I agree with you that addressing is very important for a lot of commercial (and non-commercial) map users. What I don't understand is how a paid board would help us map more addresses. Unfortunately mapping addresses is typically less fun than going to the video arcade. Looking at the current figures we are not doing too bad. Currently there are 130 Million buildings in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers. I don't know exactly how many buildings there are in the world, and how many of them don't have addresses, but I guess it will be at least 1 Billion addresses in the world, probably more. According to the stats page we have roughly 25.000 active contributors a month ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contributor_Stats ). To get an address on all currently mapped buildings in three years time, (84M to go), every active contributor would have to add 93 addresses a month - constantly. To get 1 Billion addresses mapped by 25.000 contributors in 3 yrs, it would be housenumbers a month per active contributor. Are we planning to pay the mappers as well? The only solution seems to get more contributors mapping, and have them insert addresses. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: It would be nice to know how many of the buildings and house numbers in OSM were imported versus surveyed / drawn by hand. I have a bad feeling about how feasible it is to crowd surf house numbers. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote: It is not necessary to put down a number on each building. It is possible to use *addr:interpolation* (*odd, even*, or *all*). We put down a number on the first building, then on the last, connect them in JOSM, and add *addr:interpolation: all *. For example here: http://osm.org/go/0CFn0AZ_d--?m= . It is also very useful on a street with many small houses. And it is searchable. For example if there is number 15 and number 27 on the map for a street, and they are connected with *addr:interpolation: odd, *and if one searches number 21, the map will show the number 21 all right. Then, there is another approach. We first map addressable large building, where a lot of people live or work. Kind of of going after the low-hanging fruit. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: On 22 October 2014 12:37, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Currently there are 130 Million buildings in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers. Do we know how many of these addresses come from imports? I wouldn't be surprised if over 90% of the housenumbers in OSM come from imports. The Dutch BAG import accounts for 8 million adresses, and the Czech RUIAN import accounts for 3 million addresses. Then there have also been large imports at least in Germany, Poland, and France, but for these countries I can't find exact numbers. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
2014-10-23 8:57 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: Is the timeframe that Martin puts forward fur surveyed addresses acceptable and feasible ? I believe for surveyed addresses it is completely unrealistic - if our active user base continues to grow like it did in the past 3 years, and if the majority of mappers remains concentrated in the urban parts of the western world. It also depends on how good you expect the coverage to be (by covering urban areas you'll get a lot of addresses with much fewer effort than you'll need for surveying the remaining addresses in remote rural areas). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
I like addresses but they don't behave like you would think. For example we have a part of a street that has each individual flat as its own address number. We first used the number;number;number; approach but I'm now in favor of naming the house what it says on the front (the range 37-51) and then put address nodes on the building so it appears in search, with roughly the position accounting for where in the house the apartment is. In this case the numbers closest to the street are at the bottom floor (the stadium approach I favor). I'm in favor of moving this same method over to the other houses. http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/64.13635/-21.79883 As for being able to search within a specific town or area then I think we should look again at relations and super-relations. You could group streets relations into a neighborhood relation and then into a town or municipality relation etc. This of course works very differently based on country but for Iceland I can't see us hitting any limits. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Super-Relation Regards on behalf of the Icelandic Local Chapter applicant, Jói Þann 22.10.2014 18:28, skrifaði Clifford Snow: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote: It is not necessary to put down a number on each building. It is possible to use /addr:interpolation/ (/odd, even/, or /all/). We put down a number on the first building, then on the last, connect them in JOSM, and add /addr:interpolation: all /. For example here: http://osm.org/go/0CFn0AZ_d--?m= . It is also very useful on a street with many small houses. And it is searchable. For example if there is number 15 and number 27 on the map for a street, and they are connected with /addr:interpolation: odd, /and//if one searches number 21, the map will show the number 21 all right. Then, there is another approach. We first map addressable large building, where a lot of people live or work. Kind of of going after the low-hanging fruit. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
I agree that addresses is a complicated field. There are different historical systems, there are cities where even many streets are without names, etc. There is a lot of space for innovation, certainly. What I meant is that it is not obligatory to map a city or a town addressable from one end to another, one house after another, or wait until a municipal government releases into public domain its database of addresses (which may be not without errors or omissions too). If there are, say, 10% of buildings where 90% of the population lives, studies and works, it makes sense to map them addressable first. Often these are large modern buildings with clear addresses. And it is much easier to return into the same area for the second time, when there are already at least some large buildings with numbers, much easier to orientate oneself. I see from your example that in the city of Reykjavik almost every building has a number, so you have a more advanced set of priorities. Best regards, Oleksiy On 23.10.2014 10:39, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: I like addresses but they don't behave like you would think. For example we have a part of a street that has each individual flat as its own address number. We first used the number;number;number; approach but I'm now in favor of naming the house what it says on the front (the range 37-51) and then put address nodes on the building so it appears in search, with roughly the position accounting for where in the house the apartment is. In this case the numbers closest to the street are at the bottom floor (the stadium approach I favor). I'm in favor of moving this same method over to the other houses. http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/64.13635/-21.79883 As for being able to search within a specific town or area then I think we should look again at relations and super-relations. You could group streets relations into a neighborhood relation and then into a town or municipality relation etc. This of course works very differently based on country but for Iceland I can't see us hitting any limits. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Super-Relation Regards on behalf of the Icelandic Local Chapter applicant, Jói Þann 22.10.2014 18:28, skrifaði Clifford Snow: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote: It is not necessary to put down a number on each building. It is possible to use /addr:interpolation/ (/odd, even/, or /all/). We put down a number on the first building, then on the last, connect them in JOSM, and add /addr:interpolation: all /. For example here: http://osm.org/go/0CFn0AZ_d--?m= . It is also very useful on a street with many small houses. And it is searchable. For example if there is number 15 and number 27 on the map for a street, and they are connected with /addr:interpolation: odd, /and/ /if one searches number 21, the map will show the number 21 all right. Then, there is another approach. We first map addressable large building, where a lot of people live or work. Kind of of going after the low-hanging fruit. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
I'm adding OSMF-talk since it concerns what I outlined in the original “vision statement” email. I was perhaps too specific and jumped ahead saying “world’s best addressable map”. What I really mean is the “world's most complete open map”. There are three pieces to a modern map. There's the display piece, the routing and the geocoding. We won the display piece. It looks great. We are ok at routing. Not perfect or great, but ok. We're really lacking on the addressing. If we can get addressing even to the “ok” stage then a lot more people will use OSM, which means more editors, more community and more data. This is because the main use for maps today by the public is to get somewhere, and we can't help with that without all three pieces. Right now we have 2/3. I jumped ahead because I see this every day, and I understand not everybody does. I think all the other things are good too, even every tree in OSM! I just know that if we had to pick one thing to focus on it would be addressing, as it will get all the other things to happen faster too. But that doesn't mean you can't add trees in to OSM at the same time, just that the shortest path to getting more of everything is to get more of addressing. Also let's be clear - addressing isn't easy. It's complicated and hard. But that's a good goal to have, and OSM was complicated and hard in the first place. Steve From: Oleksiy Muzalyev Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 2:53 AM To: Jóhannes Birgir Jensson, talk@openstreetmap.org I agree that addresses is a complicated field. There are different historical systems, there are cities where even many streets are without names, etc. There is a lot of space for innovation, certainly. What I meant is that it is not obligatory to map a city or a town addressable from one end to another, one house after another, or wait until a municipal government releases into public domain its database of addresses (which may be not without errors or omissions too). If there are, say, 10% of buildings where 90% of the population lives, studies and works, it makes sense to map them addressable first. Often these are large modern buildings with clear addresses. And it is much easier to return into the same area for the second time, when there are already at least some large buildings with numbers, much easier to orientate oneself. I see from your example that in the city of Reykjavik almost every building has a number, so you have a more advanced set of priorities. Best regards, Oleksiy On 23.10.2014 10:39, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: I like addresses but they don't behave like you would think. For example we have a part of a street that has each individual flat as its own address number. We first used the number;number;number; approach but I'm now in favor of naming the house what it says on the front (the range 37-51) and then put address nodes on the building so it appears in search, with roughly the position accounting for where in the house the apartment is. In this case the numbers closest to the street are at the bottom floor (the stadium approach I favor). I'm in favor of moving this same method over to the other houses. http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/64.13635/-21.79883 As for being able to search within a specific town or area then I think we should look again at relations and super-relations. You could group streets relations into a neighborhood relation and then into a town or municipality relation etc. This of course works very differently based on country but for Iceland I can't see us hitting any limits. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Super-Relation Regards on behalf of the Icelandic Local Chapter applicant, Jói Þann 22.10.2014 18:28, skrifaði Clifford Snow: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch wrote: It is not necessary to put down a number on each building. It is possible to use addr:interpolation (odd, even, or all). We put down a number on the first building, then on the last, connect them in JOSM, and add addr:interpolation: all . For example here: http://osm.org/go/0CFn0AZ_d--?m= . It is also very useful on a street with many small houses. And it is searchable. For example if there is number 15 and number 27 on the map for a street, and they are connected with addr:interpolation: odd, and if one searches number 21, the map will show the number 21 all right. Then, there is another approach. We first map addressable large building, where a lot of people live or work. Kind of of going after the low-hanging fruit. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
This is selfevident. Without more or less complete addresses the map cannot be used in, say, an ambulance application, or in a delivery service application, etc. It is unusable. But if there is a /critical mass/ of addresses for a town or a city, then the rest could be completed by the same ambulance or delivery service drivers. They actually drive to a certain address, and may mark it on the map for future calls or deliveries. On the other hand, in mountains I always rely on GPS traces, as a GPS trace means that someone really walked this way. A GPS trace is the most important in mountains. So World's most complete map seems to be OK. brgds Oleksiy On 23.10.2014 18:56, st...@asklater.com wrote: ... What I really mean is the “world's most complete open map”. There are three pieces to a modern map. There's the display piece, the routing and the geocoding. We won the display piece. It looks great. We are ok at routing. Not perfect or great, but ok. We're really lacking on the addressing... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
Thanks for creating this project in the first place Steve. In an interview earlier this year you said pretty much the same thing. I believe this is a vital step forward in the First World countries where other competing solutions, both local and global, are not delivering enough. However I disagree that this might be THE key issue. Where we are lacking even more at the moment is the world we knew previously as Third World but as Hans Rosling has demonstrated that name does not mean anything anymore. Let me take Botswana as an example, a project I've been trying to get rolling for the past year as Mapping Botswana. They do not have many addresses at all, in the newest areas they are creating US-style cul-de-sacs and putting addresses and streetnames but in the capital itself, Gaborone, the older areas are designed as plots, arbitrarily sized areas that encompass many buildings so your address will be Plot 525 and then you need to look for the correct sign to find the correct building. This plot data is currently not under a license we can work with. Elsewhere the rural villages are a mishmash of roads and paths and arbitrarily placed buildings mostly, with no street names or anything. The only thing we could use there is a census number that each residential building is supposed to be assigned. I doubt they were intended as addresses but we are looking into it. The offline apps and tools are vital here - in Africa, Asia and Latin America where mobile networks are still slow, still unreliable for coverage and data usage often pricey. Not to mention the map coverage is often limited to a name on commercial maps. This is where OSM makes a huge difference. I live in a country where Google has already StreetViewed most of it, a local service ja.is has imported all official address data (including bad data) and they also made their own version of StreetView called 360°. In Iceland we are up against corporations who are doing their utmost to make a good map and so we try even harder to be better. But we don't kid ourselves, if Iceland were deleted from OSM then there would still be good online maps from these other providers. The offline feature starts to give OSM an edge - they are something we should strive to make better, something done by many app makers, some of the good and some of the poor. If however Botswana were deleted then there are small parts of Botswana who would still enjoy pretty decent coverage on Bing and Google but all the rural areas, villages and hamlets, are not there. The HOTOSM projects and related ones are what is giving OSM the bite, in my view. Delete the ebola-affected areas from OSM and you set back local efforts and local knowledge with devastating results. Delete New York City data and you can still get around on Google or Bing or whatever, although you are missing out on many great improvements that have been made. This is my view of OSM, it matters most where there are no other alternatives. Best wishes, Jóhannes Þann 23.10.2014 16:56, skrifaði st...@asklater.com: I'm adding OSMF-talk since it concerns what I outlined in the original “vision statement” email. I was perhaps too specific and jumped ahead saying “world’s best addressable map”. What I really mean is the “world's most complete open map”. There are three pieces to a modern map. There's the display piece, the routing and the geocoding. We won the display piece. It looks great. We are ok at routing. Not perfect or great, but ok. We're really lacking on the addressing. If we can get addressing even to the “ok” stage then a lot more people will use OSM, which means more editors, more community and more data. This is because the main use for maps today by the public is to get somewhere, and we can't help with that without all three pieces. Right now we have 2/3. I jumped ahead because I see this every day, and I understand not everybody does. I think all the other things are good too, even every tree in OSM! I just know that if we had to pick one thing to focus on it would be addressing, as it will get all the other things to happen faster too. But that doesn't mean you can't add trees in to OSM at the same time, just that the shortest path to getting more of everything is to get more of addressing. Also let's be clear - addressing isn't easy. It's complicated and hard. But that's a good goal to have, and OSM was complicated and hard in the first place. Steve *From:* Oleksiy Muzalyev mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch *Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 2:53 AM *To:* Jóhannes Birgir Jensson mailto:j...@betra.is, talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org I agree that addresses is a complicated field. There are different historical systems, there are cities where even many streets are without names, etc. There is a lot of space for innovation, certainly. What I meant is that it is not obligatory to map a city
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 6:56 PM, st...@asklater.com wrote: What I really mean is the “world's most complete open map”. There are three pieces to a modern map. There's the display piece, the routing and the geocoding. We won the display piece. It looks great. We are ok at routing. Not perfect or great, but ok. We're really lacking on the addressing. If we can get addressing even to the “ok” stage then a lot more people will use OSM, which means more editors, more community and more data. This is because the main use for maps today by the public is to get somewhere, and we can't help with that without all three pieces. Right now we have 2/3. A map is a representation of the world, and the most accurate it is, the more it helps. Given the current circumstances OSM is doing great at displaying, but the circumstances keep changing all the time and other actors are pushing forward, building up 3d models that later on can be used in mixed applications, and overlaying all kinds of data. I agree that most people just want to know how to get from A to B, the travel options available, and how long it takes. But then there is the whole business/tourism searching, etc. because a map is never just a map, it is a tool to make the most of the world. If you want to build the world's most complete open map, then you need to take into account all aspects needed for representing the world, which is basically *everything*. Anyhow, as mission it is challenging enough :) Cheers, Micru ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
2014-10-23 8:57 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: First question: how do you build the world's best addressable map ? Through imports or survey ? Is the timeframe that Martin puts forward fur surveyed addresses acceptable and feasible ? As for the imports: Wouldn't it be great that we would have import tools that can be used by many groups ? Just as we have great editors for manual mapping. Shouldn't the OSMF (or however) invest in a procedure + tools for import ? So when a group wants to perform an import, they only have make sure the license is compatible and the data has enough quality. The process of the import is already described, the tools ( task managers, data conversion, some quality checks etc.) are in place. They deliver the data and the import can start. I have the impression that right now each group has to take all those obstacles all by themselves. Maybe I have a totally wrong perception of the import process. please correct me if that's the case. regards m I partially share your impression that each group has to take obstacles by themselves. Since OSM is a social project I think it's good that people with experience on (importing) addresses and buildings share their experience. I see this happen on the @import list, user diaries etc. The somewhat scattered knowledge around could however be shared more centralized to make it a bit more accessible, so I created a page on the wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Importing_buildings_and_addresses) in which anybody can share their knowledge (I will do so this November). Furthermore, SOTM Buenos Aires hosts 2 presentations on addresses. I don't see manual work for OSM as an obstacle. Any import (or survey :-) ) requires some manual work because the current map is far from blank, so the almost full-automatic import you describe is IMHO not possible. Though semi-automatic assistance by tools (like the wonderful Geofabrik inspector address view) help a lot keeping the work fun. As for tools: it would help when more tools for importing and updating could be programmed. As an example: I'm not aware of any tool which makes it possible to semi-automatically compare building outlines to the outlines of an updated government database, highlighting major differences in geometry. On the role of the OSMF: I think it shouldn't be the OSMF investing in a procedure + tools. It would already be great and an energizing factor when (members of) OSMF would express support for having more address and building data in OSM, be it either from surveys or from imports. Cheers, Johan On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Steve Coast suggested changing the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s best addressable map” I thought I'd separate out this into a new thread. As some backup, I attended my first SOTM-US in 2012 where Steve proposed we build an addressable map. A group of us from Seattle decided that we'd take that challenge and import addresses for Seattle. That import was completed. Here are the address related comments: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00 Steve Coast st...@asklater.com: Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better, we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen. I agree with you that addressing is very important for a lot of commercial (and non-commercial) map users. What I don't understand is how a paid board would help us map more addresses. Unfortunately mapping addresses is typically less fun than going to the video arcade. Looking at the current figures we are not doing too bad. Currently there are 130 Million buildings in OSM and 46 Million housenumbers. I don't know exactly how many buildings there are in the world, and how many of them don't have addresses, but I guess it will be at least 1 Billion addresses in the world, probably more. According to the stats page we have roughly 25.000 active contributors a month ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Contributor_Stats ). To get an address on all currently mapped buildings in three years time, (84M to go), every active contributor would have to add 93 addresses a month - constantly. To get 1 Billion addresses mapped by 25.000 contributors in 3 yrs, it would be housenumbers a month per active contributor. Are we planning to pay the mappers as well? The only solution seems to get more contributors mapping, and have them insert addresses. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:59 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: It would be nice to know how many of the buildings and house numbers in OSM were imported versus surveyed / drawn by hand. I have a bad feeling about how
Re: [OSM-talk] The world’s best addressable map
It was not my intention to set up a full-automatic import. I wanted to come to a automatic process where the data is made available to mappers for import. E.g. the complete tool chain used by the Dutch import could be available to other countries. So they can easily use the same programs, infrastructure, etc. They just need to provide the data to be imported. The tool chain processes the data and makes it available for download by e.g. a JOSM plugin , a task manager or whatever. From there the manual step starts (downlaod, merge + correct + upload). Hope this clarifies what my ideas are. My apologies for my ignorance, but even after looking at some video's of SOTM on what OSMF and the different working groups are doing it is still not clear to me whether there is a group that could start looking for funding such an import tool chain and infrastructure. For me, when someone states our mission is XXX', they also have to provide the resources to achieve that, or at least support people that want to work on it. So on one hand I read a mission statement and a question on how to define the new playground, but you are now saying that a question for toys on the playground should not asked at that group ? Or am I mixing people and groups ? regards m On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:59 AM, Johan C osm...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-23 8:57 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: First question: how do you build the world's best addressable map ? Through imports or survey ? Is the timeframe that Martin puts forward fur surveyed addresses acceptable and feasible ? As for the imports: Wouldn't it be great that we would have import tools that can be used by many groups ? Just as we have great editors for manual mapping. Shouldn't the OSMF (or however) invest in a procedure + tools for import ? So when a group wants to perform an import, they only have make sure the license is compatible and the data has enough quality. The process of the import is already described, the tools ( task managers, data conversion, some quality checks etc.) are in place. They deliver the data and the import can start. I have the impression that right now each group has to take all those obstacles all by themselves. Maybe I have a totally wrong perception of the import process. please correct me if that's the case. regards m I partially share your impression that each group has to take obstacles by themselves. Since OSM is a social project I think it's good that people with experience on (importing) addresses and buildings share their experience. I see this happen on the @import list, user diaries etc. The somewhat scattered knowledge around could however be shared more centralized to make it a bit more accessible, so I created a page on the wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Importing_buildings_and_addresses) in which anybody can share their knowledge (I will do so this November). Furthermore, SOTM Buenos Aires hosts 2 presentations on addresses. I don't see manual work for OSM as an obstacle. Any import (or survey :-) ) requires some manual work because the current map is far from blank, so the almost full-automatic import you describe is IMHO not possible. Though semi-automatic assistance by tools (like the wonderful Geofabrik inspector address view) help a lot keeping the work fun. As for tools: it would help when more tools for importing and updating could be programmed. As an example: I'm not aware of any tool which makes it possible to semi-automatically compare building outlines to the outlines of an updated government database, highlighting major differences in geometry. On the role of the OSMF: I think it shouldn't be the OSMF investing in a procedure + tools. It would already be great and an energizing factor when (members of) OSMF would express support for having more address and building data in OSM, be it either from surveys or from imports. Cheers, Johan On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Steve Coast suggested changing the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s best addressable map” I thought I'd separate out this into a new thread. As some backup, I attended my first SOTM-US in 2012 where Steve proposed we build an addressable map. A group of us from Seattle decided that we'd take that challenge and import addresses for Seattle. That import was completed. Here are the address related comments: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-10-22 12:15 GMT+02:00 Steve Coast st...@asklater.com: Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3 years. At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better, we would have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map ever again, and it would be people like you that made it happen. I agree with you that addressing is very important for a
