Re: [talk-au] fixme=continue nodes
Yes… your instincts are right. Just nuke it. :-) On 25/06/2013, at 12:49 PM, Andrew Elwell andrew.elw...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks I'm trying to tidy up and label some of the streets around my house (bateman) and I noticed http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1831700852 is this just a pointer node that someone left as an aide memoir? if so can I nuke it - can't see any reason otherwise for them Andrew ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Alphanumerics in Northern Territory?
Hey Mark, Good question about NT alphas. I might be able to point you the right way. I'm a member of the Aussie Highways Google group… Sam Laybutt over there (admin of the group) also runs a very good website called ozroads.com.au and he has a page dedicated to the NT alphanumerics - http://www.ozroads.com.au/NT/routenumbering/alpha/alphas.htm I'm sure he'd appreciate your updated observations too. Sam's very knowledgeable and seems happy to share info with OSMers. I can ask him on your behalf if we can use that info if you like, or feel free to join the Google group yourself and participate in the discussion over there. For NSW at least it's a great way to monitor exactly when each alpha route gets commissioned - and in many cases we can pinpoint the exact date and put it into the database as a historical reference (I've been using ref:start_date for this purpose). Ben PS - thanks for fixing up those Hume Highway issues around Casual I mentioned the other day! :-) On 11/06/2013, at 10:59 PM, Mark Pulley mrpul...@lizzy.com.au wrote: I'm just about to start my OSM edits from my recent Central Australian trip. I noticed a few signs on the Stuart Highway between Alice Springs airport and Alice Springs that had the route number A87 (and a brief glimpse of one that looked like A1!), yet all the other route numbers I saw on the Stuart Highway (between the Lasseter Highway at Erldunda and Churchills Head north of Tennant Creek) were national highway 87. Does anyone know if these are mistakes, or if this route is going to be converted to alphanumeric soon? (i.e. is it too soon to change the route numbers?) Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
On 29/05/2013, at 18:26, Michael James m.ja...@internode.on.net wrote: On 29/05/13 10:40, Ben Johnson wrote: Any thoughts on whether the completed sections of the Newcastle Inner City Bypass (now being referred to by the RMS as A37 - Newcastle Outer Ring Road) should be classified as type Motorway …? If they're calling it A37 then they're not calling it a motorway. Just like large parts of A31 and A1? :-) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Pacific Highway fixup
Just advising that an enthusiastic new user renamed all the motorway sections between Newcastle and Byron Bay as Pacific Motorway over the last couple of weeks. I contacted the user last week but had no response, so I've just fixed it up myself and reset the refs from being a mix of M1 and A1 to just plain old 1 because the alpha for this road is not scheduled to be commissioned until later in 2013. It's my understanding this road remains as Pacific Highway for the entire length between Newcastle and Byron Bay - including the Motorway grade sections. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Newcastle Inner Bypass - Motorway or not ?
Any thoughts on whether the completed sections of the Newcastle Inner City Bypass (now being referred to by the RMS as A37 - Newcastle Outer Ring Road) should be classified as type Motorway …? BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia licence change redaction recovery..
Ian, Thanks very much for doing this exercise. I agree with all the sentiments already expressed - it's so encouraging to see we bounced back so fast, and so strong, and that all our efforts have made a difference. Everyone in the project should feel very proud of what we achieved. BJ On 25/05/2013, at 9:08 PM, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: I crunched some numbers comparing AU planet extracts from today and prior to the redaction commencing. Although they were for my personal edification, I thought I'd share them. We have about 70,000 km of additional mapped unclassified and residential road now than we did before the redaction process - that is an increase in distance of about 27%. In terms of distance of named roads in this category, we're about where we were before the redaction in absolute terms. Trunk and motorways there is no significant variation. The number of kilometres of mapped road and named roads in this category is roughly unchanged. In primary, secondary, and tertiary, we've had an increase in mapped distance of 35,000km, or around 20%. Although we've seen a significant decrease in the number of secondary roads, and marked increase in the mapped km of tertiary roads. Our post-redaction remappers have a tendency towards tertiary roads, it would seem. Our length of named roads in this category is up in actual kilometres, but down on a relative basis. In paths, tracks, footways and cycleways and service roads our mapped distance is also up, We've seen huge increases in mapped tracks - closing on double what we had before. So, my summary would be that we've probably comprehensively remapped he motorways and trunk roads across the country. We've got significantly more tracks, paths and residential/unclassified roads than we had before. There would seem to be artifacts of extensive aerial remapping, with the lower percentage overall of named roads, and what I'm thinking could be a consequent tendency to underrate what passes for a secondary road in Australia. I'd also attribute greater mapping outside of urban areas to the more extensive bing imagery coverage, and possibly the focus of the redaction process on urban areas. Of course, this is all quantitative data, not qualitative. Take it for what it is. My summary is just a guess, and I can't say with any certainty that the increase in distance isn't just fence posts on the Kimberley! Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] NSW Alphanumeric Rollout Schedule
Hi all, Exciting news. The RMS has released details about the timing of the alphanumeric rollout in NSW. http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/documents/factsheets/implementation_factsheet.pdf In summary: 1. May - July 2013: Routes where the number is changing (e.g. from route 18 to B72) 2. August – November 2013: Motorways and the majority of A routes 3. Nov – Dec 2013/early 2014: All remaining A and B routes, and decommissioned routes. I summarised region-by-region which areas are in PHASE ONE between now and July - SYDNEY REGION A8 Cammeray to Mona Vale A38 Delhi Road A22 Hume Highway – City to Liverpool A36 Princes Highway A28 Wahroonga to Casula A34 Liverpool to City B59 Bells Line of Road M31 Hume Motorway (also in Stage 2) NORTHERN NSW B60 Bruxner Highway B56 Oxley Highway B51 Kamilaroi Highway B76 Gwydir Highway SOUTHERN NSW B72 Snowy Mountains Highway – Kiandra to Bega B73 Nowra to Southern Highlands B65 Bulli Tops to Port Kembla SOUTH-WEST NSW B72 Snowy Mountains Highway A41 Olympic Highway B64 Mid Western Highway WESTERN NSW B56 Oxley Highway A41 Olympic Highway B51 Kamilaroi Highway B64 Mid Western Highway B76 Gwydir Highway B55 Castlereagh Highway B59 Bells Line of Road HUNTER AND CENTRAL COAST A37 Newcastle Outer Ring Road B57 Warners Bay to Charlestown B63 Charlestown to Nelson Bay A43 Doyalson, Newcastle, Hexham A49 Kariong, Gosford to Doyalson B68 Cessnock to Newcastle B53 Morisset to Wallsend B89 Warners Bay to Kurri Kurri I think it would make sense if people can oversee specific regions. I can keep maintaining my region.. (Newcastle / Central Coast) and I can help out elsewhere too. As mentioned previously I've already created new route relations mentioned in the HUNTER CENTRAL COAST section - therefore switching on the new Refs will be a simple case of selecting all members of the relation and adding the ref tag -- and where relevant creating an old_ref - for the legacy route number, but when we do this we should keep in mind there will be cases where it's not just a simple old-for-new replacement (e.g. Central Coast Hwy A49 / SR83). I have also already created relations for M1 from Wahroonga to Beresfield, A1 from Beresfield to Byron Bay, ready for easy change of ref after August according to the schedule. During this editing I noticed some sections of A1 had already been switched on by other mappers. Also the Kempsey Bypass had been ref'd as M1 - but it's my understanding this will still be A1 so it's also in the A1 relation for updating/correction after August. BJ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Alphanumeric references in NSW
I took a look there last weekend. As you say... inconsistencies everywhere. Northbound all are M1 with B74, and there's even a distance reassurance sign (not interchange-related) showing distances to Brisbane, titled M1 Pacific Mwy which I was surprised to see. Southbound all are NR1 with B74. The signs at the top of the ramps are in odd combinations like NR1 Pacific Mwy on one sign, and M1 Freeway on another... It's a real tourist attraction for sign geeks! BJ On 09/05/2013, at 22:11, Nathan Van Der Meulen natvan...@yahoo.com wrote: You're not going to win any way you change the route references. On the ground, around the Tuggerah Interchange alone are references to Nat Route 1, M1, Pacific Motorway etc. Note that the freeway is referenced as M1 from Wyong Rd (B74) but on the freeway it's still NR1. B74 only seems to be referenced at the interchange. If you only edit as per what's on the ground, how do you edit that? Sent from my iPad On 03/05/2013, at 21:00, talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to talk-au@openstreetmap.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org You can reach the person managing the list at talk-au-ow...@openstreetmap.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Talk-au digest... Today's Topics: 1. Alphanumeric references in NSW (Ian Sergeant) 2. Re: Alphanumeric references in NSW (Ben Kelley) 3. Re: Alphanumeric references in NSW (Ian Sergeant) 4. Re: Alphanumeric references in NSW (Ben Johnson) 5. Re: Alphanumeric references in NSW (Ian Sergeant) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 15:07:02 +1000 From: Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com To: OSM - Talk-au Talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: [talk-au] Alphanumeric references in NSW Message-ID: CALDa4YLY+4KEnutrnBmjcRpE5z3G5hH4z6Yzyu=duwiw5sn...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, I've noticed a few people are changing the references in NSW to the alphanumeric references before the signage has changed. I don't see the purpose of this. I doesn't correspond to what is on the ground, it must be confusing to people actually trying to use OSM for navigation. Also, given it is the RTA coordinate this, it wouldn't be surprising if some of the routes actually differed from the proposed routes on the webpage. To the best of my knowledge the only route that has been re-referenced is the B73, the others still retain their existing signage - with perhaps an uncovered sign here and there. I traced the I'd suggest we can use the wiki to coordinate as these references change? That way we can ensure the entire route is renamed at once, rather than a patchwork? Ian. P.S. Of course there have been a few routes (M7, A31/M31 approaching Albury) that have been this way for a while, and aren't at issue here. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20130503/f593d5da/attachment-0001.html -- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 15:33:45 +1000 From: Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com To: Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com Cc: OSM - Talk-au Talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] Alphanumeric references in NSW Message-ID: CAE4-2TKPPKzjA3EE-kwfkDrH=8b-_by+h74hv3ytdgn+ajl...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi. I have seen a few A15 signs on the New England Highway, but there are still quite a few 43 and 15 signs along the route. The ground can still be a bit confusing. - Ben Kelley. On 3 May 2013 15:08, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I've noticed a few people are changing the references in NSW to the alphanumeric references before the signage has changed. I don't see the purpose of this. I doesn't correspond to what is on the ground, it must be confusing to people actually trying to use OSM for navigation. Also, given it is the RTA coordinate this, it wouldn't be surprising if some of the routes actually differed from the proposed routes on the webpage. To the best of my knowledge the only route that has been re-referenced is the B73, the others still retain their existing signage - with perhaps an uncovered sign here and there. I traced the I'd suggest we can use the wiki to coordinate as these references change? That way we can ensure the entire route is renamed at once, rather than a patchwork? Ian. P.S. Of course there have been a few routes (M7, A31/M31 approaching Albury) that have been this way for a while, and aren't at issue here
Re: [talk-au] Gates and access
Thanks Andrew, Would you apply these conditions to just the gate node, or the way, or both ? Ben On 07/05/2013, at 4:38 PM, Andrew Elwell andrew.elw...@gmail.com wrote: If someone knows of the accepted way seasonal access should be tagged, that would great, What's wrong with using the conditional restrictions http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions This field specifies the condition for which the restriction is valid. Various kinds of conditions can be distinguished. Time Date: Use the standard syntax of the opening_hours=* tag. If the time condition includes semicolons (;) the condition must be enclosed by brackets. E.g. (Mo-Fr 07:00-19:00), (sunrise-sunset) or (Jan-Mar). so access:conditional=(stuff) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Alphanumeric references in NSW
I agree this can be better coordinated, but not everyone uses or reads this list. I have a particular interest in these new routes… (don't ask). B74 is already majorly unveiled at the Tuggerah junction with M1 - so I turned B74 on in OSM. http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/Special/MAB/563.jpg http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/Special/MAB/558.jpg https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vEehFafhUeo/UWnpzpBCuNI/ALg/rKvL4389seo/s1600/IMG_3205.JPG We should expect large-scale coverplate removal any day now. RMS has been waiting until end of school holidays, and also I believe for the release of Sydway and UBD 2014 editions which apparently are now available with new route numbers… so I think we're about to see big changes fast. So brace yourselves. I'm going that way again tomorrow and will investigate B70 to see if there's any action there yet. I've created a few route relations for alphas in Central Coast and Newcastle region, but haven't set the ref tags yet until there is on-ground signage in place. This will make it easier (when the signs are unveiled) to select an entire route in JOSM and add the ref tag. If you agree with this method then I'm happy to volunteer to continue creating relations for the new routes. I have 5 weeks holidays starting soon with plenty of spare time and I want to get back into contributing to the project. What should become of the old routes? Should old_ref be retained, should old route relations remain? Regard hierachies - have we agreed that all A routes are Trunk, and all B routes are Primary? Should former the State routes (e.g. SR83 Old Pacific Hwy from Gosford to Doyalson) currently assigned as a Primary road now be lowered to Secondary as it loses its route number. Happy to help out - but I don't want to step on toes. BJ On 03/05/2013, at 3:07 PM, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I've noticed a few people are changing the references in NSW to the alphanumeric references before the signage has changed. I don't see the purpose of this. I doesn't correspond to what is on the ground, it must be confusing to people actually trying to use OSM for navigation. Also, given it is the RTA coordinate this, it wouldn't be surprising if some of the routes actually differed from the proposed routes on the webpage. To the best of my knowledge the only route that has been re-referenced is the B73, the others still retain their existing signage - with perhaps an uncovered sign here and there. I traced the I'd suggest we can use the wiki to coordinate as these references change? That way we can ensure the entire route is renamed at once, rather than a patchwork? Ian. P.S. Of course there have been a few routes (M7, A31/M31 approaching Albury) that have been this way for a while, and aren't at issue here. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Alphanumeric references in NSW
On 03/05/2013, at 9:00 PM, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: I imagine the RMS in their wisdom are going to call the Hume south of Berrima the A31, rather than M31, so we'll have to make a call on whether we keep that as motorway. I'd personally be in favour of doing so. Ian. Same also with A1 heading up the coast that are definitely motorway standard. The RMS has stated that these motorway sections won't take on an M designation until they are continuous between major population centres in order to avoid too much switching between A and M, so I think we are right to map these as Motorway in OSM - being a high standard (mostly) grade-separated road - because on the ground that's exactly what it is… but we have to live with their temporary A route designations. With respect to route relations for the M31/A31 and M1/A1, I am guessing we will need to create a relation for the A section, and a separate relation for the M section… and then perhaps a parent to encompass the entire route. Some aspects of how we treat this confuse me …. For example - name = Pacific Motorway network = M ref = M1 -- should this relationship include Harbour Tunnel to Gore Hill AND Wahroonga to Beresfield AND Brunswick Heads to Brisbane… but then what about south of the Harbour? Then make another M1 relation called Princes Motorway - adding to it the ED, Southern Cross Drv, Southern Freeway? Same confusion applies with these A sections... Or do we create a relation for each discrete section (being a contiguous A or M section)… which I personally think is the most manageable, but it leads to a patchwork of many A1 and M1 relations. And either way, then we'll need a parent relation to group them all into something perhaps name = National Highway 1 ?? network = NH ? ref = 1 ? BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] The OSM ladder
Nick… I'm not sure what you're doing, it sounds fascinating, mysterious and dangerous. I like it. Please let me know what path you're taking through Sydney so I can avoid the area completely... I don't want to crash a brand new $30m Waratah into your ladder! This info from ARTC will be handy … http://www.artc.com.au/library/GI_05_loading_restrictions.pdf Also, thank you for fixing those track sections at St Marys. Do you know what happened there? Given there was a derailment there 2 months ago, I find this a spooky co-incidence... http://hornsby-advocate.whereilive.com.au/news/story/train-delays-after-derailment-at-st-marys/ Mr Eid said the derailment was under investigation and that he believed a component from a freight train fell onto the track. …. a very large ladder, perhaps? :-) You might find this site an interesting source of tunnel information… but sadly no widths or loading gauges . http://www.nswrail.net/infrastructure/tunnel.php If you're interested in the evolution of loading gauges in NSW, I recommend a book published by the Australian Railway Historical Society called The Electrification of Sydney and Suburban Railways which explains the decision that lead to a new wide-bodied loading gauge adopted for construction of the Harbour Bridge and City Underground Railway… a bold move with ongoing repercussions today (e.g. you can't send a wide-bodied train such as an OSCAR any further west than Springwood without major and expensive modifications to the infrastructure -- so…. what happens to outer Blue Mountains train services once our narrow-bodied V-sets are eventually retired and replaced with OSCARs hmmm??). Finally… if you're confused by all these sizes, just remember it all gets back to the width of 2 horses asses. http://infobluemountains.net.au/rail/horse-ass.htm BJ On 16/10/2012, at 6:30 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: Alex wrote or a question about loading gauges that the ARTC might better answer? Yes it would be better for ARTC to answer but before I bother them I would like to know if it is at all feasable. Specifically, I am concerned that one of the tunnels between Queanbeyan and Bungendore may well be too sharp and since I'm sure it was not mapped by proper survey but just by connecting the two ends with some sort or curve, I may well have to get the object offloaded at Bungendore and trucked in from there. I'd imagine the curves should be ok for a 50 metre object but I'm not at all sure. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New Australian caching server. Feedback?
Classic. You know you've got an OSM addiction problem when... On 08/10/2012, at 0:26, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: Today I had 8 gps units in the car and 5 were logging With that density, the traces you make on some residential streets must somewhat resemble the harbour bridge. :-p. Seriously tho... great simple idea to get multi traces in one sweep if u have the devices (and they're switched on, of course)! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Gold Coast Highway
Hi Peter, I noticed the same thing in parts of Sydney (people creating new ways for a bus route). You are right the bus route probably should be set up as a relation, comprising of existing ways so maybe contact the user who created them and ask if they object to you improving on their input by making it compliant with this - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Public_transport Last year I did some work in Forster NSW with bus stops, routes, and route master relations on existing ways based upon that document. End result here - http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.18936lon=152.51765zoom=15layers=T Note the Transport layer on osm.org ignores any defined route colours. All bus routes are simply rendered as red. Looking forward to getting back up there again soon and checking out the progress on the new Gold Coast light rail project. BJ On 07/10/2012, at 16:29, Peter Watson peter.bmwk7...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I have been doing editing in the Surfers Paradise area and I have noticed that the north bound lane of the Gold Coast Hwy has 2 Ways both tagged Primary, 1 has a relation Gold Coast Highway attached but no roles defined! the other has bus route tags also. My understanding is that bus routes should be set up as a route relation for each bus route using existing ways not making new ways. Both of these ways have had many edits from many different people. Peter W ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New Australian caching server. Feedback?
This is awesome news. Thank you very much to Kris - this is very generous indeed. The responsiveness is much better! :-)) BJ On 05/10/2012, at 12:26 AM, Grant Slater wrote: OSM Australia, Have you noticed faster tiles this week? Australia now has a map caching server located in Brisbane. The server is used to speed up the standard tile.osm.org Mapnik map style. Browsing the map on http://www.openstreetmap.org/ should now be more responsive. This new server, named 'bunyip', first started providing tiles on Tuesday. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Present for keen OSMer
Great question... and timely, given I recently bought myself a few goodies from http://shop.kernelconcepts.de/index.php?cPath=22_37 I purchased one of each - the vest (note - the back of this particular vest is in German VERMESSUNG), the mug, and the pin. The order arrived quickly (less than 2 weeks)... When ordering, I did have a small issue with their online ordering system - so after placing your order you might need to email them and confirm the total with shipping... because there seemed to be a problem with the shipping to Australia... It was sorted out by email no problems, and you can just PayPal them the money. Also purchased the book: OpenStreetMap: Using and Enhancing the Free Map of the World, written by Frederik Ramm and Jochen Topf - there is an abundance of these (and other OSM books) on eBay... it's best if you also search worldwide sellers on eBay because you can generally get them cheaper from overseas (especially from the UK). It irritates me the OSMF doesn't have a shop that sells merchandise. If marketed properly, it can be another means of financial support for the project. BJ On 02/10/2012, at 10:17 AM, Alex Sims wrote: I've been asked what I might like as a present and am not sure what to ask for. I've already got a laptop with a battery that works, Garmin GPS and cheapie Android phone. Suggestions are welcome. Alex ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] NSW Alphanumeric at last..
Yay Best. News. Ever. Just saw it on Channel 9 news. I can't believe the state Labor opposition labels this a waste of money... given they endorsed it years ago and spent the last 10 years erecting road signs all over NSW with the MAB routes already on them, and covered them all with temporary cover-plates. Idiots. The 9 News report says we'll see the new names starting to appear in January, and will be complete by the end of 2013. BJ On 27/09/2012, at 3:17 PM, Ian Sergeant wrote: At last.. http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/ms-and-bs-to-make-driving-simple-as-abc-minister-20120927-26n4w.html We should be completely ready to go by March 2013, I think. Not clear how long the transition will be. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] GPS accuracy
Hi Russell, Congratulations mate. It works - I tested it under both Mac OS/X (Leopard 10.5.8), and Linux (Ubuntu 12.04.1). I reckon this will now be my favorite method to line-up background images! Only a minor thing - (on the Mac at least) your scroll wheel method didn't work for me, but I prefer to use the arrows anyway because (for me) it's a bit tricky to click/drag then use scroll wheel while still holding onto the mouse button - that's a minor thing and it might just be me. I can try the wheel again if it's important for you to know for sure... Didn't try the scroll wheel method under Ubuntu as I use the trackpad on that machine but I can connect a mouse if you want it tested. Cheers, BJ On 24/09/2012, at 1:16 AM, Russell Edwards wrote: On 22/09/12 10:20, Ben Johnson wrote: That is absolutely fantastic - cant wait to see it. BJ It should be available now if you tell JOSM to download a new plugin list. It's called GPSBlam. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/GPSBlam Please tell me it works as it was a bit of a black art getting it up into the repository! Cheers Russell ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Blocks of land - residential housing
Just on this, can someone please explain why if I search 45 Wharf Street Forster, the result I get back is 45, Wharf Street, Forster Keys, Forster, 2428, Australiahttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=152.50084899902minlat=-32.190236816406maxlon=152.52086425781maxlat=-32.170233001709 Where does it get Forster Keys from? That's an adjacent suburb to the south. On 22 September 2012 11:00, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, For fast numbering, you might want to check out the technique I tried for Wharf Street, Forster NSW. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.18045lon=152.51021zoom=17layers=M This uses the address interpolation technique. I wasn't sure at the time if I'd done it the right way because nomonatim hadn't been getting updated, but since then it has... and I can tell you it works a treat! If you search for any valid number on Wharf Street Forster it will point you there with surprising accuracy. Just draw a parallel way from corner to corner with start/end numbers and tell it whether odd or even. Very nice way to quickly make the map massively more useable. Search the wiki for more details. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 21/09/2012, at 20:41, Leathal leatha...@gmail.com wrote: Hi I was just wondering what the tagging standard is for residential housing in suburbs? I can't find anything definitive, and most of the common methods such as landuse=residential is set aside for large scale areas (which is correct IMO). So, I was just wondering if there is some kind of standard that everyone is using? Or if anyone is using at all? I just don't like this method of numbers only: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-19.295319lon=146.71811zoom=18layers=M Any help appreciated. :) Leathal. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Why do they never cancel buses and put on trains? /_TANGARARAMA_\../_TANGARARAMA_\ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 63, Issue 28
Hi Paul, The interpolation way opposite Blows Lane is split (see break from 25-27 at level 18). The walkway there is an open footpath between two distinct properties, whereas the walkway marked opposite Commonwealth Bank is actually an indoor arcade (needs better tagging e.g. covered) and hence I did not split the numbering here because the arcade itself is a property with its own number. There's some strangeness with the nominatim search results and the way it confuses the town/suburb/village John Henderson is on the right track - it's something to do with the Town/Suburb/Village hierarchy. I suspect it's a Nominatim issue. It's probably less noticeable in a metropolitan area where everything is a suburb. BJ On 23/09/2012, at 11:30 AM, Paul HAYDON wrote: Hey Ben, Nice example. I reckon it's worth mentioning the numbers at Blower's Lane (although on the opposite side of the street) - undoubtedly numbering in this fashion will assist with routing. It's probably been covered in the Wiki, and most likely in this forum previously, but worthy of pointing out again, nonetheless. Great job! Cheers, Paul. Hi, For fast numbering, you might want to check out the technique I tried for Wharf Street, Forster NSW. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.18045lon=152.51021zoom=17layers=M This uses the address interpolation technique. I wasn't sure at the time if I'd done it the right way because nomonatim hadn't been getting updated, but since then it has... and I can tell you it works a treat! If you search for any valid number on Wharf Street Forster it will point you there with surprising accuracy. Just draw a parallel way from corner to corner with start/end numbers and tell it whether odd or even. Very nice way to quickly make the map massively more useable. Search the wiki for more details. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] GPS accuracy
That is absolutely fantastic - cant wait to see it. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 21/09/2012, at 12:20, Russell Edwards russ...@edwds.net wrote: Hi all, On this topic -- for what it's worth I have written a JOSM plugin to help with GPS accuracy in the case of having multiple tracks covering the same . You can highlight a set of GPX tracks along a straight path (or taken from a fixed position) and it will a) average them all to find their geometric centre and b) find the direction of maximum variation, to find the likely direction of the path along which they were recorded. I hope to have it available within the next week or two. You should get an accuracy improvement factor of equal to or greater than the square root of the number of tracks. When you have dozens or hundreds of tracks on the same paths, as I do (logs from my runs around town), then it should be a great help in pinning down any offset in the imagery (and potentially, rotation, too). Russell ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Blocks of land - residential housing
Hi, For fast numbering, you might want to check out the technique I tried for Wharf Street, Forster NSW. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.18045lon=152.51021zoom=17layers=M This uses the address interpolation technique. I wasn't sure at the time if I'd done it the right way because nomonatim hadn't been getting updated, but since then it has... and I can tell you it works a treat! If you search for any valid number on Wharf Street Forster it will point you there with surprising accuracy. Just draw a parallel way from corner to corner with start/end numbers and tell it whether odd or even. Very nice way to quickly make the map massively more useable. Search the wiki for more details. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 21/09/2012, at 20:41, Leathal leatha...@gmail.com wrote: Hi I was just wondering what the tagging standard is for residential housing in suburbs? I can't find anything definitive, and most of the common methods such as landuse=residential is set aside for large scale areas (which is correct IMO). So, I was just wondering if there is some kind of standard that everyone is using? Or if anyone is using at all? I just don't like this method of numbers only: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-19.295319lon=146.71811zoom=18layers=M Any help appreciated. :) Leathal. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Fwd: iPhone OSM street naming apps
Forgot to cc below in case anyone else is following. Begin forwarded message: From: Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com Date: 17 September 2012 3:24:28 AEST To: Brett Russell brussell...@live.com.au Subject: Re: [talk-au] iPhone OSM street naming apps Brett, For real time OSM editing on the iPhone I have played around with iLOE ... but it's clumsy. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ILOE There's a list of editors/platforms here - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editors Another thing you can try is iPhone's voice memo - often I will just talk the names (and other things) into the phone. Spelling them out really helps. For playback, your voice memos end up in the playlist section of iTunes next time you sync - or if you can't be bothered with that, just play them back on your phone. Then you partake in a fun game with yourself where you try to enter everything without pausing the playback... BJ On 16/09/2012, at 6:04 PM, Brett Russell wrote: Hi Might have asked this question before but maybe something has come. Has anyone used an iPhone app to name streets on the ground with OSM. My memory, spelling and note taking rather average so be good to have ability to read from the sign and enter this directly into OSM. Cheers Brett Russell PO Box 94 Launceston Tas. 7250 Australia 0419 374 971 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Getting is right
On 12/09/2012, at 2:45 AM, Richard Weait wrote: Individual OSM contributors have approached dozens (or perhaps hundreds, now) of governments from tiny to big and found success. They've also found some regressive governments, but hey, we won't know until we try. Good luck. I've been wanting to contact my own local government about OSM-related matters, but what to say about the license? Do I tell them it's CC-BY-SA, only to cause them confusion when it changes... or make me look like an idiot when they visit the website in the next X days and see that it is something different... or confuse them by saying it's CC-BY-SA right now, but it's going to change to ODbL at some unknown point... Hence I've delayed a lot of such communication (for MONTHS now). Another example - I have a friend doing tertiary studies who had to use content from the internet and explain in his assignment why it was not breaching copyright law to use it. I initially thought OSM would be great for such an assignment, but then reconsidered because he may claim in the assignment that the data is CC-BY-SA, but if/when the teacher goes to check it all out -- for all we know by then it will have changed to ODbL... then he's marked down as a result of giving inaccurate information. These are real practical uncertainties of this license limbo period. Hopefully we can move ahead with certainty very soon. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Misaligned streets OSM or Bing wrong? - use survey mark?
On 01/09/2012, at 16:58, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 September 2012 11:35, Russell Edwards russell...@gmail.com wrote: I am still curious to know what the positional accuracy of survey markers is meant to be, if anyone can enlighten. First question you have to ask is how old the survey is? Australia as a whole moves north about 7-8 cm a year (from memory), so a 12-13 year old survey has moved about a metre from the start spot. It's a moving target. Survey markers stay pretty accurate in relation to everything around them, but not necessarily in relation to some outside measuring source like GPS. Well THAT brings up some very interesting long-term macro considerations for our project. We are going to need to move EVERYTHING from time to time! But it won't be quite that simple, because it depends on when each individual node was last positioned. The older the node, the more adjustment it will need. And different land masses move at different rates, so i guess some kind of continental drift bot would be applied to local regions as needed. Japan is one place that comes to mind where shifts are more noticeable. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-03-13/news/29142893_1_geographical-survey-institute-tectonic-plate-axis I think we need to ask if providers of aerial imagery account for such shifts? I suspect they simply align their images to (outdated?) on-ground survey points. I see OSM as forever, and it will become more accurate as technology allows. Continental drift will become an accuracy issue sooner than we think! But an even bigger error can be caused by using different projections. I forget which one OSM uses, but using different projections can move a given point 20m quite easily, and a survey marker may well be on a different one. Can we get a definitive answer on this? (From memory) I have to use the Merkator projection in JOSM for my circles to appear circular in OSM. It was a little unsettling because it wasn't the JOSM default back when I first installed it anyway. BJ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Misaligned streets OSM or Bing wrong? - use survey mark?
Hi Russell, Welcome aboard. Just my thoughts... For a newbie, you've made some very astute observations about the accuracy of the aerial imagery, so thanks for giving it the degree of thought - because many others just dive in and start tracing without understanding these subtleties. You're absolutely correct. Its quite normal for Bing (and others) to be off by 10m or so, but in other areas it's very accurate. It differs all over the place. Whatever editing tool you're using (Potlatch, JOSM, etc..), should give you the ability to align your background imagery. Just be aware the further you move away from the area you have aligned, the more likely the alignment will need another adjustment. JOSM allows you bookmark such alignments. I have a bookmark for my home town. But the danger of bookmarking your aerial alignment is that if Bing updates their imagery, your bookmarked alignment will probably no longer apply. Just something to keep in mind. Your known survey mark is definitely an excellent start. You can make a node in OSM to those exact coordinates, then align your background imagery so the location of the survey mark in Bing aligns to your OSM node. I would not rely on other people's OSM edits on which to base your alignment. You don't know how accurate or inaccurate they are. Your survey mark is the best way, and the GPS traces. Are you aware you can upload and share your GPS traces (in your profile section), and you can view all the uploaded traces while editing? This is great for aligning the background image. Depending where you live, you might have some major roads in your area which already have lots of traces. If so, that's great - try and find a couple of busy intersections to align and you should get a good alignment. Otherwise you can try walking around a block several times, or around a park, or around a roundabout many many times (if you see men in white coming to get you... Run!) Another method is to use a fixed point - and approach it from different angles like cross hairs to a target. As far as GPX averaging goes, I'm personally not familiar with anything that does this, but this list has some very talented people who can help or point you in the right direction. I find software averaging is not necessary because if you look at the traces visually you'll immediately get a very good idea from their density when they're all presented together (eg if you look at the traces on a busy dual carriageway motorway you'll very easily see an average for each carriageway). In built up areas you just need to be mindful of whether traces originate from cyclists, motorists, or pedestrians... and apply a degree of commonsense. I'm not sure if software can possibly distinguish between a set of traces from a roadway, and another set of traces from an adjacent walkway / cycleway - in such cases an average is meaningless. As far as tweaking other people's edits... if you're confident with your accuracy, I'd just do it. But if you want to take a more cautious approach you can contact the original editor and ask whether they mind you tweaking - or at least ask what method they used to position their nodes and let them know you can make it more accurate for them. Keep in mind there are many inactive users who move onto other hobbies after a while - so if you don't hear back from somebody after a reasonable time, consider it fair game to change it. Again, well done for going through this thought process, and welcome! BJ Sent from my iPhone On 01/09/2012, at 8:11, Russell Edwards russell...@gmail.com wrote: Hello -- brand new user here, please be patient :). I am trying to improve OSM in my home town. I notice that many/most OSM ways are approx 5-10 m west of where Bing has them. Most either have nearmap or nothing as a source. There are no GPS tracks to download. I could make some but they're usually in (random) error by about the same amount anyway. I tried to check against the coordinates given for a survey mark in town, through http://services.land.vic.gov.au/maps/lassi.jsp (with conversion to lat/lon with http://www.gracode.com/mapgrids.php ) ... this also had the Bing map out by about 10 m... but southward! Help! Three inconsistent systems - Bing, OSM and the survey mark. Which if any should I trust at the 1-m level? Is there a tool for averaging GPS tracks? There are roads I have run along dozens of times with a GPS track for every run. Maybe with averaging it could get to the 1m level of accuracy. (Yeah yeah, don't sweat the small stuff... I just can't stand seeing streets running through people's front gardens...) Thanks in advance Russell ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Re: [talk-au] Misaligned streets OSM or Bing wrong? - use survey mark?
Russell, Found this on a search. This might be your answer to average your tracks - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Average_tracks Sent from my iPhone On 01/09/2012, at 11:35, Russell Edwards russell...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks everyone for the replies. I have imported over 250 GPX traces from my running log, boy does that slow JOSM down. It seems Bing may be offset but having 100+ traces on some paths it is all just a big wide blob of grey. Still, the blob is offset. I might try and cobble together a tool to average them, in my non-existent spare time. Shouldn't be too hard for straight line paths (famous last words). BJ - yep I would love to dive in, already have -- but would hate to spend hours editing only to later realise I need to painstakingly go through and fix everything I've already done! I am still curious to know what the positional accuracy of survey markers is meant to be, if anyone can enlighten. On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Ian Sergeant ina...@gmail.com wrote: Agree with everything that Ben said. In addition, you may like to check the AGRI imagery. If the Bing and AGRI imagery align exactly, chances are you have well aligned Bing imagery. If the AGRI imagery aligns well with traces, it is easy enough to shift the Bing background to align with AGRI, and go from there. It may be an idea if you trace from bing offset, to mark that as your source, i.e source=bing (offset). That way people coming after you know what you've done. Ian. On 1 September 2012 09:53, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Russell, Welcome aboard. Just my thoughts... For a newbie, you've made some very astute observations about the accuracy of the aerial imagery, so thanks for giving it the degree of thought - because many others just dive in and start tracing without understanding these subtleties. You're absolutely correct. Its quite normal for Bing (and others) to be off by 10m or so, but in other areas it's very accurate. It differs all over the place. Whatever editing tool you're using (Potlatch, JOSM, etc..), should give you the ability to align your background imagery. Just be aware the further you move away from the area you have aligned, the more likely the alignment will need another adjustment. JOSM allows you bookmark such alignments. I have a bookmark for my home town. But the danger of bookmarking your aerial alignment is that if Bing updates their imagery, your bookmarked alignment will probably no longer apply. Just something to keep in mind. Your known survey mark is definitely an excellent start. You can make a node in OSM to those exact coordinates, then align your background imagery so the location of the survey mark in Bing aligns to your OSM node. I would not rely on other people's OSM edits on which to base your alignment. You don't know how accurate or inaccurate they are. Your survey mark is the best way, and the GPS traces. Are you aware you can upload and share your GPS traces (in your profile section), and you can view all the uploaded traces while editing? This is great for aligning the background image. Depending where you live, you might have some major roads in your area which already have lots of traces. If so, that's great - try and find a couple of busy intersections to align and you should get a good alignment. Otherwise you can try walking around a block several times, or around a park, or around a roundabout many many times (if you see men in white coming to get you... Run!) Another method is to use a fixed point - and approach it from different angles like cross hairs to a target. As far as GPX averaging goes, I'm personally not familiar with anything that does this, but this list has some very talented people who can help or point you in the right direction. I find software averaging is not necessary because if you look at the traces visually you'll immediately get a very good idea from their density when they're all presented together (eg if you look at the traces on a busy dual carriageway motorway you'll very easily see an average for each carriageway). In built up areas you just need to be mindful of whether traces originate from cyclists, motorists, or pedestrians... and apply a degree of commonsense. I'm not sure if software can possibly distinguish between a set of traces from a roadway, and another set of traces from an adjacent walkway / cycleway - in such cases an average is meaningless. As far as tweaking other people's edits... if you're confident with your accuracy, I'd just do it. But if you want to take a more cautious approach you can contact the original editor and ask whether they mind you tweaking - or at least ask what method they used to position their nodes and let them know you can make it more accurate for them. Keep in mind there are many inactive users who move onto
Re: [talk-au] redaction cleanup - unusual water feature
I'd join up the existing nodes if possible. South-East Queensland has many of these canal systems in residential areas. Take a look at the Gold Coast region for some tips if you want examples - http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-28.0229lon=153.4144zoom=14layers=M Miami in Florida might be another place to reference for such features. BJ Sent from my iPad On 25/08/2012, at 4:21, Chris Barham cbar...@pobox.com wrote: Hi, I'm working on the post redaction checks from the rebuild server at http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/29 And I'm a bit confused by this: http://osm.org/go/ueHoaPP9-- If you look at Bing imagery for this location it is composed of some sort of inland harbour/marina/coastline/water feature which had previously been mapped (rather elegantly too by the look of it), from Nearmap as source. Post redaction there are the outline nodes left,and I'm was wondering how to go about reinstating this coastline/water? Join up the existing nodes? Start again? What tags? Cheers, Chas ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] School Zones
Nick, That sign makes too much common sense. If adopted in NSW, they would need to put ankle bracelets on all children so the speed cameras sense a child's proximity. Let's not give them any ideas. :-) BJ On 24/08/2012, at 7:25 AM, Nick Hocking wrote: Ben wrote Does anyone else have thoughts about school zones Hi Ben, In South Australia, I've seen school zone signs that say Max 20 KPH, when children are present Now - that's going to be hard to tag :-) Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Use of equals symbol within keys
Was recently browsing OSM Inspector and it was throwing up a warning about some tags that had been used on parts of the F3 because an equals symbol appears in the key. Specifically these source:bicycle=no = http://www.bicycleinfo.nsw.gov.au/downloads/hornsby.pdf source:cycleway=no = http://www.bicycleinfo.nsw.gov.au/downloads/hornsby.pdf See http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=tagginglon=151.17082lat=-33.60765zoom=15 As a person with some coding experience, I find this use of = inside a key slightly disturbing, as = is the separator between a key and a value, plus this method requires duplication of the root element's original value. I'm thinking the 2 keys are better written simply like source:bicycle = http://www.bicycleinfo.nsw.gov.au/downloads/hornsby.pdf source:cycleway = http://www.bicycleinfo.nsw.gov.au/downloads/hornsby.pdf I draw a comparison with use of source:xyz elsewhere - e.g. for speeds, names, etc... where we adopt this convention - maxspeed = 110 source:maxspeed = sign and not... maxspeed = 110 source:maxspeed=110 = sign There's very little in the wiki about use of = in a key, but it gets a brief mention toward the bottom of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like Cheers, BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] maxspeed - best practice?
On 14/08/2012, at 16:44, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, a) The thing is, if you don't tag maxspeed=50, then how do tell a residential road that is known to be maxspeed=50, against one that is just un-surveyed, and might be maxspeed=30,40 or 60? Yes... always the exceptions that create the mountain of work! c) source:maxspeed=sign is clearly correct if there is a sign. If you've surveyed around an area, and there isn't a sign, personally I'd tag source:maxspeed=survey. The alternative here, would be source:maxspeed=default or some such, but given our history of tagging site unseen. It I think this is best avoided. Same goes for source=implied for the same reason. If you've visited and determined the speed limit, it is a survey. maxspeed=local_knowledge if you drive around the residential streets in your area all the time, and you just know they are all 50km/h. That's a tidy differentiation between sign, survey and local_knowledge. I've sometimes struggled with the differences. From now on I'll refer back to this! We need to get this onto the wiki. On the subject of tagging site unseen... you brought up a perfectly legit point about routers and efforts made in the past to assist routing engines. I'm just trying to get a sense where our community stands in relation to maxspeed tagging site unseen, for residential streets, and how we identify such tagging. Im thinking one of these might serve that purpose... source:maxspeed=default source:maxspeed=unconfirmed source:maxspeed=fixme source:maxspeed=presumed It would be a stop-gap measure to assist routing engines, and we can later use such tagging to flag areas needing proper survey. And then there's the aspect that once something is surveyed, it needs periodic review ... but that's a whole new consideration. Just an aside, a simple case study in presumptions. Probably the most popular OSM open source router is OSRM. The speedprofiles for that project you can see here https://github.com/DennisOSRM/Project-OSRM/blob/master/speedprofile.ini Thanks. I knew this existed somewhere... but had no idea it was using 25! Clearly there's too many exceptions and unknowns - even if the profile was on a country-by-country basis, we have layers of government authorities wanting to set their own rules and it's forever changing. BJ I believe OSRM will use a maxspeed on a street if it finds one, so once you start marking maxspeeds it makes sense to mark others around them, otherwise a maxspeed=40 road will become a preferred road over other residentials and secondaries. I'm sure the motivation for tagging all residentials as maxspeed=50 was partly an attempt to address this issue. Of course, there is a good argument for this being fixed in OSRM, or in post-processing the AU data, etc. Ian. On 14 August 2012 15:30, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: In regards to residential areas - I remember last year there was some talk about the bot that added 50 with the (incorrect) maxspeed:source key = default residential speed limit in Australia and I think there was consensus in the local community that this was a mistake. With remapping some of my local areas, I'm now curious what's best practice in Australia is for tagging maxspeed on residential streets. Specifically... a) is it even necessary or desirable to explicitly define maxspeed for every residential way - or should we just presume any highway=residential is maxspeed=50, unless otherwise stated? b) if presumptions do exist, should 50 zones on tertiary and unclassified ways be explictly tagged ? c) if tagging maxspeed on every street, in respect to source... does a simple source:maxspeed=sign suffice for the general area or only for the specific way on which the sign is placed? I notice these residential 50 speed signs are often on tertiary streets, or gateway points into general residential areas. Side-streets obviously share the 50 limit, but are mostly not signposted. Do we need a new standard source value like source:maxspeed=implied for the side streets ? Sorry if I'm re-covering old ground - I'm just not sure where it was left... if anywhere! Thanks in advance.. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] maxspeed - best practice?
Hi John, I really like this, but I think your source:maxspeed=AU:urban below is a typo. It would be simply maxspeed=AU:urban Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Could this be our default (site-unseen) for residential streets - or is this an across-the-board solution and we combine it with a source:maxspeed tag of some form to determine whether site-unseen or surveyed. John - as for the Wiki, I agree with you, a lot of Aussie stuff needs to be in the Wiki, and following global standards if they exist. A lot of useful stuff gets discussed in here, but I believe the bulk of contributors do not subscribe to talk-au. They probably don't know or care about list. They use JOSM / Potlatch presets as an editing guide - failing that, they fall back on the Wiki and the Help Centre for clarification. I see a useful role for talk-au to be a melting pot for ideas and local policies that should be disseminated via the Australian sections of the Wiki but, who has the time and motivation to take on this task is another matter!!! BJ Sent from my iPad On 14/08/2012, at 16:52, John Berkers be...@ozemail.com.au wrote: I was looking into this some time ago as well. The standard in other parts of the world, according to the wiki, for default speed limits is to tag like: source:maxspeed=AU:urban If there is a sign designating the speed limit, the wiki indicates it should always be tagged source:maxspeed=sign If there are markings on the road: source:maxspeed=markings I know that, in Victoria at least, all areas other than urban/residential are either sign-posted or have road markings. My view is that, where possible, we should use a similar standard to what is use around the world for this. I don't think it is particularly helpful to use a long, descriptive string like default residential speed limit in Australia since it is intended for use primarily by a routing application a map renderer. Perhaps it is time to add Australia to the list of countries on: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed Does anyone else have a point of view on this with respect to Australia? Regards, John Berkers On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: In regards to residential areas - I remember last year there was some talk about the bot that added 50 with the (incorrect) maxspeed:source key = default residential speed limit in Australia and I think there was consensus in the local community that this was a mistake. With remapping some of my local areas, I'm now curious what's best practice in Australia is for tagging maxspeed on residential streets. Specifically... a) is it even necessary or desirable to explicitly define maxspeed for every residential way - or should we just presume any highway=residential is maxspeed=50, unless otherwise stated? b) if presumptions do exist, should 50 zones on tertiary and unclassified ways be explictly tagged ? c) if tagging maxspeed on every street, in respect to source... does a simple source:maxspeed=sign suffice for the general area or only for the specific way on which the sign is placed? I notice these residential 50 speed signs are often on tertiary streets, or gateway points into general residential areas. Side-streets obviously share the 50 limit, but are mostly not signposted. Do we need a new standard source value like source:maxspeed=implied for the side streets ? Sorry if I'm re-covering old ground - I'm just not sure where it was left... if anywhere! Thanks in advance.. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] maxspeed - best practice?
It's part of a traffic zone proposal. It derives values based on the country and type of zone. It looks like it can be an effective way to define an entire set of tags that should apply consistently across a group of ways (eg a method for all ways in a defined built-up area to share a common set of key/values including maxspeed, and other rules). http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trafficzone#Examples and bottom of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed#Implicit_maxspeeds_set_by_.22trafficzone.22_and_.22highway.22 I guess the danger with this again is presumptions!!! This may not be the best solution, but it ties in with the whole definition of built-up areas and the laws that are associated with them... and seems to be an elegant way to tag an area consistently. BJ Sent from my iPad On 15/08/2012, at 2:51, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: On 15/08/12 02:26, Ben Johnson wrote: I really like this, but I think your source:maxspeed=AU:urban below is a typo. It would be simply maxspeed=AU:urban The problem is that AU:urban isn't numeric. It isn't a speed at all. John ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] maxspeed - best practice?
In regards to residential areas - I remember last year there was some talk about the bot that added 50 with the (incorrect) maxspeed:source key = default residential speed limit in Australia and I think there was consensus in the local community that this was a mistake. With remapping some of my local areas, I'm now curious what's best practice in Australia is for tagging maxspeed on residential streets. Specifically... a) is it even necessary or desirable to explicitly define maxspeed for every residential way - or should we just presume any highway=residential is maxspeed=50, unless otherwise stated? b) if presumptions do exist, should 50 zones on tertiary and unclassified ways be explictly tagged ? c) if tagging maxspeed on every street, in respect to source... does a simple source:maxspeed=sign suffice for the general area or only for the specific way on which the sign is placed? I notice these residential 50 speed signs are often on tertiary streets, or gateway points into general residential areas. Side-streets obviously share the 50 limit, but are mostly not signposted. Do we need a new standard source value like source:maxspeed=implied for the side streets ? Sorry if I'm re-covering old ground - I'm just not sure where it was left... if anywhere! Thanks in advance.. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Great checking/fixing progress
The Sydney-Newcastle coastal corridor is now 100% done! It's particularly great to see the inner Newcastle area bounce back - this region was anhialated by the redaction. There's still much validation, road hierarchy, and relation fixing to be done. The pace of Sydney's repair is really picking up now too. Theres something almost magical to see the map has the ability to repair itself so fast. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 31/07/2012, at 14:46, waldo000...@gmail.com waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: Hey, I'll be back in the country in August, looking forward to helping out in Brisbane. Nice job so far :-) On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: I'm amazed at the progress being made in some regions as per the task manager at http://rebuild.poole.ch/ Brisbane-Gold Coast - http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/29 (10% checked / fixed) Sydney Basin - http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/8 (27% checked / fixed) Sydney-Newcastle coastal strip - http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/9 (83% checked / fixed) We are going to need a few validators. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Great checking/fixing progress
Richard, Similar counter problems with my account (Map Star). I got up to about 60-something, dropped back to 1, and remained at 1 for ages (did many many tasks and stayed on 1),... and I think I eventually made it up to 2. The tracking of the tasks themselves didn't seem to be an issue, just the personal counters. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 03/08/2012, at 7:03, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: The Sydney-Newcastle coastal corridor is now 100% done! It's particularly great to see the inner Newcastle area bounce back - this region was anhialated by the redaction. There is a potential problem with that task. I'm credited with 400 areas on that task, but I've only done a handful. http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/9#users Not sure where the extra 400-ish came from. I've reported this to Simon and Simon is in discussion with the devs to figure out what happened. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Great checking/fixing progress
I'm amazed at the progress being made in some regions as per the task manager at http://rebuild.poole.ch/ Brisbane-Gold Coast - http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/29 (10% checked / fixed) Sydney Basin - http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/8 (27% checked / fixed) Sydney-Newcastle coastal strip - http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/9 (83% checked / fixed) We are going to need a few validators. BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] mapping Sydney, etc with Tasking Server
Now there's 11... I love this. Thank you Simon! This concept removes a lot of indecision. My only question is - when is it safe to click the Done button? Is it just for the definition and connection of the geometry of streets and major features, etc.. ? I just marked an area as Done, but there's unnamed streets. BJ On 28/07/2012, at 11:44 PM, Richard Weait wrote: The tasking server allows mappers to select an area to map. Others can see which areas have been mapped and which have not. The goal being increased coordination and reduced duplication. There are several mapping tasks currently, including Sydney, kindly hosted by Simon Poole. http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/8 I see that ten users are mapping in Sydney with the tasking server, in addition to the others mapping freestyle. :-) I find the tasking server helpful in focusing my efforts. I take my assigned area, open it in an editor with the links that are provided, then edit. The workflow burden of the tasking server is to provide a comment when you complete each area. Give it a try. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] mapping Sydney, etc with Tasking Server
Perfect... I'll keep plugging away in the Sydney-Newcastle coastal region. And good work Simon for your edits in the Umina Beach area a couple of hours ago. I live in Gosford (just up the road)... I'll go back over these regions and tidy up the road hierarchy based on my local knowledge. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 29/07/2012, at 8:46, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Well since this is mainly for armchair mappers that don't have an easy way of verifying street names, I would suggest simply tracing as good as possible (no houses for now :-)) so that we get a road network back. Even if we have a majority of roads without names in some places, we can route still to those that have retained them. Setting the tile to Done avoids another mapper going over it again just looking for stuff to trace. The system allows for a 2nd pass verfication pass which could be used for adding names and other stuff from the locals. In any case in the end I suspect we will all be using either the no-name OSMI layer ir something similar. Simon Am 28.07.2012 22:02, schrieb Ben Johnson: Now there's 11... I love this. Thank you Simon! This concept removes a lot of indecision. My only question is - when is it safe to click the Done button? Is it just for the definition and connection of the geometry of streets and major features, etc.. ? I just marked an area as Done, but there's unnamed streets. BJ On 28/07/2012, at 11:44 PM, Richard Weait wrote: The tasking server allows mappers to select an area to map. Others can see which areas have been mapped and which have not. The goal being increased coordination and reduced duplication. There are several mapping tasks currently, including Sydney, kindly hosted by Simon Poole. http://rebuild.poole.ch/job/8 I see that ten users are mapping in Sydney with the tasking server, in addition to the others mapping freestyle. :-) I find the tasking server helpful in focusing my efforts. I take my assigned area, open it in an editor with the links that are provided, then edit. The workflow burden of the tasking server is to provide a comment when you complete each area. Give it a try. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Getting back into it
Working on Sydney-Newcastle at the moment... things are missing all over the place. I'm less confident remapping railways outside the areas in which I have personal experience (eg Melbourne-Sydney) especially where there is a lack of clear aerial imagery... but I'll keep plugging away. BJ Sent from my iPad On 23/07/2012, at 20:00, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ben, Great to hear it. I think a fair bit of the Melbourne-Sydney rail line has been lost - last I checked, anyway. Steve On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:03 AM, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Just re-introducing myself... This is Ben from the Central Coast (NSW). I've been off the grid for a while... some of you might remember I'm a Sydney-based train driver, and I re-mapped most of Sydney's rail network before the redaction... it took weeks of solid work and I burnt myself out in the process and lost interest in the whole thing. But i have been quietly lurking and watching in horror as the redaction progressed. I now feel i need to get back into it. If nobody else is doing it, I'm going to try fixing up Hawkesbury River this week... I like Paul Haydon's suggestion of a hierarchy of priorities and maybe staring by focusing attention on major waterways and arterial roads... so that's the approach I'm going to take... but I'm going to mix the approach with maintaining a focus on the local areas and features I know best. BJ Sent from my iPad ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Getting back into it
Hi all, Just re-introducing myself... This is Ben from the Central Coast (NSW). I've been off the grid for a while... some of you might remember I'm a Sydney-based train driver, and I re-mapped most of Sydney's rail network before the redaction... it took weeks of solid work and I burnt myself out in the process and lost interest in the whole thing. But i have been quietly lurking and watching in horror as the redaction progressed. I now feel i need to get back into it. If nobody else is doing it, I'm going to try fixing up Hawkesbury River this week... I like Paul Haydon's suggestion of a hierarchy of priorities and maybe staring by focusing attention on major waterways and arterial roads... so that's the approach I'm going to take... but I'm going to mix the approach with maintaining a focus on the local areas and features I know best. BJ Sent from my iPad ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
+1 Nick, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this and I trust your judgement. I think removing the boundaries sooner rather than later will make the remapping effort easier, and spreading the pain across a few blows now is better than waiting for a knockout hit on April 1st. Cheers, Ben On 02/02/2012, at 11:49, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, It sounds like your way further down this line of thought/implementation than me. I'm happy to drop any objection, and keep my fingers crossed for a good result. Looking forward to any data you can produce from your analysis. Thanks, Ian. On 2 February 2012 10:46, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: Ian wrote Do you want me to try this on a small area (like Canberra :-) to see if it gives the desired results? Yes - you could try but I've beaten you to it. A couple of weeks ago I spent a lot of time and an awfull lot of downloading in JOSM to find and destroy all the V1 boundaries. I think there is now only the state boundary left (level 4) and I'm sure I busted that one as well by mistake. It was tedious work and very easy to destroy good roads that are very close to the boundaries. Having done this I could then start remapping (well after removing some obscuring power lines and footpaths that I will have to remap later). Out in the rural areas it can take up to 10 minutes just to download and destroy a single long boundary. There are about 15,000 that need removal. I do think that if people see a lot of red disappear and then know that anything that is left that is red is worth working on, then maybe remapping will start in earnest. Also mass deletion of v1 (virgin) boundaries will have the benefit that if you see a boundary then you will know that it either is containing some good info that may be reclaimable, or that some good stuff is hiding underneath and may be salvagable. I will also endeavour to find a way to visualise or at least easily locate those non v1 boundaries that have a road/river/railroad or runway mixed in or have been glued to them so that we can easily see if we can recover any clean information and maybe completely remap with BIng landsat etc. I need to remove all v1 boundaries between here and Adelaide and all of south eastern NSW. I'm not adept at bulk adds/deletes etc and would really like the DWG to do it and get it right. Also this would reduce load on the servers which I am giving a fair hammering, looking at history etc Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] Use of SOTM logo / web site design
On 22/01/2012, at 9:19, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: Hi, Should OpenMobileMap http://www.openmobilemap.org/ be using the SOTM 09/10 logo and web site design? I don't think so. I'd contact them about it but there is no way to do that on the web site that I can find. Does anyone know who's behind this site? A whois on the domain turns up this: Tech Email: threesea...@yahoo.com No guarantee but worth a try. Toby Failing that try their web host - mjzhosting.info which redirects to http://www.mjzhosting.net/main.php, which has changed names to http://holeinthewallhosting.com/ To quote their homepage: Hole in the Wall Hosting is to web hosting as the lively restaurant in that pre-gentrified area of the city is to good taste in food — we probably even charge around the same! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Geocaching.com moved to OSM (partly)
A nice side effect could be to further promote OSM within the geocaching community. Potentially this should bring in addtional mappers as the entrance hurdle for geocachers should not be too high: They have GPS units, go outdoors and are typically technically rather savy... Michael (user Ohr) That's exactly how I ended up here. I heard about OSM on a geocaching podcast back in 2008. Geocachers are gps-savvy adventurists who love contributing their knowledge of places and routes, many are map geeks by nature, so OSM is a perfect complement to their hobby. OSM input by expert cachers = better maps on geocaching.com, a symbiotic relationship. Likewise, any OSMers who haven't heard of geocaching may want to give it a go and add a bit of fun to their mapping expeditions. BJ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Offtopic: A vision of America's roads
Very interesting. It shows that this style of simplified system map is far superior to convey route and network information. Back in 1984 we visited Los Angeles and my parents bought a fold out map of the region, and on the reverse side was a colour-coded freeway system map in this same style, with exits, interchanges, and symbols to indicate which turns were possible. I wish I'd have kept it. Now I'm grown up and drive trains around Sydney... and rail system maps are all a part of my daily work. :-) Thanks for sharing. Ben Sent from my iPhone On 09/01/2012, at 5:48, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: The Economist pays tribute to a map of America's roads in the style of a subway (tube) map: http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/01/maps?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/visionofamericasroads -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] Back in editing - Tracks and 4wd areas
On 06/01/2012, at 12:27 AM, David Findlay wrote: On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 06:34:28 PM Andrew Harvey wrote: Certainly not disdained upon, although I would prefer tracing imagery for areas with accurate high-res imagery like nearmap, the GPS tracks are still most welcome, especially so in other areas. I generally reserve highway=track for ways wide enough for a car to traverse, and as per the wiki are Roads for agricultural use, gravel roads in the forest etc. If they are only wide enough for walking or cycling I would use highway=path. I thought foot, bicycle, motorcycle, motorcar = no was for where it is signed as not allowed rather than you would find it difficult to traverse in a... So for instance I've just added a track in Freshwater National Park. It's designated as a walking trail, but is really a 4wd track with a gate at the end. So I've added it as a Track, but tagged no motorcycle or motorcar, but said foot and bicycle yes. Sounds correct? In another area the tracks are often again wide enough for 4wd's, but fences prevent vehicular access so I've made them paths? Thanks, David Gated gravel tracks in national parks wide enough for vehicles are often both Fire Trails and Park Management roads that can be used by NPWS vehicles. These tracks often are also designated public walking/ cycling trails. I've come across access=forestry ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access ) for forestry management purposes but not sure about emergency services. Can we come up with a common set of tags for such tracks that will - * allow forestry management access * allow emergency service access * allow pedestrian and bicycle access * prevent general motor vehicle / motorcycle access Also - do we do this at the gate, or apply access to the section of the way itself ? BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say
these to display their world in they way that's important to them. And let them contribute their own templates to the project (almost like WordPress templates). View the world from a Chinese or Tibetan viewpoint, or any other point of view they can possibly imagine. The template is a starting point. Let them filter, drill, cross reference, look at different layers. These templates are a whole new layer of data - they define data subsets and ways to present it visually. I think the view of our data is as important as the geographic data itself. As the geographic database becomes more complete, contributors to the project will move away from contributing new geographic data, and focus on contributing and perfecting map style templates. The template may even have a role in editing the map data and help with one of Frederik's other points he raised before Christmas relating to the overhead needed to edit (i.e. that you must download the entire scope of data for the geographic area you're working on). A template will only download the relevant data (e.g. public transport routes). Thus, an edit mode invoked from that template view could take us into an editing mode where we only work on that data subset. Just my thoughts and dreams. Lets hope 2012 is a great year for OSM. Happy New Year, BJ On 30/12/2011, at 11:20 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 12/29/2011 10:39 PM, Ben Johnson wrote: There seems to be a duality of identity here. On one hand, some are saying lets make it more accessible and friendly to ordinary people. On the other hand, some appear embarrassed by the prominence of maps to represent what our community is all about, and they want to retain a geeky we are not a map, we are a database ideology. This is not a geeky ideology, this is the heart of our project. Otherwise we'd all be using the Gimp (or maybe Inkscape), and not JOSM or Potlatch. The two goals are completely incompatible because ordinary people expect OSM to be all about maps. When in fact we're about providing the ingredients so that great maps become possible. This is the big thing about OSM: We don't decide how the map looks like. We don't decide what is shown on the map. We don't make all these decisions for you. If you want these decisions made for you, use Google Maps. If you want to be part of a project where one guy can make a cycle map and another guy can make a transport map and someone else prints posters and someone else still makes nautical maps, all from the same data, and all precisely because the core of the project doesn't make the map but just the raw data, then OSM is for you. Again, what is embarrassing about a map? It is not embarassing, but misleading. If we were to convey the idea that we are about a map, then people would come and say uh, how can I change this motorway to become orange instead of blue, and also I would like the name of that pub displaced a bit so it doesn't obscure the name of the nearby church. Even today we - occasionally, thank god - have people who actually delete things from OSM because they don't want them on their map. We have to educate them about how the data is the same for all, but the map need not be. I really do hope OSM finds its way through this quagmire of identity and eventually becomes the world's map, widely used, integrated, and quoted in all kinds of spheres. No. There is no the world's map. Everyone wants a different map. And that's why we must *not* fall into the trap of trying to provide the right map for everyone. The great thing about us is that, given the right tools, people can *make* the right map for themselves. This is too difficult now, but it can become easier. Take our data, take your ideas, and make your map - not take our map. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say
For what it's worth I also think it's very important to have a prominent map on the front page and I believe this whole debate just highlights the fact that OSM is not ready for mainstream and remains a geeky subculture. There seems to be a duality of identity here. On one hand, some are saying lets make it more accessible and friendly to ordinary people. On the other hand, some appear embarrassed by the prominence of maps to represent what our community is all about, and they want to retain a geeky we are not a map, we are a database ideology. The two goals are completely incompatible because ordinary people expect OSM to be all about maps. In fact, I was drawn into the project on the premise that OSM is the Wikipedia of maps, and I found it an exciting prospect to contribute to such a great idea. Well... you go over to Wikipedia and the first thing you see is the front page of an encyclopedia, ready to be searched and used as such. You know there's no bells and whistles, and thats a good thing. You're attracted by the clean commercial-free environment, and you have confidence that the information in Wikipedia has been lovingly provided by contributors who want to leave their legacy to the world by sharing their knowledge and expertise, and rigorously reviewed and checked by other contributors. You don't hear Wikipedia trumpeting we are not an encyclopedia, we are a database of information. No... they scream from the mountain tops we are the world's encyclopedia, and absolutely relish in it. Why can't OSM be also scream from a nearby mountain top, we are the world's map I mean, what's so embarrassing about providing a good, comprehensive, accessible map? It's an accomplishment of which we should all be proud, not hide away. Yes we don't have gimmicks like street view and satellite view. So too Wikipedia lacks rich multimedia content. It's simple, clean, fast, comprehensive, accurate - and yet very very successful. Again, what is embarrassing about a map? I really do hope OSM finds its way through this quagmire of identity and eventually becomes the world's map, widely used, integrated, and quoted in all kinds of spheres. That's my vision. BJ On 29/12/2011, at 9:09, Barnett, Phillip phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk wrote: Well yes, but instead you've got a very conspicuous link saying 'Where's the map? .. here it is. And also four other obvious maps below that even! PHILLIP BARNETT SERVER MANAGER 200 GRAY'S INN ROAD LONDON WC1X 8XZ UNITED KINGDOM T +44 (0)20 7430 4474 F E phillip.barn...@itn.co.uk WWW.ITN.CO.UK Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email? -Original Message- From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org] Sent: 28 December 2011 21:51 To: Thomas Davie Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Things People Say Hi, On 12/28/2011 10:41 PM, Thomas Davie wrote: This is a lot better though than Can you believe it, OpenStreetMap doesn't even have an open street map on their home page!. We've been using http://www.openstreetmap.de/ in its current form for 6 weeks now. I'll let you know when someone complains that it has no map. (The earlier version did have an OpenLayers map on the front page but using only about 1/3 of screen real estate.) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Please Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Independent Television News Limited unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@itn.co.uk Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems. Thank You. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[talk-au] Remapping Sydney's railways
Just a heads up... I've started remapping Sydney's railway lines, given about 80% of them are marked to be wiped. I am a CityRail train driver and regularly travel over most of these train lines and have intimate knowledge of them - including track direction, electrification details, location of points, names of tracks and sidings, speeds, etc.. and I also do a lot of GPS traces while driving trains. I don't mind undertaking this task, and once complete I'll add the passenger route relations. At this stage I'll stick with what I know best - i.e. the Sydney suburban area bounded by Berowra, Bondi Junction, Cronulla, Waterfall, Macarthur, Emu Plains and Richmond. My focus will be on the actual train tracks first. Thought I'd let the community know, so that others may concentrate their efforts on remapping other priority stuff - and I guess it makes sense to start with things you know the most about. I just want to add, that I think the original v1 creator of Sydney's railways (JohnSmith) had done a fantastic job, and I had shown a few people at RailCorp who were very impressed with the level of detail - so I want it on record that I take no pleasure in having to delete and remap his fantastic work, but I guess it's time to bunker down because it just has to be done. Cheers, BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [OSM-talk] Smartphone app to OSM
iLOE for iPhone is pretty nifty for light editing. Not sure if it's available for Android, but worth checking out if you can get it. BJ Sent from my iPhone On 13/12/2011, at 3:49, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote: That looks like an exceedingly useful app. Interesting to see OSM editing software appear on the Win Phone platform. Does something similar exist for other platforms? I mean a simple, single purpose app to add or improve POI data. I'm particularly interested in an Android app. On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 5:16 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 12/12/2011 5:10 AM, Floris Looijesteijn wrote: Looks nice! Does it add everything as one osm user? In other words: how does it work 'license-wise'? I'm looking at making something similiar so I'm very intested in this... In the local case, a new OSM ID was created to add the points, so it's a good OSM citizen. I don't know if they support OpenID to simplify the signup process; I don't have access to a WinPhone to check. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- martijn van exel geospatial omnivore 1109 1st ave #2 salt lake city, ut 84103 801-550-5815 http://oegeo.wordpress.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
On 03/12/2011, at 9:10, Mark Pulley mrpul...@lizzy.com.au wrote: On 02/12/2011, at 2:13 PM, Ben Kelley wrote: The content of these edits is in the public domain (I.e. the default residential speed limit in Australia) and these edits could be re-edited by an actual bot. Given that these edits are easy to identify, and the large number of ways, this might be a useful exercise. It would give us a clearer in terms of knowing which ways are really in need of re-mapping. Ben Kelley Just be aware that some of these have been re-edited - I have corrected some of these maxspeeds when they were wrong, and where they were correct I have changed the source tag. ... Mark P. Likewise, I actually (manually) added maxspeed=50 along with maxspeed:source=default residential etc... (word for word) to many ways i created in the belief that this was some kind of accepted standard being used in Australia. If I need to go back and change them I can, but it there are many more others like me out there then any undo/redo bot might need to consider this. BJ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
On 06/12/2011, at 12:00 PM, Ian Sergeant wrote: On 6 December 2011 11:40, Ben Johnson tangarar...@gmail.com wrote: Likewise, I actually (manually) added maxspeed=50 along with maxspeed:source=default residential etc... (word for word) to many ways i created in the belief that this was some kind of accepted standard being used in Australia. If you've agreed to the CT, then I can't see ways you have created being removed by any automated process just because you have used a particular form. The bot edits were made from an account that has declined the CTs, and they are the target here. However, did you add this source after verifying the maxspeed, or did you just guess? If you have actually verified the maxspeed, it is important that you update the source to be survey, or the like. People do go and check unverified information like this, and it adds efficiency when edits accurately reflect the source. Ian. They need to be verified. I regularly visit the areas I'm working on and I mostly use voice recordings. Have been focusing on street names which I spell out from signs, and very interested in house numbers. Speed limits were an afterthought but I figured it would be a good start just to use 50 with the default blah blah... as I'd seen everywhere else for the residential streets. Will change them to survey or sign ... or the like once verified. BJ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Maxspeed bots
On 06/12/2011, at 4:19 PM, i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Likewise, I actually (manually) added maxspeed=50 along with maxspeed:source=default residential etc... (word for word) to many ways i created in the belief that this was some kind of accepted standard being used in Australia. You might want to revisit these as the maxspeed:source should have been source:maxspeed The originator of the bot made a mistake with this and was going to fix it but the pre licence change lockout prevented this. Ouch. Thanks for the heads-up. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [OpenStreetMap] intersections
On 29/11/2011, at 3:20 PM, nicholas.g.lawre...@tmr.qld.gov.au wrote: I will continue to edit to get the roads and intersections to look professional, reflecting reality, rather than the confusing, chunky rendering with an over-abundance of arrows and street names that I so often come across. I for one don't want an OSM which looks pretty, but is useless! The reality we seek is utilitarian, not just aesthetic. John H Sounds like a data vs rendering issue? You want the data for routing, but the rendering should still look pretty. nick Recently I read a suggestion for zoom hinting tags to assist / override renderers in deciding whether certain elements should be visible at certain zoom levels. Adopting an assisted rendering approach to hide various ugliness could be a step toward having the best of both worlds. Not only with road elements, POIs, but also place names. Here's a perfect example - it's my understanding that small, isolated regional townships in remote areas of Australia need to be tagged as towns or cities, despite their population being that of a village. E.g. the township of Tennant Creek, NT is tagged City, though it's population is only 3,500 (2005 data). The OSM wiki suggests a population centre of 100,000+ is a City. However, we need to break these rules in order to put small but important isolated townships on the map, so it's a case where tagging for the renderer is accepted, but it's something that I'm not comfortable with and is a perfect example to demonstrate a need for assisted rendering tags. Imagine a tourist... off to see the City of Tennant Creek because OSM told them it's a major population centre... and they arrive to find a truckstop and a pub! :-) BJ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
