Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Glenn Plas]

Hi Jasper,

The amount is dependant on the type of vehicle euronorm, so you cannot
even store this in OSM as it depends on external factors.

It would be a bad idea, even if it wasn't as it is prone to change overtime.

Glenn


On 16-03-16 20:35, Jasper Michels wrote:
> Thank you for the answer Marc and Sander.
> 
> Would have loved to specify the amount, but Sander has a point.
> We can't verify this by survey.
> Will use toll:hgv=yes
> 
> 2016-03-16 20:50 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis  >:
> 
> There is a toll-tag [1]. That page recommends toll=no, toll:hgv=yes
> Is this sufficient ? I don't know whether you want to specify the
> amount as well.
> 
> 
> regards
> 
> m
> 
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toll
> 
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Jasper Michels
> > wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the
> Belgian roads.
> http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
> 
> The amount of toll depends from these factors:
> -Type of street
> -Euro-class Engine
> -Weight
> -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
> 
> Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
> How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
> 
> Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck
> navigation.
> Doesn't seem a lot of work also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die
> wordt beschermd door Avast.
> www.avast.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <#5801676833427620774_3600039573253060037_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
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[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Jasper Michels]

Hi all,

Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the Belgian roads.
http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/

The amount of toll depends from these factors:
-Type of street
-Euro-class Engine
-Weight
-Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)

Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?

Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck navigation.
Doesn't seem a lot of work also.




Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die wordt
beschermd door Avast.
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Marc Gemis]

There is a toll-tag [1]. That page recommends toll=no, toll:hgv=yes
Is this sufficient ? I don't know whether you want to specify the amount as
well.


regards

m

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toll

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Jasper Michels 
wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the Belgian roads.
> http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
>
> The amount of toll depends from these factors:
> -Type of street
> -Euro-class Engine
> -Weight
> -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
>
> Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
> How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
>
> Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck navigation.
> Doesn't seem a lot of work also.
>
>
>
>
> Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die wordt
> beschermd door Avast.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#3600039573253060037_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Glenn Plas]

On 17-03-16 20:19, Jasper Michels wrote:
> ok, i agree.
> 
> But as a side note. I predict the future.

we all do.  Allow me to elaborate extensively

> 
> 30 year later, the databases of the OSM-community will run empty. (If 
> you keep true to these rules)

Centralizing data (which is what you suggest) needs to be done with
relevant information only.

This is the era of distributed databases you can consult through API's.
 So it's a lot better to split in flavours of data and/or enrich them
with combinations.

I'm professionally involved with this subject BTW, I kind of know how
it's organised technically, with the OBU's ( On-Board Unit ) and the GPS
side of it.

It's really not simple to calculate this correctly, even with good
source data.  You don't notice it but GPS devices and derived data is
very complex and inaccurate. There is a combination of weight, euronorm,
type of road and area (country, municipality, contintent).

You might not realise it but there are several different devices for
Germany, Holland, ... all different rules.  We can't even get this
aligned in a thing called Europe to use 1 single device and distributed
databases.  Because we don't like sharing.

Truckers driving around with a hardware menu of 5 devices, they need to
switch on/off at the border's (if they are indicated at all)

Nobody is going to use publicly OSM edited data to calculate invoices to
all those companies in Europe.  So why bother when you can consult it
elsewhere ?  What is the merit of it?  At it's best, it will be purely
indicative at best.

> No more speed limit panes, no more street or place names,...

A bit far fetched.  We humans think in objects and use names, A chair, a
relationship, our kids.  We are not a procedural race, we need identity.

> All running around with our virtual glasses, and our semi automated cars.

quite possibly, but every action gets reaction, nature will try to
balance. I'm not worried.  The question is if the planet isn't blacked
out by then.  Bye bye GPS satellites :)

> http://www.reuters.com/article/netherlands-tech-autos-idUSL5N0OX3S420140616

It doesn't even have to be so drastic, a GPS reflection is sometimes
enough to lower accuracy.  And then we have tunnels, parkings.. I could
go on trying to describe the issues I've encountered the challenges I've
come across the last 10 years, use your imagination.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/21/tesla-autopilot-goes-wrong-videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrwxEX8qOxA

I just know how much can go wrong, we humans make mistakes, so really
leaning back in my seat on this one, from the start.  Ask Tesla how some
of their automated updates went...

Did you know they can raise the height (and they did by some centimetres
once) all the cars by remote update.  Sometimes they release new
features as well (pretty cool in fact)

And sometimes they break shit (badly)

OSM philosophy is exactly what we need to rise to the occasion.

Glenn



> 
> Case Closed.
> 
> 
> 2016-03-17 14:42 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas  >:
> 
> Hi Jasper,
> 
> The amount is dependant on the type of vehicle euronorm, so you cannot
> even store this in OSM as it depends on external factors.
> 
> It would be a bad idea, even if it wasn't as it is prone to change
> overtime.
> 
> Glenn
> 
> 
> On 16-03-16 20:35, Jasper Michels wrote:
> > Thank you for the answer Marc and Sander.
> >
> > Would have loved to specify the amount, but Sander has a point.
> > We can't verify this by survey.
> > Will use toll:hgv=yes
> >
> > 2016-03-16 20:50 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis  
> > >>:
> >
> > There is a toll-tag [1]. That page recommends toll=no, toll:hgv=yes
> > Is this sufficient ? I don't know whether you want to specify the
> > amount as well.
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> > m
> >
> > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toll
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Jasper Michels
> > 
> >>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the
> > Belgian roads.
> > http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
> >
> > The amount of toll depends from these factors:
> > -Type of street
> > -Euro-class Engine
> > -Weight
> > -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
> >
> > Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
> > How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
> >
> > Could be very handy for apps like Osmand 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Jasper Michels]

ok, i agree.

But as a side note. I predict the future.

30 year later, the databases of the OSM-community will run empty. (If  you
keep true to these rules)
No more speed limit panes, no more street or place names,...
All running around with our virtual glasses, and our semi automated cars.

http://www.reuters.com/article/netherlands-tech-autos-idUSL5N0OX3S420140616

Case Closed.


2016-03-17 14:42 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :

> Hi Jasper,
>
> The amount is dependant on the type of vehicle euronorm, so you cannot
> even store this in OSM as it depends on external factors.
>
> It would be a bad idea, even if it wasn't as it is prone to change
> overtime.
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On 16-03-16 20:35, Jasper Michels wrote:
> > Thank you for the answer Marc and Sander.
> >
> > Would have loved to specify the amount, but Sander has a point.
> > We can't verify this by survey.
> > Will use toll:hgv=yes
> >
> > 2016-03-16 20:50 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis  > >:
> >
> > There is a toll-tag [1]. That page recommends toll=no, toll:hgv=yes
> > Is this sufficient ? I don't know whether you want to specify the
> > amount as well.
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> > m
> >
> > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toll
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Jasper Michels
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the
> > Belgian roads.
> > http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
> >
> > The amount of toll depends from these factors:
> > -Type of street
> > -Euro-class Engine
> > -Weight
> > -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
> >
> > Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
> > How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
> >
> > Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck
> > navigation.
> > Doesn't seem a lot of work also.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die
> > wordt beschermd door Avast.
> > www.avast.com
> > <
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  
> <#5801676833427620774_3600039573253060037_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > ___
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> >
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> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Sander Deryckere]

As a general rule, you should map what's on the ground, and you shouldn't
map your local legislation:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality

I know how tempting it is to add this to all roads, so tools support it,
but legislation can change too easily.

So at most, we can tag the type of road for this case (if it's signed on
the road).

2016-03-16 19:24 GMT+01:00 Jasper Michels :

>
> Hi all,
>
> Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the Belgian roads.
> http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
>
> The amount of toll depends from these factors:
> -Type of street
> -Euro-class Engine
> -Weight
> -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
>
> Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
> How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
>
> Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck navigation.
> Doesn't seem a lot of work also.
>
>
>
>
> Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die wordt
> beschermd door Avast.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#1010004827960638429_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Marc Gemis]

The virtual glasses need a database (or many database) with all
information they have to display. Those databases can be run by
government, large corporations or  communities.

Furthermore OSM is used for more things than just (car) navigation.
What if a real-estate site wants to show you all houses that are
located in a living street ? Or that are located within 5 kms of a
school and a supermarket ? You need to have a database with speed
limits, road classifications, POIs, etc. Will this database come from
OSM or the government ?  Is this the same database that is driving the
virtual glasses ? Are the license fees for this centralized database
so high that there is room for free community driven databases ? I
don't know (I cannot predict the future :-) ) but there is some
similarity with the current situation, not ? Why map for OSM when
there is Google Maps ?


So perhaps there is room for a non-empty OSM database in that world as well

m

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Jasper Michels  wrote:
> ok, i agree.
>
> But as a side note. I predict the future.
>
> 30 year later, the databases of the OSM-community will run empty. (If  you
> keep true to these rules)
> No more speed limit panes, no more street or place names,...
> All running around with our virtual glasses, and our semi automated cars.
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/netherlands-tech-autos-idUSL5N0OX3S420140616
>
> Case Closed.
>
>
> 2016-03-17 14:42 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :
>>
>> Hi Jasper,
>>
>> The amount is dependant on the type of vehicle euronorm, so you cannot
>> even store this in OSM as it depends on external factors.
>>
>> It would be a bad idea, even if it wasn't as it is prone to change
>> overtime.
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>> On 16-03-16 20:35, Jasper Michels wrote:
>> > Thank you for the answer Marc and Sander.
>> >
>> > Would have loved to specify the amount, but Sander has a point.
>> > We can't verify this by survey.
>> > Will use toll:hgv=yes
>> >
>> > 2016-03-16 20:50 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis > > >:
>> >
>> > There is a toll-tag [1]. That page recommends toll=no, toll:hgv=yes
>> > Is this sufficient ? I don't know whether you want to specify the
>> > amount as well.
>> >
>> >
>> > regards
>> >
>> > m
>> >
>> > [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toll
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Jasper Michels
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the
>> > Belgian roads.
>> > http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
>> >
>> > The amount of toll depends from these factors:
>> > -Type of street
>> > -Euro-class Engine
>> > -Weight
>> > -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
>> >
>> > Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
>> > How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
>> >
>> > Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck
>> > navigation.
>> > Doesn't seem a lot of work also.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die
>> > wordt beschermd door Avast.
>> > www.avast.com
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <#5801676833427620774_3600039573253060037_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>> >
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>> >
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>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Toll for trucks +3,5ton

[Jasper Michels]

Thank you for the answer Marc and Sander.

Would have loved to specify the amount, but Sander has a point.
We can't verify this by survey.
Will use toll:hgv=yes

2016-03-16 20:50 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

> There is a toll-tag [1]. That page recommends toll=no, toll:hgv=yes
> Is this sufficient ? I don't know whether you want to specify the amount
> as well.
>
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toll
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Jasper Michels 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Starting from 1/04/2016 trucks will have to pay toll on the Belgian roads.
>> http://www.viapass.be/en/about-viapass/viapass-for-hgvs/
>>
>> The amount of toll depends from these factors:
>> -Type of street
>> -Euro-class Engine
>> -Weight
>> -Kilometres travelled (GPS driven)
>>
>> Is there a possibility to map this? And how?
>> How to make the difference of euro classes, and weight?
>>
>> Could be very handy for apps like Osmand with their truck navigation.
>> Doesn't seem a lot of work also.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dit e-mailbericht is verzonden vanaf een virusvrije computer die wordt
>> beschermd door Avast.
>> www.avast.com
>> 
>> <#5801676833427620774_3600039573253060037_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
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