Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: This is a false dichotomy. There is at least one more perspective: you (meaning OSMF and OSM contributors) suck it up and deal with the consequences of your actions. What's happening now was predicted way back, and I know I told you so doesn't actually help anybody, but it does mean it's unreasonable for you to act all surprised and offended about what's going on. That's the point. I'm not surprised, I'm not offended. I believe the disgruntled have made their point, and I definitely supported them while the debate was active. Now that it's over, and a done deal, I think it would be much better for them to now (begrudingly, reluctantly, ...) tick the damn box and move on. I wouldn't even be surprised or particularly offended if they also chose to have nothing further to do with this community. But to put in thousands of hours of work to create free map data that can be used by anyone, and then to finish up having contributed nothing strikes me as a spectacularly selfish act of self-immolation. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: That's the point. I'm not surprised, I'm not offended. I believe the disgruntled have made their point, and I definitely supported them while the debate was active. Now that it's over, and a done deal, I think it would be much better for them to now (begrudingly, reluctantly, ...) tick the damn box and move on. As I said before, it's just not that simple. But to put in thousands of hours of work to create free map data that can be used by anyone, and then to finish up having contributed nothing strikes me as a spectacularly selfish act of self-immolation. Is it selfish of Google or Nearmap to not allow use of their data under the ODbL and CTs? -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: This is the OSM community here. We're on an OSM mailing list. From the perspective of this community, John Smith's contributions are not usable. Certainly, he's made a valuable contribution to other communities elsewhere - but not this one. The complaint was that this community was unappreciative of his contribution - to which the response is that there is no contribution to this community. The community has rejected the contributions. They were made, in good faith, under the licence that had been agreed to at the time. Let's extend it further. John Smith shows up at my birthday party driving a new Mercedes which is his present to me. Then in conversation I let slip that I'm a Family First supporter. He says if you don't change your mind, you can't have the car. Holy crap, you really don't understand what's happened here at all. Really, you told him his car's not worth shit and you don't want it unless he also joins Family First. Even though yesterday you said you'd like it and he should get it for you at considerable personal effort. Have we stretched this analogy past breaking yet? Refusing to accept the outcome (or rather, persisting vainly with the idea that maybe it will change), and refusing to accept the CTs amounts to blackmail at this point. I think you've got the blackmail finger pointed in the wrong direction. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
lol again... you've gotta love argument by analogy... :) jim On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: Really, you told him his car's not worth shit and you don't want it unless he also joins Family First. Even though yesterday you said you'd like it and he should get it for you at considerable personal effort. _ Jim Croft ~ jim.cr...@gmail.com ~ +61-2-62509499 ~ http://about.me/jrc 'A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point of doubtful sanity.' - Robert Frost, poet (1874-1963) Please send URLs, not attachments: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: The community has rejected the contributions. They were made, in good faith, under the licence that had been agreed to at the time. Look, I don't think there's anyone on this list that particularly likes the way the license change was handled. Certainly not me. But sometimes shit happens, and we can either move forward, or keep banging our heads against the wall complaining about wretchedly unfair it all is. Refusing to accept the CTs will not change the CTs and it won't change the licence used by OSM. All it does is cause that data to be deleted. Really, you told him his car's not worth shit and you don't want it unless he also joins Family First. Even though yesterday you said you'd like it and he should get it for you at considerable personal effort. Yep, there's no question whatsoever that I (meaning OSMF) have behaved like a complete dick. Now, do we continue this game of well, you behaved like a dick, so I'm going to behave like a dick, or do we take the higher moral ground of well, you behaved like a dick, but I joined this project for the good of the greater community, and I'm not going to let my hurt feelings get in the way of that. What's more important - the ideological dispute with OSMF, or building an awesome map database? Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: He isn't taking anything away. Those contributions were may under the CC-BY-SA license. You are free to continue using them under the CC-BY-SA license. OSM wants more rights than that. JohnSmith doesn't agree, and is within his rights not too. That isn't the same as taking back the original CC-BY-SA grant. This is the OSM community here. We're on an OSM mailing list. From the perspective of this community, John Smith's contributions are not usable. Certainly, he's made a valuable contribution to other communities elsewhere - but not this one. The complaint was that this community was unappreciative of his contribution - to which the response is that there is no contribution to this community. To correct your analogy, JohnSmith gave you an amazing birthday present which you asked for, but now you decide you don't want it anymore and you don't know how to dispose of it so you are blaming the person who gave it to you. Let's extend it further. John Smith shows up at my birthday party driving a new Mercedes which is his present to me. Then in conversation I let slip that I'm a Family First supporter. He says if you don't change your mind, you can't have the car. Well, I can't, and won't, so he refuses to hand me the keys. Although he leaves it parked on the lawn for a few months and kills the grass. It's his decision, and I can live with the dead grass, but to complain about ingratitude on my part is simply unfair. We've had the debate about the switch to ODbL. I wasn't a big fan either, but the debate has been had, and the matter is settled. Refusing to accept the outcome (or rather, persisting vainly with the idea that maybe it will change), and refusing to accept the CTs amounts to blackmail at this point. The maxspeed change kept in tack the full history of the original object. All you have to do is roll back your objects to the last CT clean version, and work forwards from there. All you have to do - yes. As several messages have pointed out, it's actually a bit of work, and quite complex. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
not big on socratic logic, but best OSM ROFL analogy so far this year... :) jim On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Let's extend it further. John Smith shows up at my birthday party driving a new Mercedes which is his present to me. Then in conversation I let slip that I'm a Family First supporter. He says if you don't change your mind, you can't have the car. Well, I can't, and won't, so he refuses to hand me the keys. Although he leaves it parked on the lawn for a few months and kills the grass. It's his decision, and I can live with the dead grass, but to complain about ingratitude on my part is simply unfair. -- _ Jim Croft ~ jim.cr...@gmail.com ~ +61-2-62509499 ~ http://about.me/jrc 'A civilized society is one which tolerates eccentricity to the point of doubtful sanity.' - Robert Frost, poet (1874-1963) Please send URLs, not attachments: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 1:32 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: That's a pretty lame example. It'd be more like if I dropped off said car, you decide the block off the lane way behind your house and then complain you can't use the car because I should supply a crane to move it after the road rules were changed... Well, I guess that's the heart of the matter. I don't see much comparison between please tick this box and supplying a crane. The point is you're still fighting a battle which is well and truly finished, and your options are to either tick the box, or to in effect erase all the hard work you've put in. To take the latter course of action is both throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and cutting off your nose to spite your face - since we're being metaphorical and all that. Steve (Yes, you may argue that it's not you doing the erasing, it's OSMF, but the effect is identical.) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I just love the admiration people give out for those that spent a lot of time and effort trying to make OSM the best map possible, only to throw away all the hard work and throw insults in the faces of people. Let's recap: 1) You did lots of hard work creating content 2) You applied the maxspeed change 3) You refused to accept the contributor terms Now, 3) totally negates the benefit of 1). It's actually worse than if you had never contributed anything at all, because the net effect for us is a lot of wasted effort in trying to work around your contributions. And 2) makes all this much worse again. So, regardless of how much time and effort you've actually put in, as far as I see your overall contribution to OSM, it's negative. You have harmed this project more than you have helped it. Sorry, but it's true. Buying someone the most amazing birthday present counts for nothing if you take it away from them again. So, John, if you'd like to tick that little box that indicates acceptance of the CTs, then I'd be happy to shower you with admiration and gratitude. If not, it's hard to see what we have to be grateful for: your contribution to the OSM database will be precisely zero. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Let's recap: 1) You did lots of hard work creating content 2) You applied the maxspeed change 3) You refused to accept the contributor terms Now, 3) totally negates the benefit of 1). It's actually worse than if you had never contributed anything at all, because the net effect for us is a lot of wasted effort in trying to work around your contributions. And 2) makes all this much worse again. So, regardless of how much time and effort you've actually put in, as far as I see your overall contribution to OSM, it's negative. You have harmed this project more than you have helped it. Sorry, but it's true. Buying someone the most amazing birthday present counts for nothing if you take it away from them again. He isn't taking anything away. Those contributions were may under the CC-BY-SA license. You are free to continue using them under the CC-BY-SA license. OSM wants more rights than that. JohnSmith doesn't agree, and is within his rights not too. That isn't the same as taking back the original CC-BY-SA grant. To correct your analogy, JohnSmith gave you an amazing birthday present which you asked for, but now you decide you don't want it anymore and you don't know how to dispose of it so you are blaming the person who gave it to you. The maxspeed change kept in tack the full history of the original object. All you have to do is roll back your objects to the last CT clean version, and work forwards from there. So, John, if you'd like to tick that little box that indicates acceptance of the CTs, then I'd be happy to shower you with admiration and gratitude. If not, it's hard to see what we have to be grateful for: your contribution to the OSM database will be precisely zero. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
