Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
Hi. Why map any POI at all? I don't map everything - I choose what I think is significant. If you think it is significant that a particular church meets at a particular place, I think add a node. Same for cub scouts. Personally I'm not going to bother mapping where Scouts meet, but I appreciate that someone else might find this significant. - Ben. On 6 July 2010 02:40, Richard Weait wrote: > I'm hesitant to add a node for cub scout meetings at a local school. > I'd be as hesitant to add a node for the church meetings. If there is > a permanent sign for the church or cub scouts at the school, then I > would add a node for them. For this sort of multi-use building, > adding the address and common name is helpful. Chances are that the > church or cub scout web site will refer to the address and / or proper > name. If the church and cub scouts guide their folks by saying > Village Elementary School, 123 Street, My Town, then we would be > serving their interests with the name and address. > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Tue, 2010-07-06 at 02:21 +1000, John Smith wrote: > On 6 July 2010 02:08, David Murn wrote: > > What about.. draw the school as an area/building, then simply put a > > single node for place_of_worship in the hall, maybe with opening_hours > > or something similar. > > So if there is 10 uses/users of the hall, we need to place 10 nodes? Well, I was thinking that. One school I went to, had a public library attached, while another had a child-care run out of a dis-used wing of the school building, I believe both of these could/should be tagged. Maybe there needs to be a tag for multi-use hall, which could be used for even wider applications than this example of a church in a school hall. David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Mark Pulley wrote: > I'm planning to add a local church, but rather than having its own building, > it meets in a local primary school hall. What would be the best way to tag > this? > Should I place a node as usual over the building (place_of_worship= (etc)) > with a note that it meets in the school hall? Is there a better way that > anyone has come across for this situation? I'm hesitant to add a node for cub scout meetings at a local school. I'd be as hesitant to add a node for the church meetings. If there is a permanent sign for the church or cub scouts at the school, then I would add a node for them. For this sort of multi-use building, adding the address and common name is helpful. Chances are that the church or cub scout web site will refer to the address and / or proper name. If the church and cub scouts guide their folks by saying Village Elementary School, 123 Street, My Town, then we would be serving their interests with the name and address. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 6 July 2010 02:08, David Murn wrote: > What about.. draw the school as an area/building, then simply put a > single node for place_of_worship in the hall, maybe with opening_hours > or something similar. So if there is 10 uses/users of the hall, we need to place 10 nodes? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Mon, 2010-07-05 at 17:39 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: > On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Roy Wallace wrote: > > IMHO, No - I don't like the idea of using separate/duplicate features > > (e.g. an extra node) to describe something at the same physical > > location. > ...> So right now, I see four remaining options, IMHO all pretty crappy and > > unsupported: > > The only reason you gave against creating multiple nodes was you > didn't like it. Seems fine to me. Especially since the church and > school in this case are not really co-located: the centre of the > school will not be the same as the centre of the church, so two nodes > is appropriate. What about.. draw the school as an area/building, then simply put a single node for place_of_worship in the hall, maybe with opening_hours or something similar. David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 20:21, wrote: > Interesting as the church as a building is a corruption of the original > meaning I did try to make this point clear by stating organisation v building, however it's a little difficult to geographically map organisations, so all we're left with is mapping buildings. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
> On 5 July 2010 17:39, Steve Bennett wrote: >> The only reason you gave against creating multiple nodes was you >> didn't like it. Seems fine to me. Especially since the church and >> school in this case are not really co-located: the centre of the > > There is no church, they're using a school hall for church based > activities... > > Interesting as the church as a building is a corruption of the original meaning in which the church is the group of people who worship together and the building was a chapel or a meeting hall or some other thing ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 20:06, Steve Bennett wrote: > Which we're not. There is no "on the ground" rule, guideline, axiom, > suggestion or anything. Can we stop using this non-existent guiding > principle? Ok, if we're not tagging physical objects what are we tagging? The gold brick road to Oz? > Yep, this strategy would definitely break down. Although I do think > "place of worship" is a little bit special. Shouldn't the amount of use be more defining? What if it's used for basketball 5 days a week, but church for one hour on Sundays? > The 4 options Roy presented all seem somewhat reasonable, but we need > to make this kind of decision once, on a big scale: "OSM now supports > semicolon-separated value lists: developers please take note". Not > just piecemeal for each individual situation where the current > key=value structure is limiting. OSM has for a long time supported semi-colon separated, but most software doesn't bother to parse it. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 7:18 PM, John Smith > If we're tagging what's on the ground, Which we're not. There is no "on the ground" rule, guideline, axiom, suggestion or anything. Can we stop using this non-existent guiding principle? > then it's a school hall, if you > want to do minor uses this would nearly need to be done as a relation > simply because the primary use should take precedent. What if scouts > also meet there, how about P&C meetings, parent teacher nights, school > dances, how many nodes do you plan to add on the same location for a > single building? Yep, this strategy would definitely break down. Although I do think "place of worship" is a little bit special. The 4 options Roy presented all seem somewhat reasonable, but we need to make this kind of decision once, on a big scale: "OSM now supports semicolon-separated value lists: developers please take note". Not just piecemeal for each individual situation where the current key=value structure is limiting. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 19:27, John Henderson wrote: > Like a Post Office building also acting as a weather-monitoring station, for > example? Just tag the Post Office? They are usually physically distinct, they don't put rain gauges inside a building, they're usually away from the building... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 05/07/10 19:19, John Smith wrote: At most the church (as an organisation) makes use of a location, what's on the ground is a school facility that may have many such uses... Like a Post Office building also acting as a weather-monitoring station, for example? Just tag the Post Office? John H ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 19:09, John Henderson wrote: > On 05/07/10 17:49, John Smith wrote: > >> There is no church, they're using a school hall for church based >> activities... > > "church" is a significant amenity provided by that building, surely. It is, > by all accounts, a place of worship. At most the church (as an organisation) makes use of a location, what's on the ground is a school facility that may have many such uses... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 18:52, Mark Pulley wrote: > Depends on the definition of church. If you mean 'building with pointy roof' > then no (although some church buildings don't have pointy roofs). If you > mean the congregation then yes. Depends on what the map is being used for - > if (for example) someone is looking for a place to attend a church meeting > on a GPS, then it makes sense to appear, the question becomes how best to > tag it. If we're tagging what's on the ground, then it's a school hall, if you want to do minor uses this would nearly need to be done as a relation simply because the primary use should take precedent. What if scouts also meet there, how about P&C meetings, parent teacher nights, school dances, how many nodes do you plan to add on the same location for a single building? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 05/07/10 17:49, John Smith wrote: There is no church, they're using a school hall for church based activities... "church" is a significant amenity provided by that building, surely. It is, by all accounts, a place of worship. John H ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
Quoting John Smith : On 5 July 2010 17:39, Steve Bennett wrote: The only reason you gave against creating multiple nodes was you didn't like it. Seems fine to me. Especially since the church and school in this case are not really co-located: the centre of the There is no church, they're using a school hall for church based activities... Depends on the definition of church. If you mean 'building with pointy roof' then no (although some church buildings don't have pointy roofs). If you mean the congregation then yes. Depends on what the map is being used for - if (for example) someone is looking for a place to attend a church meeting on a GPS, then it makes sense to appear, the question becomes how best to tag it. I've just posted a message to the tagging list, in case someone there has come across a similar situation. Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 17:39, Steve Bennett wrote: > The only reason you gave against creating multiple nodes was you > didn't like it. Seems fine to me. Especially since the church and > school in this case are not really co-located: the centre of the There is no church, they're using a school hall for church based activities... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Roy Wallace wrote: > IMHO, No - I don't like the idea of using separate/duplicate features > (e.g. an extra node) to describe something at the same physical > location. ...> So right now, I see four remaining options, IMHO all pretty crappy and > unsupported: The only reason you gave against creating multiple nodes was you didn't like it. Seems fine to me. Especially since the church and school in this case are not really co-located: the centre of the school will not be the same as the centre of the church, so two nodes is appropriate. Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 5 July 2010 08:50, Roy Wallace wrote: > 3) use two separate relations (one amenity=school and one > amenity=place_of_worship) that both have the building as the sole > member. John might have further thoughts on this [IMHO very hacky] use > of relations. Normally I might suggest this, but are we tagging what the thing is/is mostly used for, or do we also tag every minor use as well? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 11:33 PM, Mark Pulley wrote: > > Should I place a node as usual over the building (place_of_worship= (etc)) > with a note that it meets in the school hall? IMHO, No - I don't like the idea of using separate/duplicate features (e.g. an extra node) to describe something at the same physical location. Ideally, you would tag the building as simultaneously: amenity=school (or townhall) AND amenity=place_of_worship ...but this isn't possible because we require a 1-to-1 key-value mapping (not really sure why, but that's the way it is). So right now, I see four remaining options, IMHO all pretty crappy and unsupported: 1) mash it into: amenity=school;place_of_worship 2) mash it into: amenity:school=yes amenity:place_of_worship=yes 3) use two separate relations (one amenity=school and one amenity=place_of_worship) that both have the building as the sole member. John might have further thoughts on this [IMHO very hacky] use of relations. 4) tag the primary function (so at least one well-established amenity=* tag remains), then tag supplementary functions: amenity=school place_of_worship=yes (plus maybe place_of_worship:opening_hours=sunday, etc.) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ben Kelley wrote: > I'm assuming that it meets in that location permanently (as in, it's > regular meetings are always at that location). > > Here I have just put an extra amenity=place_of_worship node at the school. > > - Ben. > > On 4 July 2010 23:49, John Smith wrote: > > It's not really a church if it's a school hall, the church > > (organisation) just uses it occasionally... We have one which meets in the bottom of a three storey building, in the old ten pin bowling alley church level=1 retail level=0 motel level=1 no i haven't mapped it yet so don't go looking ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
I'm assuming that it meets in that location permanently (as in, it's regular meetings are always at that location). Here I have just put an extra amenity=place_of_worship node at the school. - Ben. On 4 July 2010 23:49, John Smith wrote: > It's not really a church if it's a school hall, the church > (organisation) just uses it occasionally... > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
On 4 July 2010 23:33, Mark Pulley wrote: > I'm planning to add a local church, but rather than having its own building, > it meets in a local primary school hall. What would be the best way to tag > this? It's not really a church if it's a school hall, the church (organisation) just uses it occasionally... I don't think there has been much discussion about occasional occupation of other locations... You might want to post to the tagging mailing list to see what people in other countries have done... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] How to tag a church without its own building
I'm planning to add a local church, but rather than having its own building, it meets in a local primary school hall. What would be the best way to tag this? Should I place a node as usual over the building (place_of_worship= (etc)) with a note that it meets in the school hall? Is there a better way that anyone has come across for this situation? Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
