Re: [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk?
Sorry if I've not seen the old posts on this, the wiki pages are contradictory which is why I asked the question. In the UK we are defining Trunk or Primary based on some arbitrary definition not on anything that is of use to any user or renderer. What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to build on. Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all. The tag we give it should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance, size and potential timings/traffic flow. A Trunk road that is a dual carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less! Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 03/11/2013 00:14, Tom Hughes wrote: On 02/11/13 18:47, Jonathan wrote: I'm not clear with the distinction of a Trunk road in the UK. The wiki suggests a trunk road is high performance roads that don't meet the requirement for highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway=motorway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway which to me would suggest an A road that is a dual carriageway. Further on in the wiki it says that any A road in the UK signed with Green signs is a Trunk road. I know of many Green A roads that aren't much more than country lanes, they are definitely not high performance and I don't feel they should be Trunk roads, I feel they should be Primary roads. It's really very simple, and has been discussed here many, many times before and I'm sure there are multiple pages on the wiki covering it. First, forget the question of which roads are formally designated as trunk roads by the Department for Transport (which is not very many these days). Second, understand that there is something called the Primary Route Network defined by DfT which covers those A roads connecting specific major towns. Those are the A roads with the green signs, and are what we tag as highway=trunk. Other A roads are highway=primary. In many cases those will be major roads, often ex trunk roads, but in more rural areas like the highlands they might look more like a B road does in other parts of the country. That is irrelevant though. In the UK it is really only residential/unclassified/tertiary where you need to make a judgement call. Everything else has a well defined mapping: Motorways = highway=motorway Green Signed A Roads = highway=trunk White Signed A Roads = highway=primary B Roads = highway=secondary Hopefully that will explain everything ;-) Tom ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk?
Sorry if I've not seen the old posts on this, the wiki pages are contradictory which is why I asked the question. In the UK we are defining Trunk or Primary based on some arbitrary definition not on anything that is of use to any user or renderer. What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to build on. Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all. The tag we give it should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance, size and potential timings/traffic flow. A Trunk road that is a dual carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less! Other tags such as lanes=*, width=*, surface=*, maxspeed=* etc... are for more the detailed nuances of route calculations based on the physical properties of the road. Or for how a renderer could choose to emphasize certain roads over others. Of course the bendyness of the road should be interfered from the geometry of the node positions themselves. HTH. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk?
On 03/11/13 19:41, Tom Hughes wrote: On 03/11/13 19:07, Jonathan wrote: What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to build on. Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all. The tag we give it should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance, size and potential timings/traffic flow. A Trunk road that is a dual carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less! The Primary Route Network is not arbitrary. It is made of of the most important routes connecting a defined set of major towns. Even where that is not a particularly major road it is still the main road between those towns and as such deserves to be highlighted. See wikipedia for more on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_the_United_Kingdom#Classification Basically a road in the PRN is one which provides the most satisfactory route for through traffic between places of traffic importance. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk? PITA?
Hi, On 03.11.2013 21:51, Jonathan wrote: I've just googled PITA and it would appear that it stands for Pain In The Ass. Yeah, it's a common colloquial term for things that make life harder instead of easier, and used on this particular list quite often. I agree that it might sound offensive to someone not familiar with the term but I wouldn't consider don't be such a PITA about this a personal attack! Let's put it this way: You're essentially explaining to a couple hundred UK mappers that they have, in your opinion, been doing it wrong for the better part of a decade. Do you expect everyone to go: Oh why Jonathan, I hadn't thought about that but now that you say it, I suddenly see the error of my ways? Now that you have retaliated to that PITA email with something most others will also consider a bit rude, namely publishing a private message without the consent of its writer (if you had wanted to vent your anger, publishing it without the sender's name would have been sufficient), maybe we can go back to normal and you can explain which bits of TomH's explanation of the status quo you haven't understood. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk?
On 3 Nov 2013, at 20:17, Robert Norris rw_nor...@hotmail.com wrote: Sorry if I've not seen the old posts on this, the wiki pages are contradictory which is why I asked the question. In the UK we are defining Trunk or Primary based on some arbitrary definition not on anything that is of use to any user or renderer. What we should be mapping is reality, so that people can use that data to build on. Whether a road is signed in Green, Pink or Purple tells a user nothing, it may have a legal definition but that is all. The tag we give it should tell the user something about the road's capabilities, importance, size and potential timings/traffic flow. A Trunk road that is a dual carriageway with a maxspeed of 70 mph is very different to a Trunk road that winds around fields and has a maxspeed of 50 mph or less! Other tags such as lanes=*, width=*, surface=*, maxspeed=* etc... are for more the detailed nuances of route calculations based on the physical properties of the road. Or for how a renderer could choose to emphasize certain roads over others. Of course the bendyness of the road should be interfered from the geometry of the node positions themselves. ITO World make a series of maps which highlight some of the above additional tags that can be added to OSM so that routers can decide whether each road is suitable based on objective data, rather than broad generalisations. http://www.itoworld.com/map/group/2 Shaun McDonald Developer ITO World ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Primary or Trunk?
At least we don't have the situation in Copenhagen, where route 16 goes from being a motorway to a primary to a trunk to a primary to a trunk to a tertiary. It's wider than Euston Road as it goes past the centre of the city... http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/55.6940/12.5479 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Moderation (WAS: Primary or Trunk? PITA?)
Hi all, I think its probably my turn to step in and moderate on this one given that Jonathan's original post stems from me asking him about some road classifications in his home town. To summarise: a simple question was asked entirely inocently, and I am 100% sure that it was not meant to belittle 10 years of tagging. An answer was given in quite a matter of fact tone which in face to face communication would be fine but due to the un human nature of email could be interpreted as negative. Again I am 100% sure it was not meant negatively. Similarly I have had many positive conversations with Chris, so hopefully his response was purely down to a misinterpretation of the emails. Lessons: * We should be able to explain the reasoning behind our tagging if asked. * Beware of the differences between email and face to face communication. It also helps if you are able to meet fellow mappers from time to time. * Off list replies are best reserved for situations where there is detailed conversation between two mappers and both feel that they are swamping the public mailing list. Keep it peaceful, Rob ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
