Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Richard I dont think that we should advocate against import. Then we differ. I've been advocating for better imports with every import I've seen since 2006. While the tools have improved, the results for the most part, just haven't. Let's try in 2014 to be more positive with that and suggest ways to do it better. You might continue to believe that imports are just fine, I do not. Imports are harmfull to OpenStreetMap and to the OpenStreetMap community in all except extremely limited circumstances. Invariably, when I add that except in extremely limited circumstances, the listener will presume that they are in fact the exception. Invariably, they aren't the exception. They are well intentioned. They are in love with data. They want a better OpenStreetMap. And then they make an import of some sort and cause harm to the data base and community that they then never clean up because it is too much work. The linked thread regarding the NYC building import discusses ways to do it better. The after action report on any decent effort at an import has discussed ways to do better in the future. Technically, essentially every import has been better than the one before. To date, overwhelmingly, better is still just not good enough. My recommendation is never to import. Import should be a very dirty word in OpenStreetMap. By comparison, I think we should focus on doing the best mapping that we can with our surveys, and with external resources that we have permission to use. Use external resources* by comparing each item with all of the other existing resources, including imagery, existing OpenStreetMap data, your survey, local knowledge, and curate the external source before placing it into OpenStreetMap. But never import.** Yes. It's way slower. Yes, it takes more time, and a more-experienced mapper. But it is what you owe to the project, the community and to your reputation as a mapper. To be clear, I love that external resources are becoming available to OpenStreetMap in greater numbers. I have every bit as much data love for a new data set as the next mapper. Dumping huge amounts of un-curated data into the OpenStreetMap data base at one time is not the way to use that data, or OpenStreetMap to best effect. * Only the ones for which we have explicit permission to use. ** except in those extremely limited circumstances which don't apply here. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses
Richard we are trying to build a community, to work with various governments to provide some data. At the same time, we should bring a minimum of nuances in discussing in subjects like the imports. Yes there are mappers that make errors, and yes we should help them to do better, we should take care to have good guidelines, good follow-up. And this not only for imports. The same with field surveys and Aerial imagery. If you use a GPS to locate a store, there is good chance that you will not place a commerce at the right place and even place it on the wrong side of the street. And if you trace from Imagery in sandy areas dozens of paths going in all directions, this is not meaningful. It is very difficult to discuss, when somebody comes with such a radical position as you present every time we discuss of imports. Let's hope that we can have more constructive ways to discuss on this list in 2014. Pierre De : Richard Weait rich...@weait.com À : Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr Cc : Talk- CA Open Street Map talk-ca@openstreetmap.org; diane.merc...@gmail.com diane.merc...@gmail.com Envoyé le : Lundi 6 janvier 2014 12h49 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Richard I dont think that we should advocate against import. Then we differ. I've been advocating for better imports with every import I've seen since 2006. While the tools have improved, the results for the most part, just haven't. Let's try in 2014 to be more positive with that and suggest ways to do it better. You might continue to believe that imports are just fine, I do not. Imports are harmfull to OpenStreetMap and to the OpenStreetMap community in all except extremely limited circumstances. Invariably, when I add that except in extremely limited circumstances, the listener will presume that they are in fact the exception. Invariably, they aren't the exception. They are well intentioned. They are in love with data. They want a better OpenStreetMap. And then they make an import of some sort and cause harm to the data base and community that they then never clean up because it is too much work. The linked thread regarding the NYC building import discusses ways to do it better. The after action report on any decent effort at an import has discussed ways to do better in the future. Technically, essentially every import has been better than the one before. To date, overwhelmingly, better is still just not good enough. My recommendation is never to import. Import should be a very dirty word in OpenStreetMap. By comparison, I think we should focus on doing the best mapping that we can with our surveys, and with external resources that we have permission to use. Use external resources* by comparing each item with all of the other existing resources, including imagery, existing OpenStreetMap data, your survey, local knowledge, and curate the external source before placing it into OpenStreetMap. But never import.** Yes. It's way slower. Yes, it takes more time, and a more-experienced mapper. But it is what you owe to the project, the community and to your reputation as a mapper. To be clear, I love that external resources are becoming available to OpenStreetMap in greater numbers. I have every bit as much data love for a new data set as the next mapper. Dumping huge amounts of un-curated data into the OpenStreetMap data base at one time is not the way to use that data, or OpenStreetMap to best effect. * Only the ones for which we have explicit permission to use. ** except in those extremely limited circumstances which don't apply here.___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses
The effort behind OSM in terms of the map is to obtain, enter and maintain accurate and up-to-date data. Any effort to create a community is ours as the Canadian users of the editing tools. As such, the assertion that importing should be discouraged is one for the benefit of the map and not the community. Since the map is our primary concern, it seems reasonable to seek to limit this activity to those that have been proven to be skilled in the process. New users could be encouraged to use the sandbox to gain these skills. Adam On Jan 6, 2014 2:45 PM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Richard we are trying to build a community, to work with various governments to provide some data. At the same time, we should bring a minimum of nuances in discussing in subjects like the imports. Yes there are mappers that make errors, and yes we should help them to do better, we should take care to have good guidelines, good follow-up. And this not only for imports. The same with field surveys and Aerial imagery. If you use a GPS to locate a store, there is good chance that you will not place a commerce at the right place and even place it on the wrong side of the street. And if you trace from Imagery in sandy areas dozens of paths going in all directions, this is not meaningful. It is very difficult to discuss, when somebody comes with such a radical position as you present every time we discuss of imports. Let's hope that we can have more constructive ways to discuss on this list in 2014. Pierre -- *De :* Richard Weait rich...@weait.com *À :* Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr *Cc :* Talk- CA Open Street Map talk-ca@openstreetmap.org; diane.merc...@gmail.com diane.merc...@gmail.com *Envoyé le :* Lundi 6 janvier 2014 12h49 *Objet :* Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Richard I dont think that we should advocate against import. Then we differ. I've been advocating for better imports with every import I've seen since 2006. While the tools have improved, the results for the most part, just haven't. Let's try in 2014 to be more positive with that and suggest ways to do it better. You might continue to believe that imports are just fine, I do not. Imports are harmfull to OpenStreetMap and to the OpenStreetMap community in all except extremely limited circumstances. Invariably, when I add that except in extremely limited circumstances, the listener will presume that they are in fact the exception. Invariably, they aren't the exception. They are well intentioned. They are in love with data. They want a better OpenStreetMap. And then they make an import of some sort and cause harm to the data base and community that they then never clean up because it is too much work. The linked thread regarding the NYC building import discusses ways to do it better. The after action report on any decent effort at an import has discussed ways to do better in the future. Technically, essentially every import has been better than the one before. To date, overwhelmingly, better is still just not good enough. My recommendation is never to import. Import should be a very dirty word in OpenStreetMap. By comparison, I think we should focus on doing the best mapping that we can with our surveys, and with external resources that we have permission to use. Use external resources* by comparing each item with all of the other existing resources, including imagery, existing OpenStreetMap data, your survey, local knowledge, and curate the external source before placing it into OpenStreetMap. But never import.** Yes. It's way slower. Yes, it takes more time, and a more-experienced mapper. But it is what you owe to the project, the community and to your reputation as a mapper. To be clear, I love that external resources are becoming available to OpenStreetMap in greater numbers. I have every bit as much data love for a new data set as the next mapper. Dumping huge amounts of un-curated data into the OpenStreetMap data base at one time is not the way to use that data, or OpenStreetMap to best effect. * Only the ones for which we have explicit permission to use. ** except in those extremely limited circumstances which don't apply here. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses
Bonjour Richard, You wrote that Imports are harmful to OpenStreetMap and to the OpenStreetMap community. I'm inclined not to agree with you. However I may have missed something obvious. Saying that data import is harmful to OpenStreetMap project and harmful to its community sounds like sharing a belief. Please, provide us with concrete examples to make all of us understand why - not only believe - that imports are harmful... - To the project, specifically in Canada? - To the community, specifically in Canada? I agree with Pierre that we should bring a minimum of nuances in discussing subjects like the imports - actually, discussing with the community should be done with nuances, whatever the subject. Considering all what you have done for the OSM project so far, and the nuances you usually show in your words, the facts that support your statement about import must be very strong! Unfortunately, I am not aware of these facts/arguments and maybe the community is not either... So please, take the time to make your point; and if possible be specific to the Canadian community. I guess most of us are reasonable people and we should be able to understand something that seems so obvious for you :-) Best, Daniel -Original Message- From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] Sent: January-06-14 12:49 To: Pierre Béland Cc: diane.merc...@gmail.com; Talk- CA Open Street Map Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Pierre Béland pierz...@yahoo.fr wrote: Richard I dont think that we should advocate against import. Then we differ. I've been advocating for better imports with every import I've seen since 2006. While the tools have improved, the results for the most part, just haven't. Let's try in 2014 to be more positive with that and suggest ways to do it better. You might continue to believe that imports are just fine, I do not. Imports are harmfull to OpenStreetMap and to the OpenStreetMap community in all except extremely limited circumstances. Invariably, when I add that except in extremely limited circumstances, the listener will presume that they are in fact the exception. Invariably, they aren't the exception. They are well intentioned. They are in love with data. They want a better OpenStreetMap. And then they make an import of some sort and cause harm to the data base and community that they then never clean up because it is too much work. The linked thread regarding the NYC building import discusses ways to do it better. The after action report on any decent effort at an import has discussed ways to do better in the future. Technically, essentially every import has been better than the one before. To date, overwhelmingly, better is still just not good enough. My recommendation is never to import. Import should be a very dirty word in OpenStreetMap. By comparison, I think we should focus on doing the best mapping that we can with our surveys, and with external resources that we have permission to use. Use external resources* by comparing each item with all of the other existing resources, including imagery, existing OpenStreetMap data, your survey, local knowledge, and curate the external source before placing it into OpenStreetMap. But never import.** Yes. It's way slower. Yes, it takes more time, and a more-experienced mapper. But it is what you owe to the project, the community and to your reputation as a mapper. To be clear, I love that external resources are becoming available to OpenStreetMap in greater numbers. I have every bit as much data love for a new data set as the next mapper. Dumping huge amounts of un-curated data into the OpenStreetMap data base at one time is not the way to use that data, or OpenStreetMap to best effect. * Only the ones for which we have explicit permission to use. ** except in those extremely limited circumstances which don't apply here. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses
Bonne année à tous, Je découvre cette note parlant de OSM-US et de l'import du bati et des adresses de New-York. https://www.mapbox.com/blog/nyc-and-openstreetmap-cooperating-through-open-data/ http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/diary/20418 Voici une zone où l'import a été effectué. Cela montre comment ces imports contribuent grandement à améliorer la carte de New-York. http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/40.60681/-73.96337 Ce qui permet par exemple de faire une recherche sur une adresse précise et de repérer l'immeuble : 1764, East 10th Street, New-York Pierre ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] OSM New-York - Import de contours de batiments et adresses
I would point to the NYC building import as another example of how imports can go badly, and be damaging for OpenStreetMap. To be beneficial, any import must be handled with extreme care. NYC has not done that. You'll have to read a very long thread to understand what is going on, from those who are involved. (on the us imports list) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports-us/2013-December/000447.html My summary is that the NYC building import is as flawed as most every other attempt to Get a bunch of data in OSM in a hurry. Just a few users are responsible for the bulk of the edits. Those few users are creating data at a rate that far exceeds their ability to curate the data on the way in; and so the data is poor in terms of quality. And the rate far exceeds the ability of the real mapping community to repair the imported data in a timely manner; and so the local mappers are overwhelmed and frustrated by the damage done by some small number of importers. The New York City building import is an example of an import gone wrong. I hope that the parties involved will continue to work on fixing their efforts, rather than just blasting bits into the data base. Improving address coverage in OpenStreetMap is a great benefit to the project, especially to those who wish to consume OpenStreetMap data. You can make an impact and improve OpenStreetMap data in your neighbourhood by surveying address data as you improve other data. No imports required. Just map it. :-) Building outlines are very pretty, but are not as broadly useful as addresses; we navigate to an address, not to a building rectangular in form, 32m on one side and 36m on the adjacent... That said, once you draw a building outline, that is a great place to hang the address tags. Mappy New Year. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
