Re: [OSM-talk-be] [Tagging] cadastral plan now open data

[André Pirard]

On 2018-09-21 23:22, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 21. Sep 2018, at 21:32, André Pirard > wrote:



The whole cadastral map is offset by that 7m.
...

*Picture 3:* So, I dragged his parcel right onto the wall.
And now it's correctly located, aligned with the fencing all around.



how did you know which source was off, the cadastral map or the 
orthophoto?

The ortophoto is guaranteed with a 20 cm precision all over Wallonia.
On the other hand, all aerial photos cannot be off by the same 7m could 
they?
On the first foot, juxtaposing precisely measured parcels produces huge 
errors that vary all over a village.

I just can't figure.
I did not check if this occurs at gaps when crossing roads or what.
I'm not working for the Cadastre. I pay them ;-)

In Beijing, it was Google Maps that moved.
Satellites (several if I recall) were showing OSM in the right place.

All the best,

André.



...

The Belgian cadastre is not the only one with an error shift.
With JOSM, I have similarly proved that Google Map has a 120m NE 
shift in Beijing.

Nobody noticed it.



it is well known that the chinese government requires all imagery and 
map providers to use chinese algorithms which distort the map 
coordinates systematically, in a way that they remain usable as long 
as your navigation system uses the same algorithms.


Ciao, Martin


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] cadastral plan now open data

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2018-09-21 13:33, Lionel Giard
  wrote:


  
I'm not supporting the addition of this WMS
  neither, as it is more imprecise than others sources for most
  of the data. So the question about the license is not really
  important in that case. The regional sources for buildings,
  parcels, streets,... are almost always with a better
  precision. 

  

What you're not supporting is using that WMS I suppose but
you don't say exactly for what.
The text I prepare also very highly discourages roughly using what
is bearing Cadastre coordinates, but encourages such things as
discovering finding missing house numbers or locality names.
So, regarding "the addition", my opinion is "yes" as long as the
user is informed of the above.
But, unfortunately, [J]OSM did not think of displaying such usage
notes to the user discovering JOSM, installing it, fumbling and GO.

The pity is that this downloadable Opendata is made of local files
that are very inconvenient to use with an editor like JOSM.
Please, keep the WMS going !!!
It would be much better if shapes were on a server similar to WMS
but vector.
And in fact, an idea would be to put it in a second OSM2 server.
The shape data would be converted to OSM2, as imprecise as it may
be, but maybe with heuristic tags.
Then the user would evaluate if the position is correct, copy
OSM2->OSM and shift it to the right location.
The Cadastre polygons usually have a good shape (thanks goodness)
but are often in the wrong location.
That is just a last resort alternative way of doing.
Using AreaSelect to map houses including numbers is more
straightforward and preferred for buildings.

In fact, I strongly suggested that any OSM editor displayed
the terms in the server metadata the first time the server is used,
whenever they change and periodically. JOSM strongly refuses to do
that.
They refuse to display that a server strongly forbids using
its data and they act as if that they could be able to list all of
the allowed servers of the 89291 ones.
And the very partial JOSM database should be repeated for every OSM
editor.
Think of Merkaartor. They've had a configuration for PICC from the
start.
Users start Merkaartor and they see PICC without warning. Maybe they
think they launched a jigsaw puzzle game !!!
And no vigilante ever complained.  And [J]OSM says it's the way of
doing.
Not very logical to me who was accused of what I never did !!!

  
One important thing that the cadastre give, is
  the administrative boundary as it is the authorithy on this
  subject (to keep the cohesion with parcels and administrative
  boundaries) as explained here https://data.gov.be/fr/dataset/b47f2ffd-ebc9-413c-903f-d83af520fcdb
  (you can choose the language at the top left of the page) :
"The General Administration of Patrimonial
Documentation of the FPS Finances was designated by the
other institutes as being the authentic source for this
database and manages it as such" -> this is the layer
  "B_CaPa" in the downloadable data. So this would be the useful
  part of the cadastre, But i don't think we need the wms for
  that, if we want to improve the administrative boundary, we
  can just download the layer and use it as a base, to
  re-position the boundaries.
  

I'm speaking of boundaries in my document too :-(
And especially of the once sought old municipalities.
They have traditionally been different from other sources.
But if they're official...
The characteristic I've noticed is that they avoid crossing parcels.
So, watch who's selling their estates to keep them moving ;-)
It's very convenient to display a WMS layer displaying only
boundaries.

All the best,



  

  André.

  



  
Le ven. 21 sept. 2018 à 12:49, joost schouppe
   a
  écrit :


  
Hi,
  
André asked to include the WMS of this service by
  default in the JOSM repository. A long conversation
  ensued. Some of the confusion is caused by the fact
  that the WMS probably contains outdated license info.
  I have now asked the FOD Finances for a second time to
  clarify this. The ticket was closed, which is probably
  a good thing, as it is probably not a good idea to
  show this data by default in JOSM anyway!
  
  
  
  But even for the license of the downloadable files
 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] cadastral plan now open data

[André Pirard]

On 2018-09-21 12:46, joost schouppe wrote:
Op vr 24 aug. 2018 om 13:58 schreef joost schouppe 
mailto:joost.schou...@gmail.com>>:


Hi,

The cadastral plan is now open data for the entire country!

That's pretty big because:
- for Wallonia, it's the first open vector data with parcels,
buildings, roads and road names.
- contains "underground buildings" which were not available
anywhere AFAIK.
- there's a dataset with roads that have some kind of
"erfdienstbaarheid"/"servitude". This might be of use for certain
dubious paths

But of course, please note:
- there is way more data where this came from - the attributes of
the parcel are not included (like building levels, number of
units, landuse)
- Belgian cadastre data has a bad reputation in general so do not
trust everything you see. The building geometry seems to be quite
poor, especially when it comes to exact positioning, not so much
the shape itself.
- do not trust road name data (it doesn't follow the CRAB name, so
not official in Flanders). Names are often abbreviated
- the roads do not form a network, there are duplicate geometries
and some geometries are outdated by half a century
- there is pretty good metadata included. However, you might find
data that does not follow the explained model

The license file is included in any download. It seems to be
compatible with OSM, but it would be nice if more people give it a
good read. The first one to use it for mapping, does need to add
it to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors

The data is in shapefile format (b!), but Philippe Duchesne
has made a download site where you can get it in geopackage
format. There is also a "view" link. To actually see the data
there, find the big switches to activate the layers you want to
see. The bigger ones take a while to load!

More details:
* Official website:

https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/woning/kadaster/kadastraal-plan

https://finances.belgium.be/fr/particuliers/habitation/revenu_cadastral/plan-cadastral

* Metadata:

https://financien.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20180626_Dataspecificaties.pdf

https://finances.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20180626_Specificationsdata.pdf

* Repackaged into an open data format:
http://data.highlatitud.es/cadaster-belgium/

We think this data will only be usable for validation efforts. If
you think an import could be useful for some of the data in some
places, do not forget to follow the Import Guidelines or risk
having your work reverted.

Happy mapping,
-- 
Joost Schouppe

OpenStreetMap
 | Twitter
 | LinkedIn
 | Meetup




--
Joost Schouppe
OpenStreetMap  | 
Twitter  | LinkedIn 
 | Meetup 




On 2018-09-21 12:46, joost schouppe wrote:

Hi,

André asked to include the WMS of this service by default in the JOSM 
repository. A long conversation ensued. Some of the confusion is 
caused by the fact that the WMS probably contains outdated license 
info. I have now asked the FOD Finances for a second time to clarify 
this. The ticket was closed, which is probably a good thing, as it is 
probably not a good idea to show this data by default in JOSM anyway!
Whether "shown by default" or not, that WMS exists, mappers can use it 
anyway, and it's *very useful **as a _complement_ to be used in parallel 
with JOSM+PICC* (or AGIV I suppose) and *only that*. "only" because I 
have *extremely important* remarks (complete with images) to make about 
the imprecision of that WMS or is it the whole cadastre.


I removed that cadastre JOSM default layer for two reasons.
To avoid mappers jumping on it and mapping (quite generously, pitifully) 
the same imprecise mess that we see now in Wallonia as the result of 
what was started with Potlatch and ID using various inappropriate 
sources instead of using JOSM+PICC/AGIV, which are now in charge of 
correcting those errors.
But before making those remarks, I have to see if that imprecision is of 
the 2018 shape data too or just of the 2017 WMS in which case it would 
be quite appropriate to ask the Finances to upgrade it.
So far, I've had problems browsing the shape data. It seems that it 
contains the same errors as the WMS but I want to be absolutely sure 
before speaking.

Second reason below...
But even for the license of the downloadable files the JOSM team 
seemed a bit worried: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/16693#comment:7
When I read the lic

Re: [OSM-talk-be] cadastral plan now open data

[Lionel Giard]

I'm not supporting the addition of this WMS neither, as it is more
imprecise than others sources for most of the data. So the question about
the license is not really important in that case. The regional sources for
buildings, parcels, streets,... are almost always with a better precision.

One important thing that the cadastre give, is the administrative boundary
as it is the authorithy on this subject (to keep the cohesion with parcels
and administrative boundaries) as explained here
https://data.gov.be/fr/dataset/b47f2ffd-ebc9-413c-903f-d83af520fcdb (you
can choose the language at the top left of the page) :
*"The General Administration of Patrimonial Documentation of the FPS
Finances was designated by the other institutes as being the authentic
source for this database and manages it as such"* -> this is the layer
"B_CaPa" in the downloadable data. So this would be the useful part of the
cadastre, But i don't think we need the wms for that, if we want to improve
the administrative boundary, we can just download the layer and use it as a
base, to re-position the boundaries.

Le ven. 21 sept. 2018 à 12:49, joost schouppe  a
écrit :

> Hi,
>
> André asked to include the WMS of this service by default in the JOSM
> repository. A long conversation ensued. Some of the confusion is caused by
> the fact that the WMS probably contains outdated license info. I have now
> asked the FOD Finances for a second time to clarify this. The ticket was
> closed, which is probably a good thing, as it is probably not a good idea
> to show this data by default in JOSM anyway!
>
> But even for the license of the downloadable files the JOSM team seemed a
> bit worried: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/16693#comment:7
> When I read the license, I felt attribution requierement in the license
> was defined loosely enough that mentioning it under Contributors would be
> enough. It would be nice to hear from other people how they interpret this
> license.
>
> Op vr 24 aug. 2018 om 13:58 schreef joost schouppe <
> joost.schou...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The cadastral plan is now open data for the entire country!
>>
>> That's pretty big because:
>> - for Wallonia, it's the first open vector data with parcels, buildings,
>> roads and road names.
>> - contains "underground buildings" which were not available anywhere
>> AFAIK.
>> - there's a dataset with roads that have some kind of
>> "erfdienstbaarheid"/"servitude". This might be of use for certain dubious
>> paths
>>
>> But of course, please note:
>> - there is way more data where this came from - the attributes of the
>> parcel are not included (like building levels, number of units, landuse)
>> - Belgian cadastre data has a bad reputation in general so do not trust
>> everything you see. The building geometry seems to be quite poor,
>> especially when it comes to exact positioning, not so much the shape itself.
>> - do not trust road name data (it doesn't follow the CRAB name, so not
>> official in Flanders). Names are often abbreviated
>> - the roads do not form a network, there are duplicate geometries and
>> some geometries are outdated by half a century
>> - there is pretty good metadata included. However, you might find data
>> that does not follow the explained model
>>
>> The license file is included in any download. It seems to be compatible
>> with OSM, but it would be nice if more people give it a good read. The
>> first one to use it for mapping, does need to add it to
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors
>>
>> The data is in shapefile format (b!), but Philippe Duchesne has made
>> a download site where you can get it in geopackage format. There is also a
>> "view" link. To actually see the data there, find the big switches to
>> activate the layers you want to see. The bigger ones take a while to load!
>>
>> More details:
>> * Official website:
>>
>> https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/woning/kadaster/kadastraal-plan
>>
>> https://finances.belgium.be/fr/particuliers/habitation/revenu_cadastral/plan-cadastral
>>
>> * Metadata:
>>
>> https://financien.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20180626_Dataspecificaties.pdf
>>
>> https://finances.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20180626_Specificationsdata.pdf
>>
>> * Repackaged into an open data format:
>> http://data.highlatitud.es/cadaster-belgium/
>>
>> We think this data will only be usable for validation efforts. If you
>> think an import could be useful for some of the data in some places, do not
>> forget to follow the Import Guidelines or risk having your work reverted.
>>
>> Happy mapping,
>> --
>> Joost Schouppe
>> OpenStreetMap  |
>> Twitter  | LinkedIn
>>  | Meetup
>> 
>>
>
>
> --
> Joost Schouppe
> OpenStreetMap  |
> Twitter 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] cadastral plan now open data

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

André asked to include the WMS of this service by default in the JOSM
repository. A long conversation ensued. Some of the confusion is caused by
the fact that the WMS probably contains outdated license info. I have now
asked the FOD Finances for a second time to clarify this. The ticket was
closed, which is probably a good thing, as it is probably not a good idea
to show this data by default in JOSM anyway!

But even for the license of the downloadable files the JOSM team seemed a
bit worried: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/16693#comment:7
When I read the license, I felt attribution requierement in the license was
defined loosely enough that mentioning it under Contributors would be
enough. It would be nice to hear from other people how they interpret this
license.

Op vr 24 aug. 2018 om 13:58 schreef joost schouppe :

> Hi,
>
> The cadastral plan is now open data for the entire country!
>
> That's pretty big because:
> - for Wallonia, it's the first open vector data with parcels, buildings,
> roads and road names.
> - contains "underground buildings" which were not available anywhere AFAIK.
> - there's a dataset with roads that have some kind of
> "erfdienstbaarheid"/"servitude". This might be of use for certain dubious
> paths
>
> But of course, please note:
> - there is way more data where this came from - the attributes of the
> parcel are not included (like building levels, number of units, landuse)
> - Belgian cadastre data has a bad reputation in general so do not trust
> everything you see. The building geometry seems to be quite poor,
> especially when it comes to exact positioning, not so much the shape itself.
> - do not trust road name data (it doesn't follow the CRAB name, so not
> official in Flanders). Names are often abbreviated
> - the roads do not form a network, there are duplicate geometries and some
> geometries are outdated by half a century
> - there is pretty good metadata included. However, you might find data
> that does not follow the explained model
>
> The license file is included in any download. It seems to be compatible
> with OSM, but it would be nice if more people give it a good read. The
> first one to use it for mapping, does need to add it to
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors
>
> The data is in shapefile format (b!), but Philippe Duchesne has made a
> download site where you can get it in geopackage format. There is also a
> "view" link. To actually see the data there, find the big switches to
> activate the layers you want to see. The bigger ones take a while to load!
>
> More details:
> * Official website:
>
> https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/woning/kadaster/kadastraal-plan
>
> https://finances.belgium.be/fr/particuliers/habitation/revenu_cadastral/plan-cadastral
>
> * Metadata:
>
> https://financien.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20180626_Dataspecificaties.pdf
>
> https://finances.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20180626_Specificationsdata.pdf
>
> * Repackaged into an open data format:
> http://data.highlatitud.es/cadaster-belgium/
>
> We think this data will only be usable for validation efforts. If you
> think an import could be useful for some of the data in some places, do not
> forget to follow the Import Guidelines or risk having your work reverted.
>
> Happy mapping,
> --
> Joost Schouppe
> OpenStreetMap  |
> Twitter  | LinkedIn
>  | Meetup
> 
>


-- 
Joost Schouppe
OpenStreetMap  |
Twitter  | LinkedIn
 | Meetup

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