Re: [Talk-us] Potential Mechanical Edit to remove access=private from Amazon Logistics driveways in NH
On Mon, 2020-08-17 at 09:14 -0700, stevea wrote: > I believe it correct that access=private tag be removed from > highway=service + service=driveway, as "private" seems too strict to > accurately describe a driveway (that's part subjunctive mood where it > needs doing, part indicative where true now). This is especially > correct when entered or deleted by a company performing delivery > services — access=destination seems much more precise, and directly > in that exact circumstance. I only tag access=private when there is > a sign explicitly prohibiting access, a gate which enforces this, or > both. > > (And "I believe it correct..." is, after all, simply one person's > opinion, it is important to remind). > > There is an "implied semantic" (in my mind and I believe many > others') of how private property and driveways "work" in USA law and > custom: "If tagged highway=service + service=driveway, this MEANS it > is on private property. If you are invited by having delivery > requested or are visiting the residence (by invitation) or business > (because they are open) so attached to the road network, you may > traverse. Otherwise, it should be respected as private property, > access=private is superfluous and too strict." This makes sense; however, on the other hand, I can't think of a situation where someone grants blanket access to the public to drive on their home's driveway whenever they want, so access=private seems like it would be correct for 99% of cases. However, I do agree that because of this custom, it makes sense instead just to leave it highway=service + service=driveway, and leave off the access tag for these kinds of automated bulk additions. Thanks for your input! -- Skyler ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Potential Mechanical Edit to remove access=private from Amazon Logistics driveways in NH
Was there a previous discussion about this that I can catch up on? Driveways seem like access=private is appropriate across the board, not just when there is explicit signage. If you drive onto someone's house's driveway without permission, you are trespassing on their property. -- Skyler___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
Indeed, this is exactly what I was thinking. From an engineering maintenance perspective, even if you managed to get something "working", the result would be an incomprehensible mess. I don't usually like to speak in such extremes, and I certainly don't mean any offense, but in this case it's warranted: this is a pretty bad idea. On Tue, 2020-08-04 at 14:08 -0400, Mike Nice wrote: > On 8/4/2020 7:21 AM, pangoSE wrote: > > I suggest we wait for ruffle to be ready and then compile P2 to > > first wasm and then decompile it into C and then translate it into > > rust. > > It can then be cleaned up and shipped to both as a desktop > > application and a wasm binary run in the browser. > ruffle -> wasm -> C -> rust is unlikely to be useful. Sure it might > run, but all program comments will have been stripped. The automatic > C > -> Rust step is likely to generate unsafe mode code that must be > cleaned > up to fully see the benefits of Rust. And finally, the result > would > not be maintainable over the long term without a huge amount of > cleanup. > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestions welcome | Re: Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
In the absence of other proposals, even splitting it among the other two would be a much better use, in my opinion. -- Skyler On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, at 13:27, Rory McCann wrote: > On 02.08.20 01:03, Skyler Hawthorne wrote: > > Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to > > continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. > > Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This money is > > better spent on other uses. > > What would you suggest? > > Serious question. We're suggesting spending €2,500 on this. Where else > do you suggest spending €2,500 on? > > Rory > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2
On July 31, 2020 20:29:33 Guillaume Rischard wrote: Potlatch 2 Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay. While usage is declining, it’s still used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020. Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so users who still rely on it can continue to use it. The full proposal is at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This money is better spent on other uses. -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
Yes, I was logged in. In fact, I just double checked: editing is not allowed unless you are logged in. -- Skyler On July 26, 2020 21:35:42 Chuck Sanders wrote: Question to verify - were you logged into the wiki when editing? I'm guessing not but didn't see it mentioned. I'm betting a lot of people haven't noticed this issue because we're logged in, so it doesn't present a captcha,l. Even if they were working on the same platform, they might not have encountered it. Chuck ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
Yes, I reported it here: https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/449 I'm not sure if it's the right place, but there was another issue about CAPTCHA on the wiki, so it seemed like it. -- Skyler On July 26, 2020 17:14:05 Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: Have you already reported it as a bug (not sure where it should be done - operations bug tracker?) 26 Jul 2020, 20:55 by o...@dead10ck.com: Interesting, when I edited in the Desktop version, I got a CAPTCHA, and after doing it, the edit worked! Thanks for the suggestion. So yeah, it seems like the CAPTCHA on mobile is broken. -- Skyler On July 26, 2020 14:46:58 Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Can you try viewing it in the desktop mode or on a laptop/other full sized screen? Maybe mobile version is broken. 26 Jul 2020, 20:13 by o...@dead10ck.com: Right, here is a screenshot: https://skyler-public.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Screenshot_20200723-175602.jpg -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 19:54:22 Michał Brzozowski wrote: Hi Skyler, You can use any image hosting site to upload the image, and then post a link here. For instance: https://imgur.com/upload Michał On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 6:50 AM Skyler Hawthorne wrote: I tried to post a screenshot, but the mailing list has a max size of 40 KB, which seems very small. I am on a OnePlus 7T with OxygenOS 10.0.11.HD65AA. I've tried a couple of pages by clicking the pencil button, making my changes, and then hitting the Save button. This is when the text box appears that says "Confirmation Code." The same thing happens on both Firefox and Chrome. -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 00:12:45 Skyler Hawthorne wrote: Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate. When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or something, but I never get one. What does it want? -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
On July 26, 2020 14:56:39 stevea wrote: I speculate (a bit, though I am a seasoned software quality assurance analyst), but I lean heavily towards Skyler's specific environment of a OnePlus mobile device running OxygenOS 10 and regardless of whether he uses Firefox or Chrome. What I find curious is that I asked Skyler whether to edit wiki, he chose "Edit" or "Edit Source" and he said "Neither, I clicked the Pencil icon." That strongly seems like something either his OS or browser is "doing" (javascript somewhere?) and appears to get us closer to finding the code-path where the "Confirmation code" dialog is thrown. As a software engineer, my intuition would incline me to doubt this has anything to do with my OS. OSs don't tend to directly manipulate your web traffic in such a way that could lead to breaking functionality in web apps (analytics, of course, are a different matter). As for "edit" vs "edit source", you can see for yourself that neither of those are an option on the mobile site. https://skyler-public.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Screenshot_20200726-150258.jpg The pencil icon brings me to a text box with wikitext, so my guess is that it is "edit source", although such words do not appear anywhere that I noticed. Skyler, one more piece of the puzzle: your screen shot chops off the end of the web page you are browsing: it says https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/New... and then fades out. May we have the page you were trying to edit and the name of the browser you were running with this screen shot? If you are asking for the full URL, it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=New_York/NYS_GIS_Clearinghouse#/editor/0 These screenshots are from the latest version of Firefox for Android, although the same thing happens in Chrome and Brave as well. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
Interesting, when I edited in the Desktop version, I got a CAPTCHA, and after doing it, the edit worked! Thanks for the suggestion. So yeah, it seems like the CAPTCHA on mobile is broken. -- Skyler On July 26, 2020 14:46:58 Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Can you try viewing it in the desktop mode or on a laptop/other full sized screen? Maybe mobile version is broken. 26 Jul 2020, 20:13 by o...@dead10ck.com: Right, here is a screenshot: https://skyler-public.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Screenshot_20200723-175602.jpg -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 19:54:22 Michał Brzozowski wrote: Hi Skyler, You can use any image hosting site to upload the image, and then post a link here. For instance: https://imgur.com/upload Michał On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 6:50 AM Skyler Hawthorne wrote: I tried to post a screenshot, but the mailing list has a max size of 40 KB, which seems very small. I am on a OnePlus 7T with OxygenOS 10.0.11.HD65AA. I've tried a couple of pages by clicking the pencil button, making my changes, and then hitting the Save button. This is when the text box appears that says "Confirmation Code." The same thing happens on both Firefox and Chrome. -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 00:12:45 Skyler Hawthorne wrote: Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate. When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or something, but I never get one. What does it want? -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
Right, here is a screenshot: https://skyler-public.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Screenshot_20200723-175602.jpg -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 19:54:22 Michał Brzozowski wrote: Hi Skyler, You can use any image hosting site to upload the image, and then post a link here. For instance: https://imgur.com/upload Michał On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 6:50 AM Skyler Hawthorne wrote: I tried to post a screenshot, but the mailing list has a max size of 40 KB, which seems very small. I am on a OnePlus 7T with OxygenOS 10.0.11.HD65AA. I've tried a couple of pages by clicking the pencil button, making my changes, and then hitting the Save button. This is when the text box appears that says "Confirmation Code." The same thing happens on both Firefox and Chrome. -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 00:12:45 Skyler Hawthorne wrote: Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate. When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or something, but I never get one. What does it want? -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
This doesn't look like CAPTCHA. It's just a text box with the word "Confirmation Code". It still happens with all ad blockers off. There are no requests to Google hosts, or any other non-OSM hosts. -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 08:13:10 Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: I would expect CAPTCHA. Can you try with adblock disabled (including pihole, in-browser adblock, hosts file blocking etc)? (yes, we are using recaptcha - if someone is capable of working on switching it to something better - see https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/383 and https://github.com/openstreetmap/chef/issues/298 Jul 25, 2020, 06:10 by o...@dead10ck.com: Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate. When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or something, but I never get one. What does it want? -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
I tried to post a screenshot, but the mailing list has a max size of 40 KB, which seems very small. I am on a OnePlus 7T with OxygenOS 10.0.11.HD65AA. I've tried a couple of pages by clicking the pencil button, making my changes, and then hitting the Save button. This is when the text box appears that says "Confirmation Code." The same thing happens on both Firefox and Chrome. -- Skyler On July 25, 2020 00:12:45 Skyler Hawthorne wrote: Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate. When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or something, but I never get one. What does it want? -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?
Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate. When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or something, but I never get one. What does it want? -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Interested in importing address points in New York State
Thanks Mateusz, I actually tried to make a page, but I am encountering some strange behavior from the wiki. When I try to edit or add a page, a text box appears that says "confirmation code," with no other explanation. I don't get an email with a confirmation code, so I have no idea what it wants. I was going to make a subpage of New York with the title of "NYS GIS Clearinghouse", and include a link to it in the Potential Data sources page. I'm not sure if it's possible to upload and serve arbitrary files in the wiki; if so, I was going to upload that raw email file. -- Skyler On July 20, 2020 03:24:18 Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us wrote: Jul 20, 2020, 05:12 by kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:46 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us wrote: Once you write this diary entry (or OSM Wiki page) please post it to the mailing list! Here you go: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ke9tv/diary/393684 Feel free to repost, wikify, share as appropriate! For now I created tiny https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/E911_data_in_New_York to make this easier to search. For start - what would be the best name for that page? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State
Fascinating read, thanks so much for the research and the write-up! -- Skyler On July 19, 2020 23:12:52 Kevin Kenny wrote: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 12:46 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-us wrote: Once you write this diary entry (or OSM Wiki page) please post it to the mailing list! Here you go: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ke9tv/diary/393684 Feel free to repost, wikify, share as appropriate! Skyler, thanks for trying again to reach out! I'd written, both email and paper, to several people listed as contacts on gis.ny.gov and never received a response. You'll notice that I made a copy of the mail on my personal site and referenced it as an exhibit in the diary entry. (PS: I was shouting at the screen as I read that self-congratulatory article at https://gis.ny.gov/outreach/gist/fall01.htm) -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin ___ Talk-us-newyork mailing list talk-us-newy...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us-newyork ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State
On July 18, 2020 16:07:55 Russell Nelson wrote: Well there you go! You should make a page on the Wiki under Imports, and save this email there. So it doesn't get lost. Like my NYSDEC email did. :( I will make sure to do that when I get a chance! -- Skyler ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State
On July 18, 2020 14:53:26 Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Not a lawyer, but is it possible that "use the points for any lawful purpose" is nonanswer as a use invaloving copyright infringement would not be lawful? Also not a lawyer, but there is plenty of unambiguous context. I contacted him regarding the SAM Address Points in the NYS GIS Clearing House and he replied that he "would very much like the SAM address points to be included in Open Street Map." There's not much room for confusion or alternative interpretation. -- Skyler ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State
Well, it turned it to be a lot easier than I was thinking it would be! I reached out to the contact listed on the Clearing House web site, using the template in the wiki page, and he replied confirming that we have permission to use the data. This is the text of the email exchange, and I've also attached the raw .eml file. From: Winters, Frank (ITS) frank.wint...@its.ny.gov Date: July 17, 2020 22:30:24 Subject: RE: Interested in importing the Address Point data from the Clearing House into OpenStreetMap To: Skyler Hawthorne o...@dead10ck.com CC: Coryell, Rodger (ITS) rodger.cory...@its.ny.gov, Fargione, Craig (ITS) craig.fargi...@its.ny.gov Hi Skyler, nice to hear form you. We would very much like the SAM address points to be included in Open Street Map. The permitted use of the points is quite simple. You may use the points for any lawful purpose. While we do our best to maintain a comprehensive and accurate set of address points with our limited resources we know it has shortcomings. See the metadata for the liability disclaimer. We generally post quarterly updates to the data set. Frank Winters Geographic Information Officer Office of Information Technology Services W. Averell Harriman State Office Campus Bldg. 5 - Floor 1 Albany, NY 12226 518.242.5036 | 518.281.9140 m | frank.wint...@its.ny.gov -Original Message- From: Skyler Hawthorne Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 6:30 PM To: Winters, Frank (ITS) Subject: Interested in importing the Address Point data from the Clearing House into OpenStreetMap ATTENTION: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails. Hello Mr Winters, Thank you for your part in making the GIS data for New York State available to the public through the Clearing House project! I am a contributor to the OpenStreetMap project [1], a collaborative open project to create a global geodata set freely usable by anyone [2]. We respect the IP rights of others and I write to ask if we can use this data. There does not appear to be any explicit information about the license under which the data sets in the Cleaning House web site are distributed. It's unclear what the terms are for its use, and specifically whether or not it is public domain, and if it is permitted to import into the OpenStreetMap project and redistribute to the world under an open license. At the most simple, I would seek a statement like this: "The New York State GIS Program Office [or the relevant NYS department(s)] has no objections to geodata derived in part from the GIS Clearing House data sets being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata database and released under a free and open license" [1] I also ask that whatever statement you are prepared to make can be made public for information purposes. Below is a fact sheet. If you would like any more information, I will do my best to help or can ask our project's License Working Group to get in touch with you. Regards, Skyler Hawthorne Fact Sheet [1] The OpenStreetMap project currently has over 750,000 registered contributors worldwide. Our main website is https://www.openstreetmap.org [2] We are mandated to make our geodata available in perpetuity under a free and open licence. We are not allowed to use a commercial license, but commercial organisations are allowed to use our data under similar terms. [3] Our data is currently published under the Open Database License 1.0, https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=76761582-2a4eb33f-7674ecb7-000babd9fa3f-f71edf933744da0d=1=391ef603-5912-439f-b6e4-b8ac749598bd=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opendatacommons.org%2Flicenses%2Fodbl%2F [4] Most of our geodata is contributed by individuals. However, we are very grateful when able to incorporate or derive from other geo-data datasets where license terms are compatible. [5] We formally attribute all such sources at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution, using any specific wording if you request. We also try to provide a link to this page with any extract of data from our database. However, for reasons of practicality, we do not require end-users to repeat such attribution since it runs into hundreds. [6] We also keep a public track of third party data use at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue and usually have a project page for each dataset, describing how we use it and whether there are any license restrictions to be aware of. [7] If you have any specific legal questions, the OpenStreetMap Foundation's License Working Group can be reached at le...@osmfoundation.org and will be glad to help. -- Skyler <> ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State
Well, it turned it to be a lot easier than I was thinking it would be! I reached out to the contact listed on the Clearing House web site, using the template in the wiki page, and he replied confirming that we have permission to use the data. This is the text of the email exchange, and I've also attached the raw .eml file. From: Winters, Frank (ITS) frank.wint...@its.ny.gov Date: July 17, 2020 22:30:24 Subject: RE: Interested in importing the Address Point data from the Clearing House into OpenStreetMap To: Skyler Hawthorne o...@dead10ck.com CC: Coryell, Rodger (ITS) rodger.cory...@its.ny.gov, Fargione, Craig (ITS) craig.fargi...@its.ny.gov Hi Skyler, nice to hear form you. We would very much like the SAM address points to be included in Open Street Map. The permitted use of the points is quite simple. You may use the points for any lawful purpose. While we do our best to maintain a comprehensive and accurate set of address points with our limited resources we know it has shortcomings. See the metadata for the liability disclaimer. We generally post quarterly updates to the data set. Frank Winters Geographic Information Officer Office of Information Technology Services W. Averell Harriman State Office Campus Bldg. 5 - Floor 1 Albany, NY 12226 518.242.5036 | 518.281.9140 m | frank.wint...@its.ny.gov -Original Message- From: Skyler Hawthorne Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 6:30 PM To: Winters, Frank (ITS) Subject: Interested in importing the Address Point data from the Clearing House into OpenStreetMap ATTENTION: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails. Hello Mr Winters, Thank you for your part in making the GIS data for New York State available to the public through the Clearing House project! I am a contributor to the OpenStreetMap project [1], a collaborative open project to create a global geodata set freely usable by anyone [2]. We respect the IP rights of others and I write to ask if we can use this data. There does not appear to be any explicit information about the license under which the data sets in the Cleaning House web site are distributed. It's unclear what the terms are for its use, and specifically whether or not it is public domain, and if it is permitted to import into the OpenStreetMap project and redistribute to the world under an open license. At the most simple, I would seek a statement like this: "The New York State GIS Program Office [or the relevant NYS department(s)] has no objections to geodata derived in part from the GIS Clearing House data sets being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata database and released under a free and open license" [1] I also ask that whatever statement you are prepared to make can be made public for information purposes. Below is a fact sheet. If you would like any more information, I will do my best to help or can ask our project's License Working Group to get in touch with you. Regards, Skyler Hawthorne Fact Sheet [1] The OpenStreetMap project currently has over 750,000 registered contributors worldwide. Our main website is https://www.openstreetmap.org [2] We are mandated to make our geodata available in perpetuity under a free and open licence. We are not allowed to use a commercial license, but commercial organisations are allowed to use our data under similar terms. [3] Our data is currently published under the Open Database License 1.0, https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=76761582-2a4eb33f-7674ecb7-000babd9fa3f-f71edf933744da0d=1=391ef603-5912-439f-b6e4-b8ac749598bd=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opendatacommons.org%2Flicenses%2Fodbl%2F [4] Most of our geodata is contributed by individuals. However, we are very grateful when able to incorporate or derive from other geo-data datasets where license terms are compatible. [5] We formally attribute all such sources at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution, using any specific wording if you request. We also try to provide a link to this page with any extract of data from our database. However, for reasons of practicality, we do not require end-users to repeat such attribution since it runs into hundreds. [6] We also keep a public track of third party data use at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue and usually have a project page for each dataset, describing how we use it and whether there are any license restrictions to be aware of. [7] If you have any specific legal questions, the OpenStreetMap Foundation's License Working Group can be reached at le...@osmfoundation.org and will be glad to help. On July 16, 2020 12:16:19 Kevin Kenny wrote: (By the way, hi, Skyler, and welcome! You've stepped into a difficult area - most programmers don't realize just how difficult until they've waded in. The legal situation in New York is _very_ complicated, because the key court case that govern
Re: [Talk-us] [Talk-us-newyork] Interested in importing address points in New York State
Thank you so much for your reply! That's exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for by posting here. On July 16, 2020 12:16:19 Kevin Kenny wrote: I'm less sanguine than Skyler is about the data quality. I suspect s/he (the given name doesn't clearly identify a preferred pronoun) has been looking at urban or suburban areas in counties whose GIS departments have relatively stable funding. In those situations, yes, the data are fairly good. There is still a serious conflation issue that isn't addressed, with respect to buildings whose footprints are already mapped but do not bear addresses, where the address point may or may not be in the building footprint. Many address points, too, get clustered at the entrance of a private or shared driveway, rather than being on the indivdual dwellings. I seem to recall that at least one or two of the apartment and townhouse complexes in the general area of https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/42.83211/-73.89931 had to have their house numbers collected on foot, because the E911 data showed all the address points in a single cluster. In the rural areas, particularly in the counties with tiny populations, the situation is grimmer. I'm not certain that Schuyler or Wyoming Counties even would _have_ dedicated GIS departments! Until relatively recently, when grant money was available to have this information in GIS systems for E911 use, they mostly were still using paper maps, often referenced to an unknown datum. (The first job in dealing with any scanned tax plat is figuring out what coordinate frame it's using - around here, NAD27 differs from NAD83 by a few tens of metres.) The address points may be parcel centroids, or building centroids, or the point where the driveway meets the road, or even just something that was digitized from a pencil sketch made by an assessor. Import of this sort of data could well prove to be a short-term gain but impose a heavy long-term burden; consider the love-hate relationship that we all have with TIGER. (The import means that we've got a nearly-filled-in map, a lot of which is of halfway-decent quality, and we don't have the mappers to have done it nearly as quickly any other way. Nevertheless, for some years we've been paying the price in bad data and worse conflation.) So, my advice for both legal and technical reasons would be to use caution, and recognize that mechanical import is likely to be a disaster - the data will need to be eyeballed by human beings and corrected. I certainly did not do an extensive check of the quality, so this is a super useful perspective. (I wanted more clarity on the legal aspect before investing more time in that, since, after all, if it's a definite no go from a legal perspective, why waste any time at all?) It's unfortunate that there's such a big variation in quality, although not unexpected, since they come from the counties themselves. However, at least the examples you gave would not necessarily make me consider the data unusable without extensive correction. The way I look at this is: if the point is close enough that were a person to stand right at the exact spot, could they find the place they are looking for? If the answer is yes for the vast majority of the data, then I would call that a net gain for OSM. Furthermore, if the data were never manually reviewed and corrected, would it still be valuable enough to import? You obviously have extensive experience with this data set, so I would trust your judgment on this, but if the worst problems we see are mostly the ones you described, it would sound to me like the pros outweigh the cons, even if the points were never corrected. For example, I've personally seen many roads from TIGER imports that are way way off, or even nonexistent, especially long driveways in deeply rural areas. But the fact that the main named roads are there at all is a huge benefit to OSM, even if not every road is perfectly accurate, and many will simply never be reviewed. (With that said, obviously I would want the data to be as accurate as possible, and I'm not making a case to import all the data as is with no review or correction, but simply thinking through the practical reality of the task of making all the data completely accurate. We don't want perfect to be the enemy of good.) For the issue of conflation with existing buildings with no address tags, that might be too difficult of a case to address without reviewing each and every case by hand, which might be practically infeasible. I've seen a lot of cases where there is a house and a detached garage, or in-law right next to the house. It might be possible to detect if there is only one point that is inside of a building, but for the other cases you mentioned, where it might instead be the centroid of the parcel, or at the intersection of the driveway and the street, I don't think there would be a way around fixing these by hand, which indeed would be
[Talk-us] Interested in importing address points in New York State
Hello. I'm a relatively new mapper, and I'm mostly working in upstate NY, where there is not great coverage outside of roads. I've been adding houses manually, but progress is slow and inefficient this way. I found that NYS publishes GIS data in their "Clearing House", and one of the data sets available is address points: https://gis.ny.gov/gisdata/inventories/details.cfm?DSID=921 I opened the data in JOSM, and they look spatially accurate, for the most part (I noticed some points are off for addresses that don't have recent satellite imagery available). Reading up on the import guidelines, I can see that the license is important. However, I am not able to see anything that explicitly states one way or another what kind of license the data sets are distributed under, and this whether or not it is compatible with the ODBL. I wanted to ask if perhaps anyone else had investigated these data sets in the past, and what their findings were. If not, is the next step to email someone and ask? I don't have anything like an extensive plan for carrying out an import, which is why I did not include the "authoritative" imports mailing list yet. However, at a high level, as I am a software engineer by trade, my plan is to write a script that reads the shapefiles and an .osm file dump as input, does the attribute to tag transformations, and deduplicates with the existing data by excluding any address points that already exist in any OSM object with equivalent addr:* tags (it might also be necessary to inspect all associatedStreet and street relations). It would produce an .osm as output that contains nodes with just addr:* tags. This can then be opened in JOSM and merged into the standard data layer. I'd probably start with a single county and go from there. As a disclaimer, I do this in my free time, which is in short supply, so progress on this would likely be slow. However, I would love if everyone could just search for any address and find it. -- Skyler ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Let's talk Attribution
As a new contributor, and a software engineer, it is surprising to learn that there is such a lax attitude towards lack of attribution. Every open source software license I can think of has attribution as a central tenet. People spend their free time on this stuff, and they do it because they care about it. There are people who get pretty upset when they find others using their hard work for their own gain without so much as a footnote (which is really all the guidelines appear to be asking for). Attribution matters. It lets people know what the project is and that it positively impacted their lives. And equally importantly, it bestows a modicum of respect and gratitude to the volunteers who spend their free time making the project what it is. -- Skyler ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
