Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
I would think it's the parts that give them the power to revoke the license to use the data at any time. For it to be used in OSM, it has to be essentially surrendered to the map. When I joined two years ago, one of the stipulations was to specifically accept the licensing agreement of OSM which effectively had me surrender any and all edits to OSM. It would reserve the right to maintain, modify, delete and otherwise use any information that I inputted as their own. Which makes complete sense, else if I were to become vindictive, I could try to revoke my license and they would have to remove my edits, which is difficult and potentially damaging. Specifically, as Steward mentioned, Ottawa has the reserved the right of cancellation of access to the data: *The City may, in its sole discretion, cancel or suspend your access to the datasets without notice and for any reason, including anything which the City, in its sole discretion, believes is a breach of these Terms of Use or is otherwise unlawful or harmful to others. In the event of cancellation or suspension, you will no longer be authorized to use or reproduce these datasets, and the City may use any means possible to enforce its decision. Such cancellation or suspension will not affect any person who has received the datasets from you and who is otherwise in compliance with these Terms of Use.* Basically, they can revoke the access and OSM will be forced to comply, removing the data and, as a result, any edits made that were based off that data. The other problem is the Liability clause. If they feel the use was a breach, then they may sue, indemnifying OSM and making it open to litigation. We, as users, don't have the right to do that. On Aug 20, 2015 4:59 PM, James james2...@gmail.com wrote: I got an email back from the guy handling the Licensing. Hi James, thank-you for the email. I’m not sure I understand the compatibility grid. Is there a particular issue you are concerned about? Note: we have plans to adapt the Open Government License Canada but have not been able to do that quite yet; however, there are few differences between the two, so if there’s a specific item you are concerned about it I might be able to shed some light on how we treat it. Thank-you, Robert Giggey --- What would be the specifics of our license (ODbL) incompatible with Ottawa-TOU? On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:14 AM, James james2...@gmail.com wrote: Email I got after I said I will be unable to use the data due to incompatible licensing: James, I’m going to forward this inquiry on to Robert Giggey. He is in charge of the Open Data program at the City. I must say, I am a little surprised that this interpretation is so restrictive. I personally was not aware of this. I will also follow-up with Robert in this regard. *-Stephen* Maybe, they just needed some education? P.s. thank you Stewart for the comparison tool! On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Stewart C. Russell scr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi James — What should I tell Stephen, to change the license for just OSM or in whole? For simplicity, they'd need to change the licence for everyone. A special carve-out for OSM alone would be fraught with problems. Ideally, they'd chose a licence that isunencumbered, like CC0 or PDDL. Any attempt to roll your own licence adds compatibility problems, and municipalities do love to keep those little clauses in that allow them to recall data. If you want to show Stephen how compatible and open the city's licence isn't, show him this: http://clipol.org/licences/16?tab=licence_compatibility It shows how Canadian municipalities all shared and tweaked licences, and inadvertently made them incompatible with everything. And they complain about why no-one uses their data. If they do want to change (great!), I know there are some folks on this list just itching for a roadtrip to the NCR to do some municipal education … cheers, Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca -- 外に遊びに行こう！ -- 外に遊びに行こう！ ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
I got an email back from the guy handling the Licensing. Hi James, thank-you for the email. I’m not sure I understand the compatibility grid. Is there a particular issue you are concerned about? Note: we have plans to adapt the Open Government License Canada but have not been able to do that quite yet; however, there are few differences between the two, so if there’s a specific item you are concerned about it I might be able to shed some light on how we treat it. Thank-you, Robert Giggey --- What would be the specifics of our license (ODbL) incompatible with Ottawa-TOU? On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:14 AM, James james2...@gmail.com wrote: Email I got after I said I will be unable to use the data due to incompatible licensing: James, I’m going to forward this inquiry on to Robert Giggey. He is in charge of the Open Data program at the City. I must say, I am a little surprised that this interpretation is so restrictive. I personally was not aware of this. I will also follow-up with Robert in this regard. *-Stephen* Maybe, they just needed some education? P.s. thank you Stewart for the comparison tool! On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Stewart C. Russell scr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi James — What should I tell Stephen, to change the license for just OSM or in whole? For simplicity, they'd need to change the licence for everyone. A special carve-out for OSM alone would be fraught with problems. Ideally, they'd chose a licence that isunencumbered, like CC0 or PDDL. Any attempt to roll your own licence adds compatibility problems, and municipalities do love to keep those little clauses in that allow them to recall data. If you want to show Stephen how compatible and open the city's licence isn't, show him this: http://clipol.org/licences/16?tab=licence_compatibility It shows how Canadian municipalities all shared and tweaked licences, and inadvertently made them incompatible with everything. And they complain about why no-one uses their data. If they do want to change (great!), I know there are some folks on this list just itching for a roadtrip to the NCR to do some municipal education … cheers, Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca -- 外に遊びに行こう！ -- 外に遊びに行こう！ ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
Email I got after I said I will be unable to use the data due to incompatible licensing: James, I’m going to forward this inquiry on to Robert Giggey. He is in charge of the Open Data program at the City. I must say, I am a little surprised that this interpretation is so restrictive. I personally was not aware of this. I will also follow-up with Robert in this regard. *-Stephen* Maybe, they just needed some education? P.s. thank you Stewart for the comparison tool! On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Stewart C. Russell scr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi James — What should I tell Stephen, to change the license for just OSM or in whole? For simplicity, they'd need to change the licence for everyone. A special carve-out for OSM alone would be fraught with problems. Ideally, they'd chose a licence that isunencumbered, like CC0 or PDDL. Any attempt to roll your own licence adds compatibility problems, and municipalities do love to keep those little clauses in that allow them to recall data. If you want to show Stephen how compatible and open the city's licence isn't, show him this: http://clipol.org/licences/16?tab=licence_compatibility It shows how Canadian municipalities all shared and tweaked licences, and inadvertently made them incompatible with everything. And they complain about why no-one uses their data. If they do want to change (great!), I know there are some folks on this list just itching for a roadtrip to the NCR to do some municipal education … cheers, Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca -- 外に遊びに行こう！ ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
Hi James — What should I tell Stephen, to change the license for just OSM or in whole? For simplicity, they'd need to change the licence for everyone. A special carve-out for OSM alone would be fraught with problems. Ideally, they'd chose a licence that isunencumbered, like CC0 or PDDL. Any attempt to roll your own licence adds compatibility problems, and municipalities do love to keep those little clauses in that allow them to recall data. If you want to show Stephen how compatible and open the city's licence isn't, show him this: http://clipol.org/licences/16?tab=licence_compatibility It shows how Canadian municipalities all shared and tweaked licences, and inadvertently made them incompatible with everything. And they complain about why no-one uses their data. If they do want to change (great!), I know there are some folks on this list just itching for a roadtrip to the NCR to do some municipal education … cheers, Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
Hi James, but I did receive approval from the city that we could import data from data.ottawa.ca/dataset http://data.ottawa.ca/dataset. Which I documented here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission I'm not a legal expert, but I think that OSM would have trouble with some of the licence terms, such as http://ottawa.ca/en/mobile-apps-and-open-data/terms-use#terms — *Liability for not complying with Terms of Use* If, as a result of your breach of these Terms of Use, the City gets sued or is required to pay someone money, you agree to protect the City and reimburse the City for everything which you cause the City to suffer. This means that you agree to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless the City and all of its agents from any and all liabilities incurred in connection with any claim arising from any breach by you of these Terms of Use, including reasonable legal fees and costs. You agree to cooperate fully in the defence of any such claim. The City reserves the right to assume, at its own expense, the exclusive defence and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. You agree not to settle any matter without the written consent of the City. *Cancellation for non-compliance* The City may, in its sole discretion, cancel or suspend your access to the datasets without notice and for any reason, including anything which the City, in its sole discretion, believes is a breach of these Terms of Use or is otherwise unlawful or harmful to others. In the event of cancellation or suspension, you will no longer be authorized to use or reproduce these datasets, and the City may use any means possible to enforce its decision. Such cancellation or suspension will not affect any person who has received the datasets from you and who is otherwise in compliance with these Terms of Use. So it looks like the City could sue OSM if someone uses the map in Ottawa, gets lost or falls in the canal, and sues the City. It also looks like the city reserves the right to suspend use of the data, and may be able to enforce this. Ottawa's licence looks a lot like the first wave of Canadian Open Data licences, and these were absolutely not usable in OSM. Best Wishes, Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
On 8/17/2015 8:20 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: Hi James, but I did receive approval from the city that we could import data from data.ottawa.ca/dataset http://data.ottawa.ca/dataset. Which I documented here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission I'm not a legal expert, but I think that OSM would have trouble with some of the licence terms, such as http://ottawa.ca/en/mobile-apps-and-open-data/terms-use#terms Yes, the Ottawa terms are pretty clearly incompatible with OpenStreetMap, and do not meet the Open Definition. Giving us permission is fine, but we need to be certain that the city realizes what it is granting permission for, and we should also make sure that they realize the license they currently have is non-open and a problem. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Fwd: Ottawa, Canada import
Hello everyone, I was informed that before any kind of data import was to be approved by the community. Unfortunately I have imported a bit of data into openstreetmap and for this I am sorry. but I did receive approval from the city that we could import data from data.ottawa.ca/dataset. Which I documented here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission I will be documenting the import on this wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import I know there has been a push within osmcanada to improve Ottawa's maps see osm task: http://tasks.osmcanada.ca/project/9 and I truely do believe this will help this cause. with your approval we can move ahead and improve the already great maps that openstreetmap provides. *(Sorry for the double email I wasn't on the imports mailing list and it bounced)* Thank you Jamie Nadeau ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
