Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NOVAM Viewer
On 15 Sep 2009, at 23:25, Christoph Böhme wrote: Peter, thank you for your comments. The problems with the current colour scheme in NOVAM are mostly down to the workflow that I originally envisioned for importing/activating NaPTAN bus stops. This workflow concentrated on the idea of merging OSM and NaPTAN bus stop nodes. Hence, I defined three basic states to distinguish OSM, NaPTAN and *merged* stops. However, it has turned out now that no one is actually merging stops but just deleting OSM nodes, modifying NaPTAN nodes and -- in Birmingham -- switching them on by adding highway=bus_stop. So, the three colours actually describe: yellow - rendered bus stops without NaPTAN data (old OSM stop) blue - not rendered bus stops with NaPTAN data orange - rendered bus stops with NaPTAN data I am not really sure what the best approach to redefining the colour scheme would be. One posibility would be to leave it as it is and just change the descriptions. Another, probaly better solution, would be to use blue for rendered stops with NaPTAN data and some other colour for not rendered NaPTAN stops (dark blue, grey, transparent?). Orange and green could then be used once a stop has naptan:verified=no removed to highlight bus stops which do not yet comply to the (to be defined) tagging scheme. I would like to use the tool to check for unverified NaPTAN stops, for additional stops in OSM that are not in NaPTAN and also for stop that have NaPTAN tags but don't have highway=bus_stop for some reason. ie: 1) Regular verified bus stops (with highway=bus_stop and not with 'verified=no') 2) Bus stops in OSM that don't have NaPTAN values (ie with highway=bus_stop but not 'naptan:AtcoCode' key) 3) NaPTAN stops in OSM which are not rendered on the map (ie they have a 'naptan:AtcoCode' but not a highway=bus_stop) This would allow me to complete the verification, and then keep highlight the differences that I have spotted between the two. I guess it could also be interesting to track the differences between the NaPTAN tag values and the OSM tag values to check which ones have been changed (ie 'local_ref' does not match 'naptan:indicator' but that is something to do later. Do also bear in mind that we have ferry terminals, airports, tram stops and taxi ranks to import at some point. Far fewer of these, but the same tool could be useful. PS: I am currently changing NOVAM and NPTG-Viewer to use Postgres/PostGIS instead of MySQL as I am moving to a new webserver at the end of September. For this reason I would like to postpone the implementation of a new colouring scheme until this move has completed. No problem - I will do a 'tidy up' review of NaPTAN when it is done. Thanks, Peter Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com schrieb: On 9 Sep 2009, at 22:06, Christoph Böhme wrote: Hi! Ciarán Mooney general.moo...@googlemail.com schrieb: I am trying to merge some bus stops on Penns Lane, Sutton Coldfield. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.53496lon=-1.81479zoom=15layers=B000FTF I have moved them all to the correct position. Some of them were spectacularly off, I was very surprised that the Naptan data was that bad! However on Xoff's little NOVAM viewer I can see they have changed colour to orange and they are incomplete, but I don't know why. What tags are they missing?? I can only see one orange stop which is missing the shelter tag. Did you manage to fix the other ones? The rules for the colouring of the bus stops are as follows: Bus stops should show up green if they have a highway-tag [1] AND a naptan:AtcoCode-tag AND NO naptan:unverified-tag AND NO naptan:verified=no AND a 'route_ref' tag AND a shelter tag. Ok, but why is the route_ref tag required? I don't intend to add route refs to the stops - I am expecting the software to pick that up from the associated routes. Can you remove that requirement or I might end up adding null route_ref tags just to make NOVAM useful to be ;) I am not sure that the shelter tag should be essential. I have added it if there is a shelter and left it off if there is not. Could you represent in the symbol if it is a shelter, but not use shelter=yes/no as a requirement for the stop being green A stop is considered a plain naptan stop (blue) if it has NO highway-tag AND a naptan:AtcoCode-tag AND a naptan:unverified-tag OR a naptan:verified=no. But our import had highway=bus_stop turned on - it would be much more useful for most people to ignore that tag for this test. Plain OSM stops (yellow) must have a highway-tag AND NO naptan:AtcoCode. Fine And finally there is the concept of a physically not present stop (grey). This is a bit unfinished as we have not really decided what to do with these stops. At the moment a stop classifies as not physically present if it has NO highway-tag (to prevent it from showing up on the map)
[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Postcodes
Hi all, Thought this may be of interest to some of you (obviously I don't mean for adding to OSM!), if you haven't already seen it... http://wikileaks.org/wiki/UK_government_database_of_all_1%2C841%2C177_post_codes_together_with_precise_geographic_coordinates_and_other_information%2C_8_Jul_2009 Regards, -- Paul Ledbury ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:27:16 +0100, Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi everyone Shelter = yes/no I think is essential to leave in as a requirement as to whether a bus stop is completley surveyed or not. For two reasons: indication of a shelter is a representation of what's present on the ground and it's a pretty siginificant presence ( after all we tag and map smaller things like post boxes and park benches!); and it's also useful for bus passengers to know whether they're going to get wet or not when waiting for a bus ( for when we can eventually actually render this on maps) How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ -- Robert ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
Robert Naylor wrote: On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:27:16 +0100, Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi everyone Shelter = yes/no I think is essential to leave in as a requirement as to whether a bus stop is completley surveyed or not. For two reasons: indication of a shelter is a representation of what's present on the ground and it's a pretty siginificant presence ( after all we tag and map smaller things like post boxes and park benches!); and it's also useful for bus passengers to know whether they're going to get wet or not when waiting for a bus ( for when we can eventually actually render this on maps) How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. Cheers, Christoph ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:27:16 +0100, Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi everyone Shelter = yes/no I think is essential to leave in as a requirement as to whether a bus stop is completley surveyed or not. For two reasons: indication of a shelter is a representation of what's present on the ground and it's a pretty siginificant presence ( after all we tag and map smaller things like post boxes and park benches!); and it's also useful for bus passengers to know whether they're going to get wet or not when waiting for a bus ( for when we can eventually actually render this on maps) How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. I don't see a barrier elsewhere. Let's mark what's physically there instead of the implications of the impact of not having whatever is being mapped. So if there's a raised kerb at the bus stop, mark that there is a raised kerb. kerb=raised? Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:58:15 +0100, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. Maybe just raised_kerb=yes or kerb=raised as I'm not sure if its just me but barrierfree doesn't really suggest wheelchair/buggy/what ever accessible. In fact it sounds more like tagging that there isn't a barrier=fence or something in between the bus and the bus stop. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] UK government postcode/geolocation/nhs information leaked
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/UK_government_database_of_all_1,841,177_post_codes_together_with_precise_geographic_coordinates_and_other_information,_8_Jul_2009 Shame we can't make use of it! Nick. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] UK government postcode/geolocation/nhs information leaked
We may not be able to use it but mabee we can use it to highlight inacuaracies in our data, how do the legalities stand whith that sort of thing? that could clean up the postcode data awesomly. Would this be a good time to petitioning the government to give us access to this data, after all, I'm sure we have people around here that are capable of wording such a request convincingly. JR 2009/9/16 Nick Barnes n...@thebarnesfamily.eu http://wikileaks.org/wiki/UK_government_database_of_all_1,841,177_post_codes_together_with_precise_geographic_coordinates_and_other_information,_8_Jul_2009 Shame we can't make use of it! Nick. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
On 15 Sep 2009, at 08:50, Peter Childs wrote: 2009/9/15 Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com: On 15 Sep 2009, at 08:27, Brian Prangle wrote: Hi everyone Shelter = yes/no I think is essential to leave in as a requirement as to whether a bus stop is completley surveyed or not. For two reasons: indication of a shelter is a representation of what's present on the ground and it's a pretty siginificant presence ( after all we tag and map smaller things like post boxes and park benches!); and it's also useful for bus passengers to know whether they're going to get wet or not when waiting for a bus ( for when we can eventually actually render this on maps) So we can have bench=yes;bin=yes;lamp_post=yes on the same node if there are these other items attached to it. Personally I would prefer bus_stop=shelter/pole/customary/etc/etc to shelter=yes/no as it allows much greater richness and gives us a place to identify as stop as customary easily. It also fits with the pattern 'key=x' and the 'x=' with more details of the feature Regards, Peter Do we need to add to this, Request Bus Stops, ie Bus stops where you need to stick out you hand, From Stops where the bus always stop, Bus stands; (Where buses stop and have a coffee break) and Bus stations (Which I suspect is a completely separate tag), We need to split what buses do at the stops away from what is at the stop. I guess. This is not a physical attribute of the stop so I agree that it probably belongs in another part of the data. A request stop on one service (or operator) might be a required stop for another (although it is normally only timing points where they have to stop and wait if they are ahead of schedule which might be what you mean). A duty layover (coffee break) may also vary by operator. Bus bays in bus stations do have different tags in NaPTAN (BCS) than ones on the street (BCT) but I don't think we currently make that distinction in OSM and I am not sure it matters a lot. Possibly we make that clear by wrapping it up on a stop area of type 'bus station'. Peter Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] What's in a name
At 08:19 PM 15/09/2009, Chris Hill wrote: I live near Hull, its proper name of course is Kingston upon Hull. It has the long name on the map, but everyone knows it as Hull. I think it would be better to use the shorter name and adding the long name as alt_name. Any comments? Cheers, Chris Sounds good. In country tags, I've also used official_name (not in map features). They get at bit long too. Mike ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
Robert Naylor wrote: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:58:15 +0100, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. Maybe just raised_kerb=yes or kerb=raised as I'm not sure if its just me but barrierfree doesn't really suggest wheelchair/buggy/what ever accessible. kerb=raised is a good idea (which could be combined with kerb=lowered for pedestrian crossings) as the bus stop only becomes accessible (for wheelchair users) if it is served by a low-floor bus. In fact it sounds more like tagging that there isn't a barrier=fence or something in between the bus and the bus stop. That because I should have consulted a dictionary instead of translating the german barrierefrei to english literally. Then I would have noticed that what I meant is accessible and that barrier-free is not widely used (according to wikipedia [1]). Cheers, Christoph [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier-free ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
Thomas Wood wrote: 2009/9/16 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:27:16 +0100, Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com wrote: snip How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. I don't see a barrier elsewhere. Let's mark what's physically there instead of the implications of the impact of not having whatever is being mapped. So if there's a raised kerb at the bus stop, mark that there is a raised kerb. kerb=raised? Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb I have a feeling this is what the germans may call a highway=platform Well we do but only at a bus station and not a single bus stop. However, it would describe the thing quite well, I think. Christoph (Anyone feel a massive pt scheme tagging discussion coming on?) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] What's in a name
'name' should, where available, contain the official place name. If a common name like 'Hull' is in use, then that's what the 'alt_name' tag is for. One problem in using other names would be that you wouldn't be able to reliably correlate different geoname resources. The mkgmap mailing list only today had a thread about using online geoname resources to extract the most appropriate place name to label map tiles, that sort of application wouldn't be possible if names didn't follow the official designation. Another problem would be that some places have more than one alternative name, who would decide which one is 'the' name'? It would cause arguments (and edit wars?) over which 'name' should be the one to be used. There's no ambiguity if the official place name is always used, and alt_name used for the alternatives. Chris Hill wrote: I live near Hull, its proper name of course is Kingston upon Hull. It has the long name on the map, but everyone knows it as Hull. I think it would be better to use the shorter name and adding the long name as alt_name. Any comments? Cheers, Chris ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 16:58:09 +0100, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:58:15 +0100, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. Maybe just raised_kerb=yes or kerb=raised as I'm not sure if its just me but barrierfree doesn't really suggest wheelchair/buggy/what ever accessible. kerb=raised is a good idea (which could be combined with kerb=lowered for pedestrian crossings) as the bus stop only becomes accessible (for wheelchair users) if it is served by a low-floor bus. I'll be switching to using kerb=raised now. Although I assume if they've altered the kerb that they buses serving the route would be low-floor buses. On second thoughts after hearing about a bus stop which got built on the wrong street - and maintained maybe not :) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
