Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

2011/11/24 Gerard Vanderveken :
> People tend to judge the book by the cover and not by the content.
> In this respect OSM is no match to StreetView. So, we should not try to
> profilate us against it.
> It will only cause disbelief  and leaves OSM with a stamp of inferiority,
> because there is not the bling bling of StreetView.

I think you are right.

> There are other opportunities, which are more suitable to get attention  for
> OSM and then we can do it with our strong points.
> One example is trage wegen / voies lentes, which get much attention in many
> villages and its councels these days. There we can offer advanced mapping en
> cartography.

yes.

There are many maps that OSM could help the communes / gemeente to draw right.

Why not helping them to get much from OSM by giving some of their data to OSM ?

> If you can't win, don't go to the battle.
indeed

We need to be creative.

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Gerard Vanderveken]

People tend to judge the book by the cover and not by the content.
In this respect OSM is no match to StreetView. So, we should not try to 
profilate us against it.
It will only cause disbelief  and leaves OSM with a stamp of 
inferiority, because there is not the bling bling of StreetView.


There are other opportunities, which are more suitable to get attention  
for OSM and then we can do it with our strong points.
One example is trage wegen / voies lentes, which get much attention in 
many villages and its councels these days. There we can offer advanced 
mapping en cartography.


If you can't win, don't go to the battle.

Ben Abelshausen wrote:


I think you are right in saying that we should not try to force the issue.

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Sander Deryckere > wrote:


Sorry to go off topic, but...

2011/11/24 Ben Abelshausen mailto:ben.abelshau...@gmail.com>>

So I don't think we should react. We should just spread
the word of OSM on a continuous base. Apart from that, if
OSM would suddenly get in the big media, we would also
have a lot of problems with training newbies. The best
system is that of continuous growth, where the older
generation can teach the newer generation. And I'm not
even talking about vandalism here.


I don't think a lot of new users should scare us into not
seeking more visibility for the project.  I think it would be
a very good thing to get more new users involved!

OSM is the best mapping project and free as in free speech!
Everybody should know this...


We should not be scared of seeking visibility,  I know OSM can
handle a lot of new users, and making us visible is also a way to
get a  steady growth. But we should not demand the media to give
us the attention. When we grow bigger, the media will report about
OSM because we're more interesting, and we will have enough
man-power to handle everything. 


If you disrupt that steady process, and you really demand stuff
through laws and lawsuits, I don't think it would end very well.

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Ben Abelshausen]

I think you are right in saying that we should not try to force the issue.

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Sander Deryckere wrote:

> Sorry to go off topic, but...
>
> 2011/11/24 Ben Abelshausen 
>
>>  So I don't think we should react. We should just spread the word of OSM
>>> on a continuous base. Apart from that, if OSM would suddenly get in the big
>>> media, we would also have a lot of problems with training newbies. The best
>>> system is that of continuous growth, where the older generation can teach
>>> the newer generation. And I'm not even talking about vandalism here.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think a lot of new users should scare us into not seeking more
>> visibility for the project.  I think it would be a very good thing to get
>> more new users involved!
>>
>> OSM is the best mapping project and free as in free speech! Everybody
>> should know this...
>>
>>
> We should not be scared of seeking visibility,  I know OSM can handle a
> lot of new users, and making us visible is also a way to get a  steady
> growth. But we should not demand the media to give us the attention. When
> we grow bigger, the media will report about OSM because we're more
> interesting, and we will have enough man-power to handle everything.
>
> If you disrupt that steady process, and you really demand stuff through
> laws and lawsuits, I don't think it would end very well.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Sander Deryckere]

Sorry to go off topic, but...

2011/11/24 Ben Abelshausen 

>  So I don't think we should react. We should just spread the word of OSM
>> on a continuous base. Apart from that, if OSM would suddenly get in the big
>> media, we would also have a lot of problems with training newbies. The best
>> system is that of continuous growth, where the older generation can teach
>> the newer generation. And I'm not even talking about vandalism here.
>>
>
> I don't think a lot of new users should scare us into not seeking more
> visibility for the project.  I think it would be a very good thing to get
> more new users involved!
>
> OSM is the best mapping project and free as in free speech! Everybody
> should know this...
>
>
We should not be scared of seeking visibility,  I know OSM can handle a lot
of new users, and making us visible is also a way to get a  steady growth.
But we should not demand the media to give us the attention. When we grow
bigger, the media will report about OSM because we're more interesting, and
we will have enough man-power to handle everything.

If you disrupt that steady process, and you really demand stuff through
laws and lawsuits, I don't think it would end very well.
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Ben Abelshausen]

> So I don't think we should react. We should just spread the word of OSM on
> a continuous base. Apart from that, if OSM would suddenly get in the big
> media, we would also have a lot of problems with training newbies. The best
> system is that of continuous growth, where the older generation can teach
> the newer generation. And I'm not even talking about vandalism here.
>

I don't think a lot of new users should scare us into not seeking more
visibility for the project.  I think it would be a very good thing to get
more new users involved!

OSM is the best mapping project and free as in free speech! Everybody
should know this...

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Sander Deryckere wrote:

> OSM is no alternative to StreetView. It's an alternative to Google Maps
> though.
>
> So I don't think we should react. We should just spread the word of OSM on
> a continuous base. Apart from that, if OSM would suddenly get in the big
> media, we would also have a lot of problems with training newbies. The best
> system is that of continuous growth, where the older generation can teach
> the newer generation. And I'm not even talking about vandalism here.
>
> I hope you understand what I'm saying.
>
> Regards,
> Sander
>
> 2011/11/24 Julien Fastré 
>
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I am a bit tired to see
>>
>>  - the media talking about the problem of privacy ;
>>  - some institutions (I am thinking to the mayor of Brussels, and
>> "tourism brussels") happy to promote their service /via/ StreetView;
>>
>> And all those things without mentioning the alternative (including OSM).
>>
>> I think we should react.
>>
>> It is time to make speaking about osm with some regional and federal MP.
>> We should make contact with some of them, and give them arguments. Some MP
>> should make interpellation with the theme "you are going to rely on private
>> companies to promote tourism in our region, why don't you use free and
>> opensource tools ?"
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>
>>  question ng street name.
>>>
>>> > The housenumbers were as indicated approximative and way off.
>>> >
>>> > The viewpoints of Google are with distances of 20 m plus and so many
>>> signs
>>> > and even housenumbers (when houses are not at the street border) are
>>> not
>>> > readable on the photo.
>>> > Also Polyglot will be out of luck for decoding sign plates at the bus
>>> stops.
>>>
>>> Oh, I didn't even bother to try to do that yet. Doing it for the
>>> remaining 39000 would most probably not be all right at all... so it
>>> didn't even occur to me.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julien FASTRE
>> http://www.meta-morphoses.be
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

Many politicians, from many different  have signed the Pact of
electronic freedoms (see http://lepacte.be and http://hetpact.be)
about the use of free software, free data and free internet. Signing
was engaging oneself. But we would need to check if they did respect
their promises.

Many do not really understand the problem and see the prie tag.

I bet here with GoogleStreet : many see gratis promotion done by Google.

Going and seeing the MP takes a LOT of energy and time, and is not
really rewarded by the community / users / developpers. I did it for
years and would with pleasure see other doing it

Best regards,

Nicolas

Le 24 novembre 2011 11:48, Julien Fastré  a écrit :
> Hi everybody,
>
> I am a bit tired to see
>
>  - the media talking about the problem of privacy ;
>  - some institutions (I am thinking to the mayor of Brussels, and "tourism
> brussels") happy to promote their service /via/ StreetView;
>
> And all those things without mentioning the alternative (including OSM).
>
> I think we should react.
>
> It is time to make speaking about osm with some regional and federal MP. We
> should make contact with some of them, and give them arguments. Some MP
> should make interpellation with the theme "you are going to rely on private
> companies to promote tourism in our region, why don't you use free and
> opensource tools ?"
>
> Julien
>
>
>>  question ng street name.
>> > The housenumbers were as indicated approximative and way off.
>> >
>> > The viewpoints of Google are with distances of 20 m plus and so many
>> > signs
>> > and even housenumbers (when houses are not at the street border) are not
>> > readable on the photo.
>> > Also Polyglot will be out of luck for decoding sign plates at the bus
>> > stops.
>>
>> Oh, I didn't even bother to try to do that yet. Doing it for the
>> remaining 39000 would most probably not be all right at all... so it
>> didn't even occur to me.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-be mailing list
>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
>
> --
> Julien FASTRE
> http://www.meta-morphoses.be
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Sander Deryckere]

OSM is no alternative to StreetView. It's an alternative to Google Maps
though.

So I don't think we should react. We should just spread the word of OSM on
a continuous base. Apart from that, if OSM would suddenly get in the big
media, we would also have a lot of problems with training newbies. The best
system is that of continuous growth, where the older generation can teach
the newer generation. And I'm not even talking about vandalism here.

I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Regards,
Sander

2011/11/24 Julien Fastré 

> Hi everybody,
>
> I am a bit tired to see
>
>  - the media talking about the problem of privacy ;
>  - some institutions (I am thinking to the mayor of Brussels, and "tourism
> brussels") happy to promote their service /via/ StreetView;
>
> And all those things without mentioning the alternative (including OSM).
>
> I think we should react.
>
> It is time to make speaking about osm with some regional and federal MP.
> We should make contact with some of them, and give them arguments. Some MP
> should make interpellation with the theme "you are going to rely on private
> companies to promote tourism in our region, why don't you use free and
> opensource tools ?"
>
> Julien
>
>
>  question ng street name.
>>
>> > The housenumbers were as indicated approximative and way off.
>> >
>> > The viewpoints of Google are with distances of 20 m plus and so many
>> signs
>> > and even housenumbers (when houses are not at the street border) are not
>> > readable on the photo.
>> > Also Polyglot will be out of luck for decoding sign plates at the bus
>> stops.
>>
>> Oh, I didn't even bother to try to do that yet. Doing it for the
>> remaining 39000 would most probably not be all right at all... so it
>> didn't even occur to me.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-be mailing list
>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Julien FASTRE
> http://www.meta-morphoses.be
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Julien Fastré]

Hi everybody,

I am a bit tired to see

 - the media talking about the problem of privacy ;
 - some institutions (I am thinking to the mayor of Brussels, and "tourism
brussels") happy to promote their service /via/ StreetView;

And all those things without mentioning the alternative (including OSM).

I think we should react.

It is time to make speaking about osm with some regional and federal MP. We
should make contact with some of them, and give them arguments. Some MP
should make interpellation with the theme "you are going to rely on private
companies to promote tourism in our region, why don't you use free and
opensource tools ?"

Julien


 question ng street name.
> > The housenumbers were as indicated approximative and way off.
> >
> > The viewpoints of Google are with distances of 20 m plus and so many
> signs
> > and even housenumbers (when houses are not at the street border) are not
> > readable on the photo.
> > Also Polyglot will be out of luck for decoding sign plates at the bus
> stops.
>
> Oh, I didn't even bother to try to do that yet. Doing it for the
> remaining 39000 would most probably not be all right at all... so it
> didn't even occur to me.
>
> Jo
>
> ___
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> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Jo]

2011/11/24 Gerard Vanderveken :
> Don't rely on the streetnames and housenumbers indicated by Google.
> I was only in my second street and detected a totally wrong street name.
> The housenumbers were as indicated approximative and way off.
>
> The viewpoints of Google are with distances of 20 m plus and so many signs
> and even housenumbers (when houses are not at the street border) are not
> readable on the photo.
> Also Polyglot will be out of luck for decoding sign plates at the bus stops.

Oh, I didn't even bother to try to do that yet. Doing it for the
remaining 39000 would most probably not be all right at all... so it
didn't even occur to me.

Jo

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[Gerard Vanderveken]

Don't rely on the streetnames and housenumbers indicated by Google.
I was only in my second street and detected a totally wrong street name.
The housenumbers were as indicated approximative and way off.

The viewpoints of Google are with distances of 20 m plus and so many 
signs and even housenumbers (when houses are not at the street border) 
are not readable on the photo.

Also Polyglot will be out of luck for decoding sign plates at the bus stops.

As 2012 is an election year for the villages, many streets are and will 
be  in the works, so even the appearance (surface, cycleways) of the 
streets may already be or will be changed since the registration.

Use the derived info with care.
When you see anomalies or big differences with OSM, plan a survey at the 
place.

The streetview can help you with the preparation at what to look out for.

Regards,
Gerard.


eMerzh wrote:


For those who don't read the FR list,  here an answer... (Sorry it's
in french...)

Tl;DR ==> Ok to take some info once in a while (street names & co) but
not systematically ;  (said  by a google employee
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-April/057473.html )



-- Forwarded message --
From: Pieren 
Date: 2011/11/23
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?
To: Discussions sur OSM en français 


2011/11/23 eMerzh :
 


Bien évidemment, les images ne sont pas toute jeune même c'est du même
acabit que les images bing.

Donc voilà, peut-on utiliser les images, dans quel mesure? ,..

   



Euh, j'ai pas compris si tu parles d'images aériennes (référence à
Bing) ou d'images prises depuis le sol (Google Street View).
Concernant les images aériennes, comme le mentionne Thomas, la réponse
est simple : il est interdit de "tracer" directement depuis les
orthophotos (sauf autorisation express comme l'a fait Microsoft/Bing).

Concernant les images prises depuis les Googles cars, c'est plus
compliqué puisqu'on ne "trace" pas directement depuis les photos mais
on retire une information présente sur la photo (par exemple, un
panneau "sens interdit" ou le nom d'une rue si le panneau n'est pas
flouté). Hors, il y a souvent une confusion sur ce sujet concernant
les droits d'auteur. Google est bien le propriétaire des droits des
photos publiées sur StreetView et il est interdit de les reproduire
(les photos) sans leur autorisation. Toutefois, Google n'est pas
propriétaire des rues qu'il a pris en photo (pas encore ;-), ni des
informations contenues dans ces photos. Il est même souvent en
violation du droit lorsqu'il "oublie" de flouter des visages ou des
informations d'ordre privée qu'il publie sans l'autorisation des
personnes concernées (autre vaste débat). Il ne faut pas confondre
"photos" et "contenu des photos".
Il est donc tout à fait légal d'utiliser une photo street view pour
vérifier qu'un panneau "sens interdit" est bien présent à tel endroit.
Mais, et il y a un "mais", faire une utilisation systématique de
StreetView pose d'autres problèmes légaux qui font que ça n'est pas
possible non plus de le faire trop souvent sans l'autorisation de
Google (droit relatif aux collections de données).
La question de l'utilisation de StreetView pour OSM a déjà été posée à
plusieurs reprises à Google et notamment Ed Parsons, porte-parole des
projets géographiques chez Google et qui répond ceci:

 


so checking the odd street names is OK.. but every street name I would suggest 
would represent a bulk feed.
   



qu'on peut traduire approximativement par "vérifier quelques noms de
rue est OK.. mais tous les noms de rues représenterait un usage
massif." (et donc interdit, ndt)

Voir une copie de sa réponse sur cette archive:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-April/057473.html

Pour résumer, utiliser StreetView pour un usage occasionnel, oui; pour
un usage systématique, non. J'ajouterais que StreetView n'est qu'un
instantané parfois ancien et donc que cela ne remplacera jamais la
vérification sur le terrain.
Comme on le voit, c'est un sujet complexe et trop souvent, les gens
préfèrent dire de ne pas le faire "par précaution" mais c'est plus le
résultat d'une culture de la peur que d'une vision éclairée du droit.

Pieren

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[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?

[eMerzh]

For those who don't read the FR list,  here an answer... (Sorry it's
in french...)

Tl;DR ==> Ok to take some info once in a while (street names & co) but
not systematically ;  (said  by a google employee
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-April/057473.html )



-- Forwarded message --
From: Pieren 
Date: 2011/11/23
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-fr] StreetView?
To: Discussions sur OSM en français 


2011/11/23 eMerzh :
> Bien évidemment, les images ne sont pas toute jeune même c'est du même
> acabit que les images bing.
>
> Donc voilà, peut-on utiliser les images, dans quel mesure? ,..
>

Euh, j'ai pas compris si tu parles d'images aériennes (référence à
Bing) ou d'images prises depuis le sol (Google Street View).
Concernant les images aériennes, comme le mentionne Thomas, la réponse
est simple : il est interdit de "tracer" directement depuis les
orthophotos (sauf autorisation express comme l'a fait Microsoft/Bing).

Concernant les images prises depuis les Googles cars, c'est plus
compliqué puisqu'on ne "trace" pas directement depuis les photos mais
on retire une information présente sur la photo (par exemple, un
panneau "sens interdit" ou le nom d'une rue si le panneau n'est pas
flouté). Hors, il y a souvent une confusion sur ce sujet concernant
les droits d'auteur. Google est bien le propriétaire des droits des
photos publiées sur StreetView et il est interdit de les reproduire
(les photos) sans leur autorisation. Toutefois, Google n'est pas
propriétaire des rues qu'il a pris en photo (pas encore ;-), ni des
informations contenues dans ces photos. Il est même souvent en
violation du droit lorsqu'il "oublie" de flouter des visages ou des
informations d'ordre privée qu'il publie sans l'autorisation des
personnes concernées (autre vaste débat). Il ne faut pas confondre
"photos" et "contenu des photos".
Il est donc tout à fait légal d'utiliser une photo street view pour
vérifier qu'un panneau "sens interdit" est bien présent à tel endroit.
Mais, et il y a un "mais", faire une utilisation systématique de
StreetView pose d'autres problèmes légaux qui font que ça n'est pas
possible non plus de le faire trop souvent sans l'autorisation de
Google (droit relatif aux collections de données).
La question de l'utilisation de StreetView pour OSM a déjà été posée à
plusieurs reprises à Google et notamment Ed Parsons, porte-parole des
projets géographiques chez Google et qui répond ceci:

> so checking the odd street names is OK.. but every street name I would 
> suggest would represent a bulk feed.

qu'on peut traduire approximativement par "vérifier quelques noms de
rue est OK.. mais tous les noms de rues représenterait un usage
massif." (et donc interdit, ndt)

Voir une copie de sa réponse sur cette archive:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-April/057473.html

Pour résumer, utiliser StreetView pour un usage occasionnel, oui; pour
un usage systématique, non. J'ajouterais que StreetView n'est qu'un
instantané parfois ancien et donc que cela ne remplacera jamais la
vérification sur le terrain.
Comme on le voit, c'est un sujet complexe et trop souvent, les gens
préfèrent dire de ne pas le faire "par précaution" mais c'est plus le
résultat d'une culture de la peur que d'une vision éclairée du droit.

Pieren

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