Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[PONCELET Nadia]

Thank you all for your answers and ideas!

For those interested, this national registry number can be found in UrbIS under 
the name 'pnmc' in several tables like public names (pn) and street surfaces 
(ss), but not directly in street axis. As this reference number is published in 
UrbIS, I was tempted to consider that it was under the same type of license as 
UrbIS itself, but I may be wrong.

I must say I am not convinced anymore that adding this national registry 
reference number in osm would really help us in the long term. I met some 
people from UrbIS team this week. Like Joost said, it seems indeed that the 
data model of the national registry is about to change. It is still not very 
clear to me how and when. According to UrbIS people, “UrbIS Adresses” will 
officially become in 2018 the official reference for addresses in Brussels 
Region, just like CRAB in Flanders and ICAR in Wallonia. But it does not seem 
clear yet what kind of identifiers will be used for adresses (and shared with 
the national registry) in this context. Wait and see...

From what I had understood about what OpenLR does, I first thought it couldn't 
be really useful in our case as the SIAMU doesn't have a street database with 
its own geometry to be matched with OSM but only a streetname dictionary 
(without geometry) to be matched with OSM highways. But after Ben's short 
explanation, I think I should probably try to use it myself before to get to 
that conclusion. @Ben : I will probably recontact you on this question one day.

I didn’t take time yet to get more information about wikidata objects but it 
certainly looks like an interesting idea.

Nadia


De : Glenn Plas [mailto:gl...@byte-consult.be]
Envoyé : lundi 27 novembre 2017 10:37
À : OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org>; Ben Abelshausen 
<ben.abelshau...@gmail.com>; Jo Simoens <winfi...@gmail.com>
Objet : Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

Hi Ben,

I'm really missing something in the logic, but how can 2 seperate datasets get 
common ground on this ?  aka: how does it work that this single ID would be 
generated identically for 2 different datasets, given the fact that coordinates 
are not exactly 100% the same.  I don't see that connection with openLR.  Would 
love to know this.

tx,

Glenn

On 23-11-17 20:21, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
I think this problem can be solved with OpenLR, or at least to a level of 
acceptable quality comparable to mapping the ID's in OSM. I'm willing to help 
out with that, how that would work for examples for brussels:

OpenLR, encodes a location on a network in a kind of ID like this:

KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=

This decodes into a segment like this:

http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=
In your internal database you keep the code above, and link the streetname to 
that segment, the segment always decodes no matter who updates the map or the 
ID's of the OSM ways. As long as the road still exists the code will work. It's 
a perfect way to associate data to a road network for cars (or in this case 
firetrucks) without having a dependency on the network ID's or mapped ID's on 
the network.
Other examples:

http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXuCQnBSOKAQB6/76jGoQ=
http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMaESQmxiOVBP9E/zOjBaw=
http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMZgSQmHSOaBP+mANRjEUQ=
Generating codes can be done by just clicking on the map if you want to 
generate your own.

All this software is open-source and can be setup locally.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hi Nicolas,

Welcome back on this list, it has been a while! ;-) Thanks for taking this
on.

I have the impression that working openly with the community is for many
> organizations a difficult step to consider and manage.
>
> I think that the human relationships play an extremely important part in
> the success or failure of the use of technology, here the data.
>
> May I suggest that the SIAMU invite the active members of this thread of

discussion for a physical (in person) meeting on their premises.


This is (part of) why we started OSM Belgium. I'm sure we can setup
something where we meet face-to-face. I suggest emailing community -at-
osm.be and we can work from there. We'll invite whoever is interested from
the OSM community to come along.

@glenn: When I have a little more time I'll try to explain on Riot what I
mean ;-)

Cheers,
Ben

2017-11-27 23:29 GMT+00:00 Nicolas Pettiaux :

> Dear all
>
> Together with Marc Ducobu as other member of the « OSM community » I
> have attended a meeting organized at VIAS (the former IBSR) by Herbert
> Hansen with representatives from the Siamu, Police and other (see mail
> here below).
>
> I have the impression that working openly with the community is for many
> organizations a difficult step to consider and manage.
>
> I think that the human relationships play an extremely important part in
> the success or failure of the use of technology, here the data.
>
> May I suggest that the SIAMU invite the active members of this thread of
> discussion for a physical (in person) meeting on their premises.
>
> As I suggested to the SIAMU, and as they have done with the very
> interesting exchange initiated by Nadia Poncelet, working openly with
> the community that is striving to address cases of general concerns and
> general interest, would be profitable.
>
> Maybe Mr Hansen who worked with GIS data a lot and now helps
> institutions with projects could help in making sure that such a meeting
> is profitable for all parties (aka SIamu and OSM).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
> ==
>
>
> Bonjour,
>
>
>
> Pour rappel vous êtes inscrit(s) au workshop ayant pour thème la
> mobilité - sécurité routière et innovation géospatiale.
>
>
>
> Le workshop sera organisé le 27/11/2017 de 9 :30 à 13 :00 (lunch
> inclus).  Adresse du jour : VIAS, Haachtsesteenweg/Chaussée de Haecht
> 1405, 1130 Brussels
>
>
>
> L’objectif de ce workshop est:
>
> 1.  réunir les professionnels de ce secteur et
> recueillir leurs besoins en la matière,
>
> 2.  présenter l’état de l’art en technologies géospatiales
>
> 3.  mutualiser/consolider les besoins de toutes les
> organisations présentes,
>
> de manière à envisager, en réponse à ces besoins,  une solution
> rationnelle intégrant les techniques géo-spatiales.
>
>
>
> Pour votre information nous avons le plaisir de réunir des représentants
> de VIAS, la Police Fédérale, les pompiers de Bruxelles, la communauté
> Open Street Map, le pôle Logistics in Wallonia, l’UWE, L’Université de
> Liège, etc.
>
>
>
> Cette matinée a été conçue sous forme d’un atelier de travail, votre
> présence est donc nécessaire pendant toute sa durée.
>
>
>
> Je vous remercie encore pour votre participation. N’hésitez pas à me
> contacter si avez la moindre questions.
>
>
>
> Au plaisir de collaborer avec vous lundi prochain,
>
>
>
> Herbert HANSEN
>
> Project manager
>
>
> Rue Bois Saint Jean, 15/1 | B-4102 Seraing, Belgium
>
> Web : www.wsl.be l www.fabspace.eu
>
>
>
>
>
> SSS_mobility_27nov2017_bis.jpg
>
>
> --
> *Dr Nicolas Pettiaux*- nico...@pettiaux.be**
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

Dear all

Together with Marc Ducobu as other member of the « OSM community » I
have attended a meeting organized at VIAS (the former IBSR) by Herbert
Hansen with representatives from the Siamu, Police and other (see mail
here below).

I have the impression that working openly with the community is for many
organizations a difficult step to consider and manage.

I think that the human relationships play an extremely important part in
the success or failure of the use of technology, here the data.

May I suggest that the SIAMU invite the active members of this thread of
discussion for a physical (in person) meeting on their premises.

As I suggested to the SIAMU, and as they have done with the very
interesting exchange initiated by Nadia Poncelet, working openly with
the community that is striving to address cases of general concerns and
general interest, would be profitable.

Maybe Mr Hansen who worked with GIS data a lot and now helps
institutions with projects could help in making sure that such a meeting
is profitable for all parties (aka SIamu and OSM).

Best regards,

Nicolas


==


Bonjour,



Pour rappel vous êtes inscrit(s) au workshop ayant pour thème la
mobilité - sécurité routière et innovation géospatiale.



Le workshop sera organisé le 27/11/2017 de 9 :30 à 13 :00 (lunch
inclus).  Adresse du jour : VIAS, Haachtsesteenweg/Chaussée de Haecht
1405, 1130 Brussels



L’objectif de ce workshop est:

1.  réunir les professionnels de ce secteur et
recueillir leurs besoins en la matière,

2.  présenter l’état de l’art en technologies géospatiales

3.  mutualiser/consolider les besoins de toutes les
organisations présentes,

de manière à envisager, en réponse à ces besoins,  une solution
rationnelle intégrant les techniques géo-spatiales.



Pour votre information nous avons le plaisir de réunir des représentants
de VIAS, la Police Fédérale, les pompiers de Bruxelles, la communauté
Open Street Map, le pôle Logistics in Wallonia, l’UWE, L’Université de
Liège, etc.



Cette matinée a été conçue sous forme d’un atelier de travail, votre
présence est donc nécessaire pendant toute sa durée.



Je vous remercie encore pour votre participation. N’hésitez pas à me
contacter si avez la moindre questions.



Au plaisir de collaborer avec vous lundi prochain,



Herbert HANSEN

Project manager


Rue Bois Saint Jean, 15/1 | B-4102 Seraing, Belgium

Web : www.wsl.be l www.fabspace.eu





SSS_mobility_27nov2017_bis.jpg


-- 
*Dr Nicolas Pettiaux*- nico...@pettiaux.be**
<>

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Glenn Plas]

Hi Ben,

I'm really missing something in the logic, but how can 2 seperate
datasets get common ground on this ?  aka: how does it work that this
single ID would be generated identically for 2 different datasets, given
the fact that coordinates are not exactly 100% the same.  I don't see
that connection with openLR.  Would love to know this.

tx,

Glenn

On 23-11-17 20:21, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
> I think this problem can be solved with OpenLR, or at least to a level
> of acceptable quality comparable to mapping the ID's in OSM. I'm
> willing to help out with that, how that would work for examples for
> brussels:
>
> OpenLR, encodes a location on a network in a kind of ID like this:
>
> KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=
>
> This decodes into a segment like this:
>
> http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=
>
> In your internal database you keep the code above, and link the
> streetname to that segment, the segment always decodes no matter who
> updates the map or the ID's of the OSM ways. As long as the road still
> exists the code will work. It's a perfect way to associate data to a
> road network for cars (or in this case firetrucks) without having a
> dependency on the network ID's or mapped ID's on the network.
>
> Other examples:
>
> http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXuCQnBSOKAQB6/76jGoQ=
> http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMaESQmxiOVBP9E/zOjBaw=
> http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMZgSQmHSOaBP+mANRjEUQ=
>
> Generating codes can be done by just clicking on the map if you want
> to generate your own.
>
> All this software is open-source and can be setup locally.
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> Best regards,
>
> Ben Abelshausen
>

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Marc Gemis]

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Roads if you need
to contact some Wikidatians on adding roads.

m.

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Jo  wrote:
> If I  understood correctly every single street name of the Netherlands is
> already in Wikidata.
>
> 2017-11-23 14:31 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :
>>
>> Jo,
>> Does Urbis hold the same authority about the correct street name as CRAB
>> does in Flanders? I've understood there might not be a single authoritaive
>> list for Brussels, but I'm not sure.
>> Do you have an idea on how it would actually work on this scale with
>> Wikidata? Do you know of some projects that use Wikidata on that scale? I'm
>> asking because I think Agentschap Informatie Vlaanderen might be really
>> interested in linking their data to Wikidata, and from there to OSM. It
>> helps that it allows for a single datamodel for any country that uses street
>> names. And thus for one single QA tool to keep street names valid anywhere
>> that model is used.
>>
>> 2017-11-22 22:11 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>>>
>>> Urbis released all the data for the Brussels region several years ago, so
>>> it should be possible to use that data like we use CRAB in Flanders.
>>>
>>> My personal preference would be to work with wikidata identifiers for
>>> every street in and around Brussels.
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> 2017-11-22 21:09 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :

 Hi Nadia,

 Nice to see you here!

 I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
 before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
 much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
 It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
 with my idea [1].
 Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for
 a global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
 investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.

 There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big
 that I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to
 be an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough 
 about
 it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate an
 official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
 identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.

 That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple
 solution to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the 
 government,
 in theory there is one and only possible way of writing the name. In
 Flanders, that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where CRAB is
 still wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says something
 slightly different than what CRAB says), you could have name="Name on the
 Street Sign" and something like name_official="Name in CRAB". In that
 situation, the problem is different: how do make sure all the street names
 are and stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are actually working 
 towards
 doing something like that. In the scope of the Road Completion project [1]
 we want to start "attribute/tag comparison" real soon. Glenn as well has
 built something that is even further along the line of being in production,
 where we look for "close to this official road, there is no OSM road with
 the same exact name".
 Similar bit different, we developed a website last Open Summer of Code,
 where official cycling network data is compared to OSM data all the time.
 That way we can make sure our Brussel cycling network is always at least as
 correct as the official data.
 It's only a few more steps (not easy ones, I know) until we can work
 this out further. Any difference in street names should then be fixed quite
 quickly. I'd rather see you guys helping out in this effort, than starting 
 a
 cumbersome import.

 As far as I know, those codes are only open data in Flanders
 (accidentally through CRAB open data). One of the few rules about "what to
 map" is that it should be verifiable (preferable by anyone, in the field).
 There are a few exceptions, but they are rather rare. As long as the
 National Registry codes are not open data, that sounds lie a real problem 
 to
 me. In fact, there is no way you can import data into OSM that is not open.
 Because then we would have to re-license OSM with the license of the
 National Registry :)

 One more thing is that using this ID will give you false certainty. You
 will get your results, most of the time. But someone might have corrected a
 segment (it used to have the name A, but it really is street B), and they
 will not 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Ben Abelshausen]

I think this problem can be solved with OpenLR, or at least to a level of
acceptable quality comparable to mapping the ID's in OSM. I'm willing to
help out with that, how that would work for examples for brussels:

OpenLR, encodes a location on a network in a kind of ID like this:

KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=

This decodes into a segment like this:

http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXmiQm5xt0Af+x/79bBGY=

In your internal database you keep the code above, and link the streetname
to that segment, the segment always decodes no matter who updates the map
or the ID's of the OSM ways. As long as the road still exists the code will
work. It's a perfect way to associate data to a road network for cars (or
in this case firetrucks) without having a dependency on the network ID's or
mapped ID's on the network.

Other examples:

http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMXuCQnBSOKAQB6/76jGoQ=
http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMaESQmxiOVBP9E/zOjBaw=
http://openlr.itinero.tech/?code=KwMZgSQmHSOaBP+mANRjEUQ=

Generating codes can be done by just clicking on the map if you want to
generate your own.

All this software is open-source and can be setup locally.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Jo  wrote:

> If I  understood correctly every single street name of the Netherlands is
> already in Wikidata.
>
> 2017-11-23 14:31 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :
>
>> Jo,
>> Does Urbis hold the same authority about the correct street name as CRAB
>> does in Flanders? I've understood there might not be a single authoritaive
>> list for Brussels, but I'm not sure.
>> Do you have an idea on how it would actually work on this scale with
>> Wikidata? Do you know of some projects that use Wikidata on that scale? I'm
>> asking because I think Agentschap Informatie Vlaanderen might be really
>> interested in linking their data to Wikidata, and from there to OSM. It
>> helps that it allows for a single datamodel for any country that uses
>> street names. And thus for one single QA tool to keep street names valid
>> anywhere that model is used.
>>
>> 2017-11-22 22:11 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>>
>>> Urbis released all the data for the Brussels region several years ago,
>>> so it should be possible to use that data like we use CRAB in Flanders.
>>>
>>> My personal preference would be to work with wikidata identifiers for
>>> every street in and around Brussels.
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> 2017-11-22 21:09 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :
>>>
 Hi Nadia,

 Nice to see you here!

 I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
 before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
 much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
 It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
 with my idea [1].
 Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for
 a global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
 investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.

 There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big
 that I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to
 be an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough
 about it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate
 an official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
 identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.

 That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple
 solution to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the
 government, in theory there is one and only possible way of writing the
 name. In Flanders, that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where
 CRAB is still wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says
 something slightly different than what CRAB says), you could have
 name="Name on the Street Sign" and something like name_official="Name in
 CRAB". In that situation, the problem is different: how do make sure all
 the street names are and stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are
 actually working towards doing something like that. In the scope of the
 Road Completion project [1] we want to start "attribute/tag comparison"
 real soon. Glenn as well has built something that is even further along the
 line of being in production, where we look for "close to this official
 road, there is no OSM road with the same exact name".
 Similar bit different, we developed a website last Open Summer of Code,
 where official cycling network data is compared to OSM data all the time.
 That way we can make sure our Brussel cycling network is always at least as
 correct as the official data.
 It's only a few 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Jo]

If I  understood correctly every single street name of the Netherlands is
already in Wikidata.

2017-11-23 14:31 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :

> Jo,
> Does Urbis hold the same authority about the correct street name as CRAB
> does in Flanders? I've understood there might not be a single authoritaive
> list for Brussels, but I'm not sure.
> Do you have an idea on how it would actually work on this scale with
> Wikidata? Do you know of some projects that use Wikidata on that scale? I'm
> asking because I think Agentschap Informatie Vlaanderen might be really
> interested in linking their data to Wikidata, and from there to OSM. It
> helps that it allows for a single datamodel for any country that uses
> street names. And thus for one single QA tool to keep street names valid
> anywhere that model is used.
>
> 2017-11-22 22:11 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>
>> Urbis released all the data for the Brussels region several years ago, so
>> it should be possible to use that data like we use CRAB in Flanders.
>>
>> My personal preference would be to work with wikidata identifiers for
>> every street in and around Brussels.
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> 2017-11-22 21:09 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :
>>
>>> Hi Nadia,
>>>
>>> Nice to see you here!
>>>
>>> I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
>>> before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
>>> much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
>>> It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
>>> with my idea [1].
>>> Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for
>>> a global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
>>> investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.
>>>
>>> There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big
>>> that I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to
>>> be an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough
>>> about it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate
>>> an official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
>>> identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.
>>>
>>> That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple
>>> solution to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the
>>> government, in theory there is one and only possible way of writing the
>>> name. In Flanders, that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where
>>> CRAB is still wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says
>>> something slightly different than what CRAB says), you could have
>>> name="Name on the Street Sign" and something like name_official="Name in
>>> CRAB". In that situation, the problem is different: how do make sure all
>>> the street names are and stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are
>>> actually working towards doing something like that. In the scope of the
>>> Road Completion project [1] we want to start "attribute/tag comparison"
>>> real soon. Glenn as well has built something that is even further along the
>>> line of being in production, where we look for "close to this official
>>> road, there is no OSM road with the same exact name".
>>> Similar bit different, we developed a website last Open Summer of Code,
>>> where official cycling network data is compared to OSM data all the time.
>>> That way we can make sure our Brussel cycling network is always at least as
>>> correct as the official data.
>>> It's only a few more steps (not easy ones, I know) until we can work
>>> this out further. Any difference in street names should then be fixed quite
>>> quickly. I'd rather see you guys helping out in this effort, than starting
>>> a cumbersome import.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, those codes are only open data in Flanders
>>> (accidentally through CRAB open data). One of the few rules about "what to
>>> map" is that it should be verifiable (preferable by anyone, in the field).
>>> There are a few exceptions, but they are rather rare. As long as the
>>> National Registry codes are not open data, that sounds lie a real problem
>>> to me. In fact, there is no way you can import data into OSM that is not
>>> open. Because then we would have to re-license OSM with the license of the
>>> National Registry :)
>>>
>>> One more thing is that using this ID will give you false certainty. You
>>> will get your results, most of the time. But someone might have corrected a
>>> segment (it used to have the name A, but it really is street B), and they
>>> will not know what to do with this strange ref number. So even after a
>>> succesful import, you would still need something like the constant
>>> comparison described above to check if the streetname is still what the
>>> unique identifier assumes it should be.
>>>
>>> Ben and I have also spent a lot of time 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[joost schouppe]

Jo,
Does Urbis hold the same authority about the correct street name as CRAB
does in Flanders? I've understood there might not be a single authoritaive
list for Brussels, but I'm not sure.
Do you have an idea on how it would actually work on this scale with
Wikidata? Do you know of some projects that use Wikidata on that scale? I'm
asking because I think Agentschap Informatie Vlaanderen might be really
interested in linking their data to Wikidata, and from there to OSM. It
helps that it allows for a single datamodel for any country that uses
street names. And thus for one single QA tool to keep street names valid
anywhere that model is used.

2017-11-22 22:11 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> Urbis released all the data for the Brussels region several years ago, so
> it should be possible to use that data like we use CRAB in Flanders.
>
> My personal preference would be to work with wikidata identifiers for
> every street in and around Brussels.
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2017-11-22 21:09 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :
>
>> Hi Nadia,
>>
>> Nice to see you here!
>>
>> I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
>> before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
>> much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
>> It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
>> with my idea [1].
>> Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for a
>> global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
>> investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.
>>
>> There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big
>> that I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to
>> be an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough
>> about it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate
>> an official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
>> identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.
>>
>> That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple
>> solution to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the
>> government, in theory there is one and only possible way of writing the
>> name. In Flanders, that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where
>> CRAB is still wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says
>> something slightly different than what CRAB says), you could have
>> name="Name on the Street Sign" and something like name_official="Name in
>> CRAB". In that situation, the problem is different: how do make sure all
>> the street names are and stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are
>> actually working towards doing something like that. In the scope of the
>> Road Completion project [1] we want to start "attribute/tag comparison"
>> real soon. Glenn as well has built something that is even further along the
>> line of being in production, where we look for "close to this official
>> road, there is no OSM road with the same exact name".
>> Similar bit different, we developed a website last Open Summer of Code,
>> where official cycling network data is compared to OSM data all the time.
>> That way we can make sure our Brussel cycling network is always at least as
>> correct as the official data.
>> It's only a few more steps (not easy ones, I know) until we can work this
>> out further. Any difference in street names should then be fixed quite
>> quickly. I'd rather see you guys helping out in this effort, than starting
>> a cumbersome import.
>>
>> As far as I know, those codes are only open data in Flanders
>> (accidentally through CRAB open data). One of the few rules about "what to
>> map" is that it should be verifiable (preferable by anyone, in the field).
>> There are a few exceptions, but they are rather rare. As long as the
>> National Registry codes are not open data, that sounds lie a real problem
>> to me. In fact, there is no way you can import data into OSM that is not
>> open. Because then we would have to re-license OSM with the license of the
>> National Registry :)
>>
>> One more thing is that using this ID will give you false certainty. You
>> will get your results, most of the time. But someone might have corrected a
>> segment (it used to have the name A, but it really is street B), and they
>> will not know what to do with this strange ref number. So even after a
>> succesful import, you would still need something like the constant
>> comparison described above to check if the streetname is still what the
>> unique identifier assumes it should be.
>>
>> Ben and I have also spent a lot of time thinking about this problem in
>> general terms: "how do you keep external data synchronized to OSM". In the
>> case of roads it shouldn't actually be that hard. Say you start of with a
>> table joining the two datasets together based on the object IDs. You then
>> 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Jo]

Urbis released all the data for the Brussels region several years ago, so
it should be possible to use that data like we use CRAB in Flanders.

My personal preference would be to work with wikidata identifiers for every
street in and around Brussels.

Polyglot

2017-11-22 21:09 GMT+01:00 joost schouppe :

> Hi Nadia,
>
> Nice to see you here!
>
> I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
> before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
> much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
> It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
> with my idea [1].
> Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for a
> global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
> investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.
>
> There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big
> that I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to
> be an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough
> about it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate
> an official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
> identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.
>
> That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple solution
> to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the government, in
> theory there is one and only possible way of writing the name. In Flanders,
> that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where CRAB is still
> wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says something slightly
> different than what CRAB says), you could have name="Name on the Street
> Sign" and something like name_official="Name in CRAB". In that situation,
> the problem is different: how do make sure all the street names are and
> stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are actually working towards doing
> something like that. In the scope of the Road Completion project [1] we
> want to start "attribute/tag comparison" real soon. Glenn as well has built
> something that is even further along the line of being in production, where
> we look for "close to this official road, there is no OSM road with the
> same exact name".
> Similar bit different, we developed a website last Open Summer of Code,
> where official cycling network data is compared to OSM data all the time.
> That way we can make sure our Brussel cycling network is always at least as
> correct as the official data.
> It's only a few more steps (not easy ones, I know) until we can work this
> out further. Any difference in street names should then be fixed quite
> quickly. I'd rather see you guys helping out in this effort, than starting
> a cumbersome import.
>
> As far as I know, those codes are only open data in Flanders (accidentally
> through CRAB open data). One of the few rules about "what to map" is that
> it should be verifiable (preferable by anyone, in the field). There are a
> few exceptions, but they are rather rare. As long as the National Registry
> codes are not open data, that sounds lie a real problem to me. In fact,
> there is no way you can import data into OSM that is not open. Because then
> we would have to re-license OSM with the license of the National Registry :)
>
> One more thing is that using this ID will give you false certainty. You
> will get your results, most of the time. But someone might have corrected a
> segment (it used to have the name A, but it really is street B), and they
> will not know what to do with this strange ref number. So even after a
> succesful import, you would still need something like the constant
> comparison described above to check if the streetname is still what the
> unique identifier assumes it should be.
>
> Ben and I have also spent a lot of time thinking about this problem in
> general terms: "how do you keep external data synchronized to OSM". In the
> case of roads it shouldn't actually be that hard. Say you start of with a
> table joining the two datasets together based on the object IDs. You then
> need to monitor how both datasets evolve. On the OSM side, you only have to
> keep analysing segments that have changed a lot (say, the average
> coordinate is too far away; the total length changed too much) or have
> disappeared. Then you can have a process that finds if an object that is
> similar enough is still mapped in the same place. Only when a certain
> threshold is reached, there's a need for manual intervention to check what
> is going on.
> While this sounds complicated, I do think someone experienced in the
> field, could build a model in a couple of days. I think the end result
> would actually be more dependable than your idea, and probably less work to
> implement. I've built something solving a similar problem in FME in not too
> much time (a professional FME 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[joost schouppe]

Hi Nadia,

Nice to see you here!

I've played with the idea of unique identifiers for OSM objects myself
before. But it remains controversial in the international community (not so
much in Belgium). Here's an article I wrote long long time ago about it.
It's especially useful for the comments, which outline some of the problems
with my idea [1].
Also relevant to get a feel for the issues is when this proposition for a
global reviews database was discussed. Possibilities for linking were
investigated, and adding external IDs got quite a bit of headwind.

There has been a discussion about wikidata recently that turned so big that
I couldn't follow at all. But at least until recently, there seemed to be
an openness towards adding wikidata unique IDs. I don't know enough about
it to have a real opinion, but to me it sounds elegant to translate an
official source of streetnames into wikidata objects, then adding that
identifier to OSM. Maybe those more versed in Wikidata can explain.

That said, I'm not sure your proposed solution is the most simple solution
to the problem. Given that streetnames are given by the government, in
theory there is one and only possible way of writing the name. In Flanders,
that would be the CRAB name. In the very few cases where CRAB is still
wrong (or more to the point: the sign in the street says something slightly
different than what CRAB says), you could have name="Name on the Street
Sign" and something like name_official="Name in CRAB". In that situation,
the problem is different: how do make sure all the street names are and
stay correct in OSM. By coincidence, we are actually working towards doing
something like that. In the scope of the Road Completion project [1] we
want to start "attribute/tag comparison" real soon. Glenn as well has built
something that is even further along the line of being in production, where
we look for "close to this official road, there is no OSM road with the
same exact name".
Similar bit different, we developed a website last Open Summer of Code,
where official cycling network data is compared to OSM data all the time.
That way we can make sure our Brussel cycling network is always at least as
correct as the official data.
It's only a few more steps (not easy ones, I know) until we can work this
out further. Any difference in street names should then be fixed quite
quickly. I'd rather see you guys helping out in this effort, than starting
a cumbersome import.

As far as I know, those codes are only open data in Flanders (accidentally
through CRAB open data). One of the few rules about "what to map" is that
it should be verifiable (preferable by anyone, in the field). There are a
few exceptions, but they are rather rare. As long as the National Registry
codes are not open data, that sounds lie a real problem to me. In fact,
there is no way you can import data into OSM that is not open. Because then
we would have to re-license OSM with the license of the National Registry :)

One more thing is that using this ID will give you false certainty. You
will get your results, most of the time. But someone might have corrected a
segment (it used to have the name A, but it really is street B), and they
will not know what to do with this strange ref number. So even after a
succesful import, you would still need something like the constant
comparison described above to check if the streetname is still what the
unique identifier assumes it should be.

Ben and I have also spent a lot of time thinking about this problem in
general terms: "how do you keep external data synchronized to OSM". In the
case of roads it shouldn't actually be that hard. Say you start of with a
table joining the two datasets together based on the object IDs. You then
need to monitor how both datasets evolve. On the OSM side, you only have to
keep analysing segments that have changed a lot (say, the average
coordinate is too far away; the total length changed too much) or have
disappeared. Then you can have a process that finds if an object that is
similar enough is still mapped in the same place. Only when a certain
threshold is reached, there's a need for manual intervention to check what
is going on.
While this sounds complicated, I do think someone experienced in the field,
could build a model in a couple of days. I think the end result would
actually be more dependable than your idea, and probably less work to
implement. I've built something solving a similar problem in FME in not too
much time (a professional FME worker then re-built it in two days). Seppe
suggested that in the case of road data, a tool like OpenLR [5] might
actually already solve this problem. And Glenn seems to think this is quite
straightforward using Postgis.

Just out of curiosity: what kind of information do you have that is valid
at the level of a streetname?



1: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/diary/34328
2: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2016-August/076498.html
3: 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[Marc Gemis]

Hallo Nadia,

nice to hear that the fire department is using OSM.

As for the refs for the roads. There are a number of different systems
in place for reference numbers that you do not see.
In the UK they use official_ref or admin_ref [1]
In France they have e.g. ref:FR:FANTOIR
and there is also unsigned_ref [2]

I would stick to one of those keys

Some people in the international community do no like those external
accounts, as ordinary mappers cannot easily check them. I do not think
that the Belgian community really objects to those refs. Be aware that
those refs can disappear, as mappers might not understand their
purpose.

I leave it to others to decide whether the import procedure has to be
followed to add the refs.

In case you understand German, it might be interesting to view the
presentation by this fire department [3] on using OSM.


regards

m

[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Tagging_Guidelines#Tagging_Road_Numbers
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:unsigned_ref
[3] 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__IjaP1EY8=youtu.be=PLTli5-lbeoibyuVe_GXqZjYqNT-P83zEp

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 1:57 PM, PONCELET Nadia
 wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> The SIAMU (fire brigade and of urgent medical aid of the Brussels Region)
> presently uses OpenStreetMap in several of its applications, in particular
> to define preferential routes for emergency vehicles in Brussels. We work at
> the moment with Champs Libres to ensure a regular and effective integration
> of OSM updates in our internal applications.
>
>
>
> One of the problems we run into is related to street names. The SIAMU have
> its own dictionary of street names which we have associated with OSM road
> network using the ‘name’ tag. But we have some difficulties in maintaining
> this link throughout the updates.
>
>
>
> All things considered, the best solution for us would be to add some
> reference identifier to every OSM highway in Brussels. That would allow us
> to maintain the link with our internal street dictionary, even when the tag
> ‘name’ is modified.
>
>
>
> There are several possibilities for a reference id. We suggest choosing the
> national register number for public road network (made of the zip code + a
> road number). This code would have the advantage to be also usable outside
> Brussels Region. Moreover, anyone who wants to make the link between OSM and
> any administrative data containing this national register number could
> re-use it.
>
>
>
> We would like to ask for advice to the OSM community on several questions:
>
> - Do you think that a new tag ‘ref:natreg’ could be used?
>
> - In certain cases, several numbers of national register are associated to
> the street (when the street follows or crosses one or several municipal
> limits). In this case, it is preferable to use several tags or to use a
> single tag with a separator (";") between the different reference numbers?
>
> - Do you think that an automatic import of these national register numbers
> for Brussels Road network could be realized?
>
>
>
> Of course, we also plan to contribute to improve OSM objects used by the
> emergency services. A wikipage could be created listing all the tags that we
> consider important for our applications. We see a real added-value in using
> OSM in our applications (especially in term of data updates) and we hope for
> a fruitful collaboration!
>
>
>
>
>
> Nadia Poncelet (for SIAMU)
>
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>

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[OSM-talk-be] OSM and SIAMU

[PONCELET Nadia]

Hello everyone,

The SIAMU (fire brigade and of urgent medical aid of the Brussels Region) 
presently uses OpenStreetMap in several of its applications, in particular to 
define preferential routes for emergency vehicles in Brussels. We work at the 
moment with Champs Libres to ensure a regular and effective integration of OSM 
updates in our internal applications.

One of the problems we run into is related to street names. The SIAMU have its 
own dictionary of street names which we have associated with OSM road network 
using the 'name' tag. But we have some difficulties in maintaining this link 
throughout the updates.

All things considered, the best solution for us would be to add some reference 
identifier to every OSM highway in Brussels. That would allow us to maintain 
the link with our internal street dictionary, even when the tag 'name' is 
modified.

There are several possibilities for a reference id. We suggest choosing the 
national register number for public road network (made of the zip code + a road 
number). This code would have the advantage to be also usable outside Brussels 
Region. Moreover, anyone who wants to make the link between OSM and any 
administrative data containing this national register number could re-use it.

We would like to ask for advice to the OSM community on several questions:
- Do you think that a new tag 'ref:natreg' could be used?
- In certain cases, several numbers of national register are associated to the 
street (when the street follows or crosses one or several municipal limits). In 
this case, it is preferable to use several tags or to use a single tag with a 
separator (";") between the different reference numbers?
- Do you think that an automatic import of these national register numbers for 
Brussels Road network could be realized?

Of course, we also plan to contribute to improve OSM objects used by the 
emergency services. A wikipage could be created listing all the tags that we 
consider important for our applications. We see a real added-value in using OSM 
in our applications (especially in term of data updates) and we hope for a 
fruitful collaboration!


Nadia Poncelet (for SIAMU)
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