Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
Thanks! Graeme On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 at 16:52, Andrew Davidson wrote: > Looks OK to me. > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 at 19:29, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > Yes - at least if no conflicting edits were > done later. > > Otherwise it may be necessary to copy > earlier text. > Wasn't able to simply revert the changes due to "other conflicting edits", so re-pasted previous data. Could somebody please have a look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative#Table_1:_Countries_using_admin_level_3.E2.80.9310 & see if Oz now looks the same as it used to ‽ Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
12 Sep 2020, 03:41 by graemefi...@gmail.com: > > > > > On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 20:01, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <> > talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > wrote: > >> >> >> >> Sep 2, 2020, 06:06 by >> thesw...@gmail.com>> : >> >>> On 2/09/2020 10:38 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: >>> Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but no, I certainly don't remember any discussion? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10=prev=2012028 Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that doesn't help me much either? >>> >>> Sigh. >>> >>> He is a serial offender: >>> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-October/013009.html >>> >>> There was no discussion. I'd suggest that the changes to the wiki page >>> should be reverted. >>> >> I posted on their talk page on Wiki with request to explain what is the >> source of change + >> mailing list links. >> >> See >> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aaronsta=2028532=1185639 >> >> BTW, if he is serial offender why noone ever commented on their talk page? >> Maybe it would help and they have some good point? >> > > So are we in agreement that this change should be reverted? > > & if so, how is it done? Is it just a matter of clicking the "undo" button on > that edit, leaving a comment & that's it? > Yes - at least if no conflicting edits were done later. Otherwise it may be necessary to copy earlier text. (Exactly like with OSM reverts of OSM map data)___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 20:01, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > > > Sep 2, 2020, 06:06 by thesw...@gmail.com: > > On 2/09/2020 10:38 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but > no, I certainly don't remember any discussion? > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10=prev=2012028 > > Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that > doesn't help me much either? > > > Sigh. > > He is a serial offender: > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-October/013009.html > > There was no discussion. I'd suggest that the changes to the wiki page > should be reverted. > > I posted on their talk page on Wiki with request to explain what is the > source of change + > mailing list links. > > See > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aaronsta=2028532=1185639 > > BTW, if he is serial offender why noone ever commented on their talk page? > Maybe it would help and they have some good point? > So are we in agreement that this change should be reverted? & if so, how is it done? Is it just a matter of clicking the "undo" button on that edit, leaving a comment & that's it? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
On 2/09/2020 7:59 pm, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote: BTW, if he is serial offender why noone ever commented on their talk page? Because people have been using changeset comments to try an engage with the user: https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=438078 ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
Sep 2, 2020, 06:06 by thesw...@gmail.com: > On 2/09/2020 10:38 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > >> >> Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but no, >> I certainly don't remember any discussion? >> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10=prev=2012028 >> >> Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that >> doesn't help me much either? >> > > Sigh. > > He is a serial offender: > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-October/013009.html > > There was no discussion. I'd suggest that the changes to the wiki page should > be reverted. > I posted on their talk page on Wiki with request to explain what is the source of change + mailing list links. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aaronsta=2028532=1185639 BTW, if he is serial offender why noone ever commented on their talk page? Maybe it would help and they have some good point? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
I agree with reverting the changes in the wiki in regard to Administrative Boundaries. Mike King's comments supporting boundaries for (1) country, (2) state, (3) LGA and (4) suburb are consistent with general usage in the wider community and with previous usage in OSM. There are other "administrative" boundaries established by governments but they are for specialised purposes such as counties and parishes used for property titles, land districts for regulating agriculture, health districts defining which body administers health services in designated areas, "regions, commands and districts" for administering police services, "school education areas" for administering schools and, no doubt, "administrative boundaries" for many other government services at both state and federal levels. However these are really special purpose boundaries which don't belong on the main map, or could be mapped as something other than administrative if there were a reason to include them in OSM. In regard to levels, I had a quick look at other countries but government systems seem too different for me to make broad comparisons. I am a little familiar with Ireland where counties roughly correlate in size and in some functionality with LGAs in Australia. In Ireland, counties are tagged as level 6. In the U.K, counties seem to be generally mapped as level 6 except in Metropolitan areas in England. I had previously perceived level 6 as appropriate for LGAs in Australia and cannot see any reason or need to change it. Further, I am reluctant to move LGAs to a lower level as they are significant in the Australian systems of government. Some individual LGAs in NSW have larger populations than the whole of the Northern Territory. Brisbane City LGA has a population much greater than the whole of Tasmania and not much less than that of South Australia. In terms of area, I believe there is one LGA in Western Australia that has a larger area than the whole of Victoria. I would prefer to have LGAs in Australia at not lower than level 6. I think most suburbs have been mapped as level 10 and that seems OK to me but I have no problem with changing to level 9 if that were agreed. Unless we are intending to map something else at level 10, it doesn't really matter. As I wrote above - I support mapping country, states (& territories), LGAs and suburbs as administrative boundaries so I do not see anything at a lower level being included in Australian administrative boundaries. So I suggest we stick with State and Territory at level 4 LGA at level 6 suburb at level 10 On Wed, 2 Sep 2020, at 4:06 AM, Andrew Davidson wrote: > On 2/09/2020 10:38 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but > > no, I certainly don't remember any discussion? > > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10=prev=2012028 > > > > Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that > > doesn't help me much either? > > Sigh. > > He is a serial offender: > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-October/013009.html > > There was no discussion. I'd suggest that the changes to the wiki page > should be reverted. > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
On 2/09/2020 10:38 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but no, I certainly don't remember any discussion? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10=prev=2012028 Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that doesn't help me much either? Sigh. He is a serial offender: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-October/013009.html There was no discussion. I'd suggest that the changes to the wiki page should be reverted. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
Hi Graeme I’m not sure I can offer any advice on tagging but I’ve worked in land administration and can offer some general guidance on the hierarchy of land classification. My knowledge is mostly Queensland based but I believe all of the states have a similar system given that ultimate authority over land is federal. The nested hierarchy is simply Country>State>LGA>suburb (or locality)>parcel. That is parcels comprise suburbs, suburbs comprise LGAs and LGAs comprise states so there is a complete coverage or fabric over the land and inshore areas. The regions mentioned will most likely not have any admin status unless they are associated with an act of legislation (such as South East Queensland which now has defined boundary of the common participating councils). There may be other areas such as Parishes or Counties which are still used in legal titles but these are largely no longer used for anything other than that due to the fact they were drawn up in an age which predates most modern systems and in a time where the local Church as something people recognised as a centre of an area. Maybe someone working with cadastral fabrics in the states can provide more detail if required. Kind Regards Mike King GIS Specialist NHVR Solutions, Corporate Services National Heavy Vehicle Regulator P: 07 3309 8880 | E: mike.k...@nhvr.gov.au<mailto:mike.k...@nhvr.gov.au> PO Box 492 | Fortitude Valley QLD 4006 Gasworks | Level 3, 76 Skyring Terrace| Newstead QLD 4006 www.nhvr.gov.au<http://www.nhvr.gov.au/> [cid:image001.gif@01D3894F.ABA64A60]<https://www.facebook.com/NHVRegulator/> [cid:image002.png@01D3894F.ABA64A60] <https://twitter.com/nhvr> [cid:image003.gif@01D3894F.ABA64A60] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/national-heavy-vehicle-regulator> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick [mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 2 September 2020 10:38 AM To: OSM-Au Subject: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?) On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 18:39, Andrew Harvey mailto:andrew.harv...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 11:21, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com>> wrote: I looked at the Wiki. It is quite a while since I looked at the section on administrative boundaries. My recollection is that it used to have LGA as admin_level=6 and suburb as level 9 or 10. I do not recall any discussion of inclusion of regions, districts and townsites nor any previous discussion in regard to changing the level of LGA. The wiki includes a link to a downloadable example which is headed "Australian Boundary Tagging _ OSM" but with copyright attributed to Government of Western Australia. I am not sure how the current content of wiki was arrived at. My memory is not perfect so perhaps someone can remind me how the wiki content on administrative boundaries and the WA Government copyright document was reached. In NSW there are land districts defined in legislation with administrative boards etc so they could be included if we could get permission to use the source data (not included in current approval as far as I am aware) and there are probably equivalents in other jurisdictions. I think administrative boundaries must be sourced from government. In NSW, land districts are larger in area than local government areas (LGAs) but their influence and importance is (in my view) much less than LGAs - the Greater Sydney Local Land Services board has the majority of its membership appointed by the Minister for Agriculture and few Sydney residents would even know of its existence or role. I'd want to put them at level 11, certainly not a higher level than the LGAs. I do not think that a larger area automatically warrants a higher administrative level. I am open to changing and developing our guidelines. However some boundaries are not necessarily administrative e.g. Eyre Peninsula (natural region), Barossa Valley District (protected area), Illawarra Region, New England Region. Some boundaries might be tourist labels or have local currency but would need to be mapped as something other than administrative. Sorry I'm getting offtopic here... I'm only familiar with NSW but for example we have a few non-administrative regions/districts mapped Illawarra https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876497 tagged as place=region without an admin_level Northern Beaches https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876483 tagged as place=district without an admin_level Lower North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876484 tagged as place=district without an admin_level Upper North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11373192 tagged as place=district without an admin_level St George https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876480 tagged as place=district without an admin_level others could be added like The Shire, South Coast, Hunter Valley, C
[talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)
On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 18:39, Andrew Harvey wrote: > On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 11:21, cleary wrote: > >> >> I looked at the Wiki. It is quite a while since I looked at the section >> on administrative boundaries. My recollection is that it used to have LGA >> as admin_level=6 and suburb as level 9 or 10. I do not recall any >> discussion of inclusion of regions, districts and townsites nor any >> previous discussion in regard to changing the level of LGA. The wiki >> includes a link to a downloadable example which is headed "Australian >> Boundary Tagging _ OSM" but with copyright attributed to Government of >> Western Australia. I am not sure how the current content of wiki was >> arrived at. My memory is not perfect so perhaps someone can remind me how >> the wiki content on administrative boundaries and the WA Government >> copyright document was reached. >> >> In NSW there are land districts defined in legislation with >> administrative boards etc so they could be included if we could get >> permission to use the source data (not included in current approval as far >> as I am aware) and there are probably equivalents in other jurisdictions. I >> think administrative boundaries must be sourced from government. In NSW, >> land districts are larger in area than local government areas (LGAs) but >> their influence and importance is (in my view) much less than LGAs - the >> Greater Sydney Local Land Services board has the majority of its membership >> appointed by the Minister for Agriculture and few Sydney residents would >> even know of its existence or role. I'd want to put them at level 11, >> certainly not a higher level than the LGAs. I do not think that a larger >> area automatically warrants a higher administrative level. >> >> I am open to changing and developing our guidelines. However some >> boundaries are not necessarily administrative e.g. Eyre Peninsula (natural >> region), Barossa Valley District (protected area), Illawarra Region, New >> England Region. Some boundaries might be tourist labels or have local >> currency but would need to be mapped as something other than administrative. >> > > Sorry I'm getting offtopic here... > > I'm only familiar with NSW but for example we have a few > non-administrative regions/districts mapped > > Illawarra https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876497 tagged as > place=region without an admin_level > Northern Beaches https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876483 tagged as > place=district without an admin_level > Lower North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876484 tagged > as place=district without an admin_level > Upper North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11373192 tagged > as place=district without an admin_level > St George https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876480 tagged as > place=district without an admin_level > others could be added like The Shire, South Coast, Hunter Valley, Central > Coast, Hills District, Eastern Suburbs, Blue Mountains + regional > regions/districts. > > I agree that these are not administrative boundaries so I'm fine with not > giving them an admin_level, and it's a fair argument that these are not > verifiable on the ground, but nonetheless they do exist and people refer to > them frequently in conversation. > > In terms of the admin_level for LGA's I think if we have administrative > regions or not shouldn't really affect the admin_level value too much, I > think going with what most other countries use for > Reposting this as my reply only went to Cleary, not the list, & it seems important enough to follow up. Sorry if it's a bit messy & confused! On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 11:21, cleary wrote: > > I looked at the Wiki. It is quite a while since I looked at the section on > administrative boundaries. My recollection is that it used to have LGA as > admin_level=6 and suburb as level 9 or 10. I had the same vague memory? I do not recall any discussion of inclusion of regions, districts and > townsites nor any previous discussion in regard to changing the level of > LGA. Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but no, I certainly don't remember any discussion? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10=prev=2012028 Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that doesn't help me much either? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
