Re: [talk-au] M11 naming

[Dian Ågesson]

Hey Adam,

it was at the corner of Lower Dandenong and also Centre Dandenong; they 
both said Mornington Peninsula Fwy. I saw it again this morning on my 
way through the area, and didn't take a photo… can try and do so again 
later today if needed?


dian

On 2021-11-26 16:54, Adam Horan wrote:

@Dian where were the roadsigns that you saw? Maybe someone can get out 
and take some pictures.


From VicNames it seems that south of Springvale Road it's called 
Mornington Peninsula Freeway, but north of Springvale it's Mordialloc 
Freeway. Continue further south and it's Peninsula Link, and then 
further it's back to Mornington Peninsula Freeway.


I'm sure the signs on Peninsula Link still say that, but I have seen 
newer/adjusted signs in this northern area which refer to MPF. 
Unfortunately I can't remember exactly where I saw them...


The only consistent thing is the M11 numbering :)

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 15:56, Brendan Barnes  
wrote:


Unfortunately the Major Road Projects Victoria website is not 
compatible with the ODbL, as "no part may be reproduced or used for any 
commercial purposes whatsoever". The press release on their site has no 
other licencing information, so we should treat it as copyright and not 
use it as a source for OSM data.


The Engage Victoria website is CC BY 4.0 (State of Victoria (Department 
of Premier and Cabinet)), but unfortunately we don't have a waiver for.


To ensure data in our database is sourced correctly, we need to collect 
street naming from on-the-ground surveys, compatible imagery providers, 
and any other compatible licence sources.


On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 00:07, Adam Horan  wrote:

The existing southern end of this road which was known through 
construction as 'Peninsula Link', and is mapped as such now, should 
probably also be called 'Mornington Peninsula Freeway.'
See relation 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12622680#map=12/-38.1791/145.1193 
and ways within.
Here is a VicRoads doc referring to upgrades on the southern part, and 
calling it Mornington Peninsula Freeway https://engage.vic.gov.au/mpfu

However roadsigns along the road seem to call it Peninsula Link still.

re the Mordialloc end - the project page is clear that _"The 9km long 
Mordialloc Freeway connects the Mornington Peninsula Freeway in 
Aspendale Gardens to the Dingley Bypass in Dingley Village..."_

https://roadprojects.vic.gov.au/projects/mordialloc-freeway
The press release for opening it calls it Mordialloc Freeway 
https://roadprojects.vic.gov.au/news/mordialloc-freeway-open


On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 22:51, Brendan Barnes  
wrote:


Nice work from the community surveying and mapping so quickly since 
early opening.


There's no KartaView imagery of the extension, and Mapillary isn't 
loading for me right now, so it's hard to weigh-in as an armchair 
mapper.


On sampling some of the ways (example 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/913115111), both name=* and 
official_name=* appear to be sourced correctly and follow the "map 
what's on the ground" good practice.


My only suggestion would be alt_name=* being the same as 
official_name=* is probably redundant.


On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 21:11, Dian Ågesson  wrote:

Hello,

There has been a flurry of activity in South-East Melbourne surrounding 
the opening of the brand new M11 extension. Unfortunately, it seems as 
though sources vary on the name of this new section of road.


The construction has been heavily advertised and promoted as the 
'Mordialloc Freeway'. That is the name of the road on Vicnames as well.


Every roadsign I've seen in the area though uses 'Mornington Peninsula 
Freeway'. Wikipedia (currently) uses that name as well, but the editors 
there seem unsure what to call it as well.


Thoughts?

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Re: [talk-au] M11 naming

[Dian Ågesson]

Hey Adam,

I've seen the signs at both Lower and Centre Dandenong Roads. Both said 
Morning Peninsula Fwy. I drove past one this morning but didn't take a 
picture, but I can swing past again if necessary.


Dian

On 2021-11-26 16:54, Adam Horan wrote:

@Dian where were the roadsigns that you saw? Maybe someone can get out 
and take some pictures.


From VicNames it seems that south of Springvale Road it's called 
Mornington Peninsula Freeway, but north of Springvale it's Mordialloc 
Freeway. Continue further south and it's Peninsula Link, and then 
further it's back to Mornington Peninsula Freeway.


I'm sure the signs on Peninsula Link still say that, but I have seen 
newer/adjusted signs in this northern area which refer to MPF. 
Unfortunately I can't remember exactly where I saw them...


The only consistent thing is the M11 numbering :)

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 15:56, Brendan Barnes  
wrote:


Unfortunately the Major Road Projects Victoria website is not 
compatible with the ODbL, as "no part may be reproduced or used for any 
commercial purposes whatsoever". The press release on their site has no 
other licencing information, so we should treat it as copyright and not 
use it as a source for OSM data.


The Engage Victoria website is CC BY 4.0 (State of Victoria (Department 
of Premier and Cabinet)), but unfortunately we don't have a waiver for.


To ensure data in our database is sourced correctly, we need to collect 
street naming from on-the-ground surveys, compatible imagery providers, 
and any other compatible licence sources.


On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 at 00:07, Adam Horan  wrote:

The existing southern end of this road which was known through 
construction as 'Peninsula Link', and is mapped as such now, should 
probably also be called 'Mornington Peninsula Freeway.'
See relation 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/12622680#map=12/-38.1791/145.1193 
and ways within.
Here is a VicRoads doc referring to upgrades on the southern part, and 
calling it Mornington Peninsula Freeway https://engage.vic.gov.au/mpfu

However roadsigns along the road seem to call it Peninsula Link still.

re the Mordialloc end - the project page is clear that _"The 9km long 
Mordialloc Freeway connects the Mornington Peninsula Freeway in 
Aspendale Gardens to the Dingley Bypass in Dingley Village..."_

https://roadprojects.vic.gov.au/projects/mordialloc-freeway
The press release for opening it calls it Mordialloc Freeway 
https://roadprojects.vic.gov.au/news/mordialloc-freeway-open


On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 22:51, Brendan Barnes  
wrote:


Nice work from the community surveying and mapping so quickly since 
early opening.


There's no KartaView imagery of the extension, and Mapillary isn't 
loading for me right now, so it's hard to weigh-in as an armchair 
mapper.


On sampling some of the ways (example 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/913115111), both name=* and 
official_name=* appear to be sourced correctly and follow the "map 
what's on the ground" good practice.


My only suggestion would be alt_name=* being the same as 
official_name=* is probably redundant.


On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 21:11, Dian Ågesson  wrote:

Hello,

There has been a flurry of activity in South-East Melbourne surrounding 
the opening of the brand new M11 extension. Unfortunately, it seems as 
though sources vary on the name of this new section of road.


The construction has been heavily advertised and promoted as the 
'Mordialloc Freeway'. That is the name of the road on Vicnames as well.


Every roadsign I've seen in the area though uses 'Mornington Peninsula 
Freeway'. Wikipedia (currently) uses that name as well, but the editors 
there seem unsure what to call it as well.


Thoughts?

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Re: [talk-au] Importing 200 emergency markers?

[Ewen Hill]

  Hi Kim,
   I don't think these are standard emergency markers as per EMV/ETSA. They
are normally green with white writing with the three letter id and are one
of two specific styles
(this
one is just outside Mansfield). Whilst the local fire brigades and Belgrave
/ Emerald ambulance stations may have local instructions, I don't think
these are generally available on all emergency services platforms. These
appear to be more internal references for PBR and at eight locations per km
approximately, they are significantly more densely packed than any other
emergency marker identifier.

   It might be worthwhile obtaining the standard waver from PBR which could
confirm the status of the markers as well. As they are not standard,
perhaps consider adding a few more fields, colour=white, source= and if
they are all on the telephone poles, perhaps identify this as well as
man_made=utility_pole, utility=telecom.

This is a good exercise and I hope you are not deterred.

and this is a trestle bridge!
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-37.74395556=148.0465833=17=4226447237419785=photo

Ewen


On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 22:12, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 26/11/21 9:09 pm, Andrew Davidson wrote:
> > On 26/11/21 18:48, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The markers were installed by the railway, and are maintained by the
> >> railway. They are pole numbers attached to each telegraph pole along
> >> the railway.
> >
> > So they are pole reference numbers that are being used as emergency
> > markers?
>
> Yes.
>
> Being used by the Railway and ESTA as emergency markers.
>
>
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-- 
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill
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Re: [talk-au] Importing 200 emergency markers?

[Kim Oldfield via Talk-au]

On 26/11/21 9:09 pm, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 26/11/21 18:48, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote:

Hi,

The markers were installed by the railway, and are maintained by the 
railway. They are pole numbers attached to each telegraph pole along 
the railway. 


So they are pole reference numbers that are being used as emergency 
markers?


Yes.

Being used by the Railway and ESTA as emergency markers.


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[talk-au] Weird tag (Was Re: Importing 200 emergency markers?)

[Andrew Davidson]

On 25/11/21 22:52, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote:


   


Technically correct but I have added it to the list:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Counterintuitive_key_names

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Re: [talk-au] Importing 200 emergency markers?

[Andrew Davidson]

On 26/11/21 18:48, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote:

Hi,

The markers were installed by the railway, and are maintained by the 
railway. They are pole numbers attached to each telegraph pole along the 
railway. 


So they are pole reference numbers that are being used as emergency markers?

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[talk-au] Emergency markers licence?

[forster]

Hi

If you have rights to that photo and you are going to tag  
highway=emergency_access_point its worth putting the photo on the wiki

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Demergency_access_point

As you say with a 3 letter prefix PBM010 it looks like it was intended  
at some stage for the ESTA data set though it is only recognisable to  
PBR staff and presumably the point of the ESTA markers is that they  
are uniform and recognisable by the public.


Tony



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Re: [talk-au] Importing 200 emergency markers?

[Kim Oldfield via Talk-au]

Hi,

On 26/11/21 5:34 pm, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote:

Further
If the marker looks the same as the bottom photo of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Demergency_access_point


For an example see

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bcvgcPLYmpU25fQB9

This is PBM010. The marker only has the text "010", and does not include 
the "PBM" prefix used by ESTA.


then the dataset is 
https://data.gov.au/data/dataset/esta-emergency-markers/resource/44add10f-a478-4ab0-a6fa-227493663b28


It should be part of the ESTA data set, but I can't find them in that 
data. I'm assuming ESTA haven't included all emergency markers for 
whatever reason - maybe because they aren't signposted in a way that the 
public would recognise.


Regards,
Kim


Tony


Hi

This subject was discussed in October.
The dataset they are sharing is likely to be
https://data.gov.au/data/dataset/esta-emergency-markers/resource/44add10f-a478-4ab0-a6fa-227493663b28 



and it was determined that we do not have the right licence to use 
this data.


I say likely to be the same dataset, I am fairly sure but no guarantee.

Tony


Are these emergency markers created and maintained by the Puffing Billy
Railway?

If not they might be sharing a dataset with you that they don't have
permission to share for this purpose?

Adam

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 16:24,  
wrote:


Maybe just create a simple page on the wiki describing what you 
intent to
do along with a link to information about the received permission? 
Just to

make it easier to find in the future if there are any concerns.



*From:* Andrew Harvey 
*Sent:* Friday, 26 November 2021 13:46
*To:* Kim Oldfield 
*Cc:* OSM-Au 
*Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Importing 200 emergency markers?



That sounds fine to me, this email consulting with the community,
informing of your plan and what steps you've taken is enough in my 
opinion.




I would ask if you could share more information about the 
permission you
obtained? So long as you have sufficient rights to submit the data 
under

the OSM contributor terms.



On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 04:56, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

Hi,

I have a list of 200 emergency marker locations along 22km of the
Puffing Billy Railway which were provided to me by the railway with
permission to include them in OSM.

I've been reading through https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import -
most of which appears to be geared toward larger imports and using
publicly available data with various licenses. The data for my 
import is
not publicly available, and was provided to me when I asked to 
import it

into OSM.

I've searched overpass-turbo and there are no
highway=emergency_access_points, name~"PBM", or ref~"PBM" near the 
list

of nodes I have to import. This indicates that none of the nodes are
already mapped.

Based on the example file on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM_file_format I've converted 
the

emergency marker list into xml, the start of which looks like:




  
  

...

In JOSM I can import this file and merge the layer. I'm intending to
then upload this with appropriate an comment noting that the data was
provided by Puffing Billy Railway with permission to include it in 
OSM.


I'm proposing to import this as a one off, single change set under my
existing OSM username.

Is this a reasonable way to do this import? Is there anything else I
should do?

Regards,
Kim





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