Re: [talk-au] surface tag
On 24/10/2012 10:20 AM, Ian Sergeant wrote: On 24 October 2012 08:05, Andrew Laughton laughton.and...@gmail.com wrote: I my humble opinion, surface=unpaved should not be used. surface=paved should only be used is the surface is literally paved with brick, bluestone, cobblestone, whatever. I think, regardless of the validity of your argument, that this horse has well and truly bolted. Agreed. I had a go at proposing a solution to the surface/smoothness debacle/edit war back in 2008. But that was four years ago, and the horse has now probably dies from old age. Pity really, because the smoothness tag ended up getting accepted with some (in my opinion) pretty useless values. Matt ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] surface tag
Hi People Sorry if this has already been stated, I have not mapped since the licence change and I am only reading some emails. I my humble opinion, surface=unpaved should not be used. surface=paved should only be used is the surface is literally paved with brick, bluestone, cobblestone, whatever. surface=asphalt should be used for asphalt or bitumen. surface=gravel should be used for gravel roads. surface=dirt should be used if there is no surface covering, the track has been literally made out of whatever the ground is made out of. Think fire breaks. surface=sand where there is no surface covering, but the ground is sand or very sandy. surface=concrete for concrete bike or walking tracks. surface=wood for wooden walkways, jetty's and so forth. I even have a faint memory of using surface=grass, where the track was very overgrown, but too many tags might not be so good for rendering machines. I do not think I ever used it, but I think there is a smoothness tag which might be worth some research if you are worried about a track falling between 4x4_only=[recommended; yes;no]. The 4x4_only tag might be better left to legal definitions set by rangers. As well as a speed_limit tag, thought should be given to a speed_avg tag. Some roads might have a legal speed limit of 100 kmh, but you can be lucky to get out of second gear because of the rough road surface, or even heavily used roads that are normally very crowded, and the average speed is actually not very fast. The speed_avg tag would be handy for routing engines. My 2 cents worth. Andrew. On 21 October 2012 12:03, dban...@internode.on.net wrote: Hi Folks, recent I have been going over parts of OSM mapped some time ago, following up on the infamous redaction. One thing that jumps out at me is the inconsistent tagging of dirt roads. Even, I must say, ones I have done myself but over a several year time span. So I started to write some notes for myself and thought that maybe I should add them to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Roads_Tagging I don't think this is inconsistent with whats there now, just more detailed. However, I do suggest that we need consider what the rendering engines do with our data and I know that is a bit naughty. But, in this case, I'd suggest to do otherwise is negligent as it can have quite serious safety issues. So, would people like to comment on what I say here ? If we can reach consensus, I'll graft some of it onto the OSM wiki. Unmade roads These are typically forestry and remote tracks, while they may have been cut initially by a bulldozer they are not regularly maintained and, importantly, are not domed and don't have good run off gutters on the side. Such roads might or might not be single lane, 4x4 only, might be dry weather etc. Be careful about deciding on such restrictions, some people are often surprised at how well a carefully driven conventional vehicle can use these tracks. Highway=track will typically render to a dashed line. highway=track surface=unpaved lanes=[1; 2] 4x4_only=[recommended; yes] source=survey Made but unsealed roads. Many rural roads fit here. There is no asphalt but the roads are 'made' and regularly maintained by, eg, the local council. These roads often have a gravel base, always have dome shape, the middle is somewhat higher than the sides and there is some sort of gutter at the edge. The gutter will usually have run offs to drain water away from the road. Such roads are almost never 4x4_only nor dry weather only. highway=[unclassified; tertiary, secondary] surface=unpaved lanes=[1; 2] source=survey Use of the highway tag on dirt roads. While the selection of tags should not be defined by how current rendering engines display, we cannot ignore the final outcome. In Australia, a lot of dirt roads are quite important and sometimes its necessary to compromise a little to achieve a useful result. So the correct highway tag may be determined by a combination of the purpose of the road and its condition. Tracks are often rendered as dashed lines and most people would understand that means some care may well be needed. Unclassified would indicate a purely local function and is typically rendered as two thin black lines with white between Tertiary roads usually are rendered with two black lines and a coloured fill and many people (incorrectly) interpret that as meaning a sealed road, so maybe mappers should ensure they apply that tag only to dirt roads that are reasonably well maintained. Secondary roads are shown as wider and a different colour than tertiary and are definitely presented as viable routes for people passing through the area. Some care needs be exercised if a dirt road is to be classified as 'secondary'. Discussion Sometimes its hard to balance the description of a road against its purpose. A good example might be the Plenty Highway. This road is probably a track from a road condition
Re: [talk-au] surface tag
On 24 October 2012 08:05, Andrew Laughton laughton.and...@gmail.com wrote: I my humble opinion, surface=unpaved should not be used. surface=paved should only be used is the surface is literally paved with brick, bluestone, cobblestone, whatever. I think, regardless of the validity of your argument, that this horse has well and truly bolted. I even have a faint memory of using surface=grass, where the track was very overgrown, but too many tags might not be so good for rendering machines. I really like the two level tags. Like natural=water, water=bay. Or surface=unpaved, unpaved=gravel This allows a basic parser to make some sense of what is there, and those who care about the detail can drill down. This is the documented method with some tags, but not with others, such is the nature of the beast. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] surface tag
Hi. Common usage is that surface=paved is any kind of sealed road including asphalt. - Ben Kelley On Oct 24, 2012 9:23 AM, Andrew Laughton laughton.and...@gmail.com wrote: Hi People Sorry if this has already been stated, I have not mapped since the licence change and I am only reading some emails. I my humble opinion, surface=unpaved should not be used. surface=paved should only be used is the surface is literally paved with brick, bluestone, cobblestone, whatever. surface=asphalt should be used for asphalt or bitumen. surface=gravel should be used for gravel roads. surface=dirt should be used if there is no surface covering, the track has been literally made out of whatever the ground is made out of. Think fire breaks. surface=sand where there is no surface covering, but the ground is sand or very sandy. surface=concrete for concrete bike or walking tracks. surface=wood for wooden walkways, jetty's and so forth. I even have a faint memory of using surface=grass, where the track was very overgrown, but too many tags might not be so good for rendering machines. I do not think I ever used it, but I think there is a smoothness tag which might be worth some research if you are worried about a track falling between 4x4_only=[recommended; yes;no]. The 4x4_only tag might be better left to legal definitions set by rangers. As well as a speed_limit tag, thought should be given to a speed_avg tag. Some roads might have a legal speed limit of 100 kmh, but you can be lucky to get out of second gear because of the rough road surface, or even heavily used roads that are normally very crowded, and the average speed is actually not very fast. The speed_avg tag would be handy for routing engines. My 2 cents worth. Andrew. On 21 October 2012 12:03, dban...@internode.on.net wrote: Hi Folks, recent I have been going over parts of OSM mapped some time ago, following up on the infamous redaction. One thing that jumps out at me is the inconsistent tagging of dirt roads. Even, I must say, ones I have done myself but over a several year time span. So I started to write some notes for myself and thought that maybe I should add them to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Roads_Tagging I don't think this is inconsistent with whats there now, just more detailed. However, I do suggest that we need consider what the rendering engines do with our data and I know that is a bit naughty. But, in this case, I'd suggest to do otherwise is negligent as it can have quite serious safety issues. So, would people like to comment on what I say here ? If we can reach consensus, I'll graft some of it onto the OSM wiki. Unmade roads These are typically forestry and remote tracks, while they may have been cut initially by a bulldozer they are not regularly maintained and, importantly, are not domed and don't have good run off gutters on the side. Such roads might or might not be single lane, 4x4 only, might be dry weather etc. Be careful about deciding on such restrictions, some people are often surprised at how well a carefully driven conventional vehicle can use these tracks. Highway=track will typically render to a dashed line. highway=track surface=unpaved lanes=[1; 2] 4x4_only=[recommended; yes] source=survey Made but unsealed roads. Many rural roads fit here. There is no asphalt but the roads are 'made' and regularly maintained by, eg, the local council. These roads often have a gravel base, always have dome shape, the middle is somewhat higher than the sides and there is some sort of gutter at the edge. The gutter will usually have run offs to drain water away from the road. Such roads are almost never 4x4_only nor dry weather only. highway=[unclassified; tertiary, secondary] surface=unpaved lanes=[1; 2] source=survey Use of the highway tag on dirt roads. While the selection of tags should not be defined by how current rendering engines display, we cannot ignore the final outcome. In Australia, a lot of dirt roads are quite important and sometimes its necessary to compromise a little to achieve a useful result. So the correct highway tag may be determined by a combination of the purpose of the road and its condition. Tracks are often rendered as dashed lines and most people would understand that means some care may well be needed. Unclassified would indicate a purely local function and is typically rendered as two thin black lines with white between Tertiary roads usually are rendered with two black lines and a coloured fill and many people (incorrectly) interpret that as meaning a sealed road, so maybe mappers should ensure they apply that tag only to dirt roads that are reasonably well maintained. Secondary roads are shown as wider and a different colour than tertiary and are definitely presented as viable routes for people passing through the
