Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
Jul 27, 2022, 10:40 by stevea...@softworkers.com: > On Jul 27, 2022, at 1:02 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 27/7/22 17:13, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote: >> >>> is it clearly signposted as cannabis factory farm at its location? >>> > > I sincerely doubt this would ever happen, but if it did, you can bet their > security is much, much better than any bad intentions you might have. BTW, > “mapping” (per se, as we do in OSM), is not a “bad intention.” (I’d say it’s > a GOOD intention). > Mapping secret location of shelter for women / men who are victims of spousal abuse or Christian place of worship in Saudi Arabia would be almost certainly a bad idea. Though if this cannabis growers publish aerial view of own locations then this "secret" is likely more of branding and promotion. (though maybe someone may want to let them know about this inconsistency) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
On 27/7/22 17:13, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote: If something is not really verifiable at location (anonymous note may be lying!) It's more amusing than that. They left the blinds open and put up the Bat Signal: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/21/pink-sky-mildura-victoria-australia-medicinal-cannabis-marijuana-plant The site is so "secret" you can view any number of aerial obliques on their website to figure out where it is: https://www.canngrouplimited.com/facilities ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
On Jul 27, 2022, at 1:02 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 27/7/22 17:13, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote: >> is it clearly signposted as cannabis factory farm at its location? I sincerely doubt this would ever happen, but if it did, you can bet their security is much, much better than any bad intentions you might have. BTW, “mapping” (per se, as we do in OSM), is not a “bad intention.” (I’d say it’s a GOOD intention). > No. A friend of mine went past such a farm on a back road... and was pulled > over for questioning.. just for going past. There are no signs nor any > publicity about there existence. They don't want people to know as as to stop > some people coming by to take some of the crop. If the “farm back road” were private, I can see a landowner / their agent being able to do this or something like it to trespass you. If the road were public, only police could “pull you over for questioning,” and besides, this is bullshit, as you had committed no crime or traffic infraction. Who cares if “they don't want people to know”? There is a farm there: map it. I don’t follow Warin’s story about what his friend did or what happened; something doesn’t sound right about that. > Simply map it as farm land. The crop may change .. e.g. crop rotation. You could. But if it weren’t posted, but, say, you personally know of it otherwise, and it is verifiable (perhaps you could look in local records to find a business license or something like that), you could still map it. It feels like there is a lot that isn’t being said here. Graeme put “secret” in quotes, but there really isn’t such a thing when it comes to mapping, am I not correct? If YOU know "something is right here,” and it is verifiable, there aren’t any secrets. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
On 27/7/22 17:13, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au wrote: is it clearly signposted as cannabis factory farm at its location? No. A friend of mine went past such a farm on a back road... and was pulled over for questioning.. just for going past. There are no signs nor any publicity about there existence. They don't want people to know as as to stop some people coming by to take some of the crop. Simply map it as farm land. The crop may change .. e.g. crop rotation. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
is it clearly signposted as cannabis factory farm at its location? If yes, then mapping it likely would be fine. If it is clearly signposted but it is not verifiable by survey then some more generic tagging should be fine. If something is not really verifiable at location (anonymous note may be lying!) then it is not really mappable (there are rare exceptions, for example for borders but they do not apply here) Jul 27, 2022, 02:31 by graemefi...@gmail.com: > Have just spotted a Note where an anonymous user has given company name & > address details for a Medicinal Cannabis plant. > > Checking to confirm details & found a news article that said, yes, the plant > is near Mildura, but "Due to the nature of its business, however, it has a > secret location and isn’t open to the public." > > The company involved doesn't have the plant address listed on it's website. > > Should we map it? > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
On Jul 26, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 at 10:42, stevea wrote: > We map cannabis facilities in California; cannabis is legal here. > > Production facilities, or only shops? I have mapped several shops, as their location must "thread careful needles," like being so many thousands of feet away from schools and such, so they are necessarily located in what are relatively out-of-the way places. If I knew of "industrial plants (for cannabis)" — heh, see what I did there?! — I WOULD map them, but again, I might not necessarily include a name=* tag, especially if they were quite closed to the public (as most "industrial plants" are). My point is, they are legal, they are not "top secret" (like a military facility, for which we have specific tagging, and laws-on-the-ground which REALLY guide what is legal, expected human behavior regarding these facilities). And again, if they are especially strict with access=no (as I imagine they would be, with "upped" surveillance like gates, guards, fences, cameras...these are mappable, too), then include an access=no tag to underscore that "they are there, they are not there for YOU." > I am of the opinion that "if it is in the world, it can be mapped." There > are things that people say we SHOULD not map, and I have even seen some > well-reasoned arguments which cause me to nod my head. > > Yeah, discussion also on Discord is concerning Verifiability - is there a > sign out the front which says what it is? I've had discussion about this regarding key:owner on our wiki. [1] If it IS a sign (plaque, building dedication stone...) that asserts actual, current ownership, that is certainly definitive, and has every reason to enter OSM. But "government records" (I argue in the Talk page of that wiki) can also be used, as long as this practice doesn't hew too closely to turning OSM into a "cadastral-like database of land- and business-ownership information." I mean, we map fast_food restaurants (businesses, yes, these ARE open to the public), along with their opening_hours, website, phone_number...etc., so we certainly can map OTHER businesses. Even those not open to the public (it's good as we denote that). But again, a polygon of the outline of the building tagged building=industrial is at least a start, and such "little starts" are frequently how good, verifiable, reliable data are "built up" (over time) in OSM. > (I note with some amusement that you cay "Cannabis 'plant'" > > LOL! :-) Once in a while, mild linguistic ambiguity can (and does) give rise to mild amusement. [1] https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:owner , and see its Talk page, too. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
Graeme and Steve, I think Steve is pretty close to my thoughts in his last para. My thoughts are ... Is it generally known?Has it been verifiedCould publication on OSM pose a risk I think keeping it as a general tag for the time being sounds reasonable. Ewen Sent from Mail for Windows From: steveaSent: Wednesday, 27 July 2022 10:44 AMTo: Graeme FitzpatrickCc: OSM-AuSubject: Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities? On Jul 26, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:> Have just spotted a Note where an anonymous user has given company name & address details for a Medicinal Cannabis plant.> > Checking to confirm details & found a news article that said, yes, the plant is near Mildura, but "Due to the nature of its business, however, it has a secret location and isn’t open to the public." > > The company involved doesn't have the plant address listed on it's website.> > Should we map it? We map cannabis facilities in California; cannabis is legal here. I am of the opinion that "if it is in the world, it can be mapped." There are things that people say we SHOULD not map, and I have even seen some well-reasoned arguments which cause me to nod my head. For example, I once mapped some hiking trails (as access=no) on closed-to-the-public land. I was asked by the owner (land steward, really; ownership is a "public land trust") to remove them, as he convinced me that "these trails are still under development, they are not yet 'real' trails, but will be after they are developed and the land is properly opened to the public." You might choose to use "more generic" tags, like building=industrial and "leave it at that." (I note with some amusement that you cay "Cannabis 'plant'" and that could be a manufacturing facility, or a rooted dicotyledon growing in the earth — I assume the former). Adding something like access=private couldn't hurt (if true).___Talk-au mailing listTalk-au@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
Thanks, Steve On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 at 10:42, stevea wrote: > > We map cannabis facilities in California; cannabis is legal here. > Production facilities, or only shops? I am of the opinion that "if it is in the world, it can be mapped." There > are things that people say we SHOULD not map, and I have even seen some > well-reasoned arguments which cause me to nod my head. Yeah, discussion also on Discord is concerning Verifiability - is there a sign out the front which says what it is? You might choose to use "more generic" tags, like building=industrial and > "leave it at that." Yep, that may be the best option? > (I note with some amusement that you cay "Cannabis 'plant'" LOL! :-) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
On Jul 26, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Have just spotted a Note where an anonymous user has given company name & > address details for a Medicinal Cannabis plant. > > Checking to confirm details & found a news article that said, yes, the plant > is near Mildura, but "Due to the nature of its business, however, it has a > secret location and isn’t open to the public." > > The company involved doesn't have the plant address listed on it's website. > > Should we map it? We map cannabis facilities in California; cannabis is legal here. I am of the opinion that "if it is in the world, it can be mapped." There are things that people say we SHOULD not map, and I have even seen some well-reasoned arguments which cause me to nod my head. For example, I once mapped some hiking trails (as access=no) on closed-to-the-public land. I was asked by the owner (land steward, really; ownership is a "public land trust") to remove them, as he convinced me that "these trails are still under development, they are not yet 'real' trails, but will be after they are developed and the land is properly opened to the public." You might choose to use "more generic" tags, like building=industrial and "leave it at that." (I note with some amusement that you cay "Cannabis 'plant'" and that could be a manufacturing facility, or a rooted dicotyledon growing in the earth — I assume the former). Adding something like access=private couldn't hurt (if true). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Mapping "secret" facilities?
Have just spotted a Note where an anonymous user has given company name & address details for a Medicinal Cannabis plant. Checking to confirm details & found a news article that said, yes, the plant is near Mildura, but "Due to the nature of its business, however, it has a secret location and isn’t open to the public." The company involved doesn't have the plant address listed on it's website. Should we map it? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
