Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question! The tagging numbers are skewed because I tediously edited every odd variant I could find, mostly outside of Europe. Those included: name=RV Dump (with other tags) name=RV Dump Station (with no other tags) amenity=dump_station amenity=dump-station amenity=dumpstation amenity=dump amenity=RV Dump amenity=fuel;dump station;convenience highway=service + service=dumpstation shop=fuel;dump station;convenience shop=fuel;services=dump station;mini-mart;propane leisure=caravan_site + note=Motorhome dump station recycling=dump-station recycling=waste_basket + note=RV Dump Station recycling=waste_basket + waste=excrement. amenity=waste_disposal + waste=excrement (which variously meant pump-out, dog_bin, and dump station). tourism=caravan_site + note=Dumping place tourism=information + description=RV dump man_made=wastewater_plant + tag=Motorhome dumping station amenity=dump (mostly refers to garbage dumps, but a few were RV holding tank emptying spots). The term toilets:disposal was something I coined a few years back for walk-up toilets.: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside of the UK. -- Apparently some people care a lot what the name of the tag is. I am not among those people. I care that the feature has rational tagging, as to attract enough interested from the osm-carto maintainers to actually render it: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1466 This feature is glaringly missing from campground and canal maps rendered with OSM data. Monolithic tagging matching the desire of richardwest would be fine with me: *amenity=elsan_point* *amenity=pump-out* *amenity=rv_dump_station* *waterway=elsan_point* *waterway=pump-out* Plus the same for toilets drinking_water, and fuel (in particular waterway=fuel). In that scheme, *waterway=elsan_point* + *amenity=elsan_point* is a sensible combination. Access tags are need to cover the case of facilities available only to overnight guests, since that case is so common. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
To summarize: Nobody likes to talk about waste, so euphemisms abound. Past tagging has been all over the map, and the same tags were used in Europe for dog_waste bins as well as motorhome dump points. - The basic styles of holding tank station seem to be: - elsan point (walk up dumping basin)(also called a CDP) - round drain (gravity drain hose : 3 in diameter in the USA) - pump-out (mechanical suction). Accepting: - Gray water (usually) - Bilge water (rarely) - Black water (usually) - Black water but not gray water (occasionally) Prohibiting: - Certain tank chemicals Offering at the same location: - Rinse water which may not be potable. - Drinking water (amenity=water_point). - Drinking water (amenity=drinking_water). - Walk up toilets. Access Rules: - From water or land, or in a few cases both. - Free, paid in advance, pay at the pump with coins or cards, or pay at the office. - Part of regional network or not (card key, payment card). - Accessible to overnight guests only, or to everyone. Position may be: - Located on a dock next to waterway=fuel (often) - Located on a separate dock. - Located on land, even it only serves marine users. - Located at each camping pitch. - Located at a central location, with varying degrees of accessibility by large boats or motorhomes (often). - Unknown (many RV and Marina sites list dump services on their websites, but the exact location does not appear on the brochure or map)(often). - Associated with a walk up toilet, or not. Rendered by: - Opensea map, and nothing else prominent. - Marine fuel, and amenity=water_point are very similar. - A chemical toilet is something completely different in the USA. Aporta potty is a walk up toilet in the USA. German facilities sport about a dozen designs of coin pay stations incorporating a CDP and round drain into one unit, and sometimes a pumpout, water point, and rinse hose for good measure. - So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so a campground map looks proper when brought up on a smartphone? ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 23/04/15 21:53, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so
a campground map looks proper when brought up on a smartphone?
Well the starting point there is a proper database of information which
can be accessed via the phone. It would have a lot more information than
I would anticipate adding to the tagging on OSM! But that is a different
problem.
I could make an argument for this being part of tag:waste_disposal as
that is an integral part of the clear out of both boat and RV/van but I
think that this is better, and might become a base for solid
waste/recycling at a later date. The access to both would probably be
identical
tag - disposal_point
Values
pump_out:grey (No sewage)
pump_out:black(Contains Sewage)
pump_out:bilge(May contain oil)
pump_out:restricted (note advise restrictions)
dump:black(may have restrictions?)
chemical:contained(cartridge style disposal)
chemical:clean_down('wet' disposal with clean down facility)
chemical:gel_only (may be other restrictions depending on country?)
Access
clients_only (marina or campsite or leisure facility clients)
public_free (council provided facility?)
public_fee:rates (see debate in Oz about lack of public
facilities even if they paid for access)
LOCATION should show if it's private access to boats or other vehicles
Payment methods or private access also expand the data.
Location is dependent on how one is mapping. A CDP may be inside the
toilet and shower block which is the case in good UK sites, in it's own
room normally, so may be tagged on the building. Some RV/caravan sites
may have dump points adjacent to a pitch, which will also provide mains
electric, TV, broadband, and water hookup. Adding icons for all of those
is impractical, which is why I say the smartphone would get that
information from the pitch booking facility, but communal fill up points
would be tagged. However none of that is part of the disposal icon?
amenity=drinking_water - lacks an indication if it can be used
for fillup
amenity=water_point - lacks the 'potable' tagging
waterway=water_point- HAS been dropped in favour of the amenity
entry so why should disposal be different?
It is interesting that
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumpout was
rejected because it was 'only for boats' or very strangely 'recycling'.
I suppose we could hook the black waste direct into the bio-digester ;)
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
___
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 23/04/15 17:53, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside of the UK. chemical toilet waste disposal unit is the more normal UK usage, along with grey and black waste water disposal, be that marine or land. Dump stations would seem to be American, although the Ozies seem to switch between the two. Dump station DOES seem to be specifically for hooking up RV and other vehicle pump out hoses and NOT for the safe disposal of chemical toilet waste. The two are rather different facilities! As I said ... if a point is still marked on the ground as an 'Elsan Point' then I would expect to maintain that name, but I'm not happy with the way a generic alternative is being developed. I don't have time to monitor the 'tagging' list ... I'll just carry on following local practice and sanitary_dump_station does not fit the bill, but I'm not sure just what is a suitable alternative to correctly tag the facilities I've got survey notes on for our local caravan sites ... what would have been legal as an elsan_point in the past would probably be shut down by the local council today anyway! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 22/04/15 23:17, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Note a number of people don't like the word disposal, and persist in tagging toilets:type instead, with the same data. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question! Use as a value rather than a key is more of a problem. ACCESS to the facility is a secondary matter. And I can give you examples where a disposal point will serve both boat and caravan traffic. The facility is a disposal point, rather than a 'waterway disposal point' and and I would be happy with the current few 'elsan' values in tags if that is how they are designated on the ground, with a separate generic amenity tag. This is perhaps where a waterways map would only support waterway activities, while a general map would link into the adjacent usage. What is needed however is consistency to using 'amenity' or some other key, or defining a key on it's own which is where the toilets:disposal is the most popular usage. In waterway terms, disposal of grey_water may well be separate to disposal of chemical toilet waste, so waste_disposal with the correct values may be a more generic solution to the problem. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Fossils stones
Several buildings in Birmingham (and no doubt elsewhere) have visible fossils in their stonework. I'm interested in tagging these; can anyone suggest how best to do so? Likewise, some have identifiable and unusual types of stonework; we can use material= for that; is anyone already doing so? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
