Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

Some great ideas and tools already shared and only January 3rd!

This made me think I should set up a wiki page but I have been beaten to
it. I've expanded on the page to add links to all the resources being
discussed here. Page at:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Quarterly_Projects

*Rob*

p.s. Big thank you to our wiki system admins who have now added the
VisualEditor to the wiki. This makes it much easier to edit the wiki so no
excuses for not keeping the pages up to date :-)
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Re: [Talk-GB] UKOSM or OSMUK or OSMGB proposed aims

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 3 January 2016 at 16:45, Brian Prangle  wrote:
> Proposed aims for UKOSM:
>
> The aims of (eventual name) are:
>
> To increase the number of data contributors;develop their skills and keep
> their motivation so that new contributors become active mappers to improve
> and maintain OpenStreetMap data in the UK.
>
> To provide a national point of contact for UK organisations wishing to use
> OSM data or contribute data to OSM.
>
> To engage in  activities and provide  services that are consistent with
> achieving these aims.

I think those are all good. From a personal point of view (and to
allow more flexibility if we want to) I'd also like to see:

* Something more explicit to allow the group to create / support /
encourage the use of tools to improve OpenStreetMap data in the UK.
(The first point above could be read as just focusing on the mappers,
rather than the wider aim of improving the data by any other means.)

* Something more explicit about promoting / encouraging / helping
facilitate the use and contribution of data from/to OSM. (The second
point above only talks about being a point of contact, and not
actually acting to encourage these activities.)

I'm not saying that the group should necessarily focus a lot of
resources on either of these additional areas, but it might be better
to be more general from the outset to cover ourselves in case any
activities stray into these areas. Depending on what form the
organisation takes, we may be more or less constrained to keep within
our stated aims -- particularly if it comes to anything that could be
seen as speaking in favour of compatible OpenData in the political
arena.

Best wishes,

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UKOSM or OSMUK or OSMGB proposed aims

[Rob Nickerson]

On 3 January 2016 at 16:45, Brian Prangle  wrote:
>> Proposed aims for UKOSM:
>>
>> The aims of (eventual name) are:
>>
>> To increase the number of data contributors;develop their skills and keep
>> their motivation so that new contributors become active mappers to
improve
>> and maintain OpenStreetMap data in the UK.
>>
>> To provide a national point of contact for UK organisations wishing to
use
>> OSM data or contribute data to OSM.
>>
>> To engage in  activities and provide  services that are consistent with
>> achieving these aims.

Robert W wrote:
>I think those are all good. From a personal point of view (and to
>allow more flexibility if we want to) I'd also like to see:
>
>* Something more explicit to allow the group to create / support /
>encourage the use of tools to improve OpenStreetMap data in the UK.
>(The first point above could be read as just focusing on the mappers,
>rather than the wider aim of improving the data by any other means.)
>
>

Hi Robert,

I think your first point is already covered in Brian's first. As a general
note (as I was getting confused whilst discussing this at the mapping event
last week) the aim here is to get a high level set of aims. To test them
you should ask yourself "does my project idea fit within the aims". In this
case I think tools to improve data ("the project") would be one solution to
the "keep them motivated [...] to improve [...] OpenStreetMap data" in
Brian's first point. To use the earlier phrase Get, Train, Retain (or
Obtain, Train, Retain if you prefer :-) ) then this would be part of the
Retain strategy. Shout out if you disagree and I may be incorrectly
interpreting.

Your other point on data users is a good one. I'll let others weigh in with
their views but I was also thinking that "facilitate the [...} contribution
of data [...] to OSM" is needed. This is the "promote the release of
OpenData" but put in a way that also covers other data sets. I like your
wording here.

Best,
*Rob*
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Dave F.]

Hi BZ

I put all other data relating to the whole school (name, address, 
website etc) on the boundary way. Many organisations such as schools, 
universities & hospitals etc have distinctive departments. These can be 
identified by adding names to each building.


Dave F.

On 03/01/2016 13:40, Bogus Zaba wrote:

On 02/01/16 15:24, Dave F. wrote:

On 02/01/2016 12:51, Brian Prangle wrote:

That gives a total of 32,318 schools. Taginfo shows 27,191 schools
which is 84.1% coverage in OSM. However 6,348 are represented as
nodes only. It would be great to have these as polygons and
associated buildings. It would also be great to have close to 100%
coverage.

This data comes from a cursory web search. If anyone has better or
newer data, it's welcome.


 From experience I would say schools are the entities that are most
likely to be mapped with duplicating nodes & polygons, so I'm unsure
if those numbers are truly representative. I've even noticed that
individual school buildings are occasionally tagged as amenity=school
causing a similar problem to Cambridge University..

The boundary polygon should include not only the buildings &
playgrounds, but recreation grounds/sports pitches

---

Local school here (Denbighshire, Wales) has been shown as a boundary
polygon with tag amenity=school and the main school building is a
polygon within the boundary tagged as building=school. Both polygons
have a name tag which is the same (Ysgol Hiraddug).

Is this the right way to tag?




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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[SK53]

Generally I will place the name tag on the school grounds and not on the
buildings. This allows individual buildings to be given names, if they have
them: e.g., Science Block, Nursery.

A couple of complications:

   - Campus sites: several schools share facilities, particularly playing
   fields. The most complex one I know of is in Northwich
   . The shared
   playing fields are mapped as leisure=recreation_ground with the individual
   schools now being mapped as polygons, but sometimes it is difficult without
   good local knowledge to separate out distinct institutions.
   - School Recreation Ground also available out of school hour, either as
   a local rec., or in association with a sports centre co-located with the
   school. In this case I think it can be left to the mapper's discretion as
   to whether the school polygon includes the playing field or not.

Jerry

On 3 January 2016 at 13:40, Bogus Zaba  wrote:

> On 02/01/16 15:24, Dave F. wrote:
> > On 02/01/2016 12:51, Brian Prangle wrote:
> >> That gives a total of 32,318 schools. Taginfo shows 27,191 schools
> >> which is 84.1% coverage in OSM. However 6,348 are represented as
> >> nodes only. It would be great to have these as polygons and
> >> associated buildings. It would also be great to have close to 100%
> >> coverage.
> >>
> >> This data comes from a cursory web search. If anyone has better or
> >> newer data, it's welcome.
> >>
> >
> > From experience I would say schools are the entities that are most
> > likely to be mapped with duplicating nodes & polygons, so I'm unsure
> > if those numbers are truly representative. I've even noticed that
> > individual school buildings are occasionally tagged as amenity=school
> > causing a similar problem to Cambridge University..
> >
> > The boundary polygon should include not only the buildings &
> > playgrounds, but recreation grounds/sports pitches
> >
> > ---
> Local school here (Denbighshire, Wales) has been shown as a boundary
> polygon with tag amenity=school and the main school building is a
> polygon within the boundary tagged as building=school. Both polygons
> have a name tag which is the same (Ysgol Hiraddug).
>
> Is this the right way to tag?
>
> --
> Dr Bogumil N Zaba
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Bogus Zaba]

On 02/01/16 15:24, Dave F. wrote:
> On 02/01/2016 12:51, Brian Prangle wrote:
>> That gives a total of 32,318 schools. Taginfo shows 27,191 schools
>> which is 84.1% coverage in OSM. However 6,348 are represented as
>> nodes only. It would be great to have these as polygons and
>> associated buildings. It would also be great to have close to 100%
>> coverage.
>>
>> This data comes from a cursory web search. If anyone has better or
>> newer data, it's welcome.
>>
>
> From experience I would say schools are the entities that are most
> likely to be mapped with duplicating nodes & polygons, so I'm unsure
> if those numbers are truly representative. I've even noticed that
> individual school buildings are occasionally tagged as amenity=school
> causing a similar problem to Cambridge University..
>
> The boundary polygon should include not only the buildings &
> playgrounds, but recreation grounds/sports pitches
>
> ---
Local school here (Denbighshire, Wales) has been shown as a boundary
polygon with tag amenity=school and the main school building is a
polygon within the boundary tagged as building=school. Both polygons
have a name tag which is the same (Ysgol Hiraddug).

Is this the right way to tag?

-- 
Dr Bogumil N Zaba


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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Bogus Zaba]

Thanks. That makes sense and avoids the name duplication.


On 03/01/16 14:31, SK53 wrote:
> Generally I will place the name tag on the school grounds and not on
> the buildings. This allows individual buildings to be given names, if
> they have them: e.g., Science Block, Nursery.
>
> A couple of complications:
>
>   * Campus sites: several schools share facilities, particularly
> playing fields. The most complex one I know of is in Northwich
> . The shared
> playing fields are mapped as leisure=recreation_ground with the
> individual schools now being mapped as polygons, but sometimes it
> is difficult without good local knowledge to separate out distinct
> institutions.
>   * School Recreation Ground also available out of school hour, either
> as a local rec., or in association with a sports centre co-located
> with the school. In this case I think it can be left to the
> mapper's discretion as to whether the school polygon includes the
> playing field or not.
>
> Jerry
>
>
> On 3 January 2016 at 13:40, Bogus Zaba  > wrote:
>
> On 02/01/16 15:24, Dave F. wrote:
> > On 02/01/2016 12:51, Brian Prangle wrote:
> >> That gives a total of 32,318 schools. Taginfo shows 27,191 schools
> >> which is 84.1% coverage in OSM. However 6,348 are represented as
> >> nodes only. It would be great to have these as polygons and
> >> associated buildings. It would also be great to have close to 100%
> >> coverage.
> >>
> >> This data comes from a cursory web search. If anyone has better or
> >> newer data, it's welcome.
> >>
> >
> > From experience I would say schools are the entities that are most
> > likely to be mapped with duplicating nodes & polygons, so I'm unsure
> > if those numbers are truly representative. I've even noticed that
> > individual school buildings are occasionally tagged as
> amenity=school
> > causing a similar problem to Cambridge University..
> >
> > The boundary polygon should include not only the buildings &
> > playgrounds, but recreation grounds/sports pitches
> >
> > ---
> Local school here (Denbighshire, Wales) has been shown as a boundary
> polygon with tag amenity=school and the main school building is a
> polygon within the boundary tagged as building=school. Both polygons
> have a name tag which is the same (Ysgol Hiraddug).
>
> Is this the right way to tag?
>
> --
> Dr Bogumil N Zaba
>
>
> ___
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>
>


-- 
Dr Bogumil N Zaba


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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Meet Abbots Bromley 30th Dec

[Dudley Ibbett]

I would also add my thanks.

I've added the footpaths etc around Colton where I went after lunch.  There are 
more building to be added to the village but the Bing imagery isn't that good.  

I've not looked at the walk we did in the morning yet so there might be a few 
more details to add north of Abbots Bromley.

Regards

Dudley



To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
From: ajt1...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 23:18:59 +
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Meet Abbots Bromley 30th Dec


  

  
  
Many thanks from me too.  



Here's one quick view of the progress so far:



http://i.imgur.com/UPTks3v.png



It might be missing some updates (and is certainly missing the town
detail) but does show a very different picture to what there was a
couple of weeks ago.



Cheers,



Andy





On 30/12/2015 18:10, Philip Barnes
  wrote:



  On Wed, 2015-12-30 at 17:46 +, SK53 wrote:
  

  Many thanks to all who came despite the weather: a very
decent turn out of 7 people from 4 Midland counties.



  
  Jerry


  
  

  
  Thank you for organising it Jerry.
  

  
  A good day, despite the weather.
  

  
  Phil 
  


  On 29 December 2015 at 13:47, SK53 
wrote:


  

  Just a reminder that this meeting is tomorrow.
I've added some details on the wiki.



  
  Meeting times: 10:30 Buttercross, Abbots Bromley

  
 12:30-12:50 Coach &
Horses.

  
  

  
  The weather forecast is not promising, wrap up well.
  I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to predict a few weeks
  in advance with what seems like an endless sequence of
  winter storms coming in.

  


I'm now going out to enjoy some sunny weather.





Jerry

  
  


  
  


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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 2 January 2016 at 12:51, Brian Prangle  wrote:
> Happy New Year! (and Happy New Mapping Year!) The first Quarterly Project
> for 2016 is now under way and is Schools. There are really two strands to
> this project.
>
> The first is to remotely (armchai)r map and get an increase in coverage of
> the number of schools
>
> The latest government data is for January 2012 which shows 24,372 schools in
> England (including nursery schools, state-funded primary schools,
> state-funded secondary schools, special schools, pupil referral units and
> independent schools.)

Since most of the code could be re-used from what I already do for
Post Offices, I've put together a quick comparison tool to compare the
Edubase data for England with what's currently in OSM:
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/schools/progress/

It's a bit rough at the moment. I'm currently only using the data for
England, and only fetching OSM *ways* tagged with amenity=school .
There are no markers on the slippy map yet either, and the matching
process is rather basic. With luck, I'll have some time to make some
improvements in the next couple of weeks. In the mean time, the lists
of non-matching items will hopefully still be useful to people.

One caveat though -- I'm not completely sure that the Edubase data is
(or should be) available under an OSM-compatible Licence (the OGL in
this case). In particular the addresses and postcodes may be tainted
by AddressBase. Until the licence is confirmed, we should avoid using
Edubase data directly to add or edit Schools in OSM. There should be
sufficient other sources available though.

Best wishes,

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Colin Smale]

Great idea Robert! 

Any idea why it is not matching Gravesend Grammar School (at DA12 2PR)
which is in OSM with amenity=school on way
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/142625579 ? I have noticed several
other schools in Gravesend and surroundings which as far as I can see
are in OSM and not being picked up by your scan.

//colin 

On 2016-01-03 19:43, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

> On 2 January 2016 at 12:51, Brian Prangle  wrote: 
> 
>> Happy New Year! (and Happy New Mapping Year!) The first Quarterly Project
>> for 2016 is now under way and is Schools. There are really two strands to
>> this project.
>> 
>> The first is to remotely (armchai)r map and get an increase in coverage of
>> the number of schools
>> 
>> The latest government data is for January 2012 which shows 24,372 schools in
>> England (including nursery schools, state-funded primary schools,
>> state-funded secondary schools, special schools, pupil referral units and
>> independent schools.)
> 
> Since most of the code could be re-used from what I already do for
> Post Offices, I've put together a quick comparison tool to compare the
> Edubase data for England with what's currently in OSM:
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/schools/progress/
> 
> It's a bit rough at the moment. I'm currently only using the data for
> England, and only fetching OSM *ways* tagged with amenity=school .
> There are no markers on the slippy map yet either, and the matching
> process is rather basic. With luck, I'll have some time to make some
> improvements in the next couple of weeks. In the mean time, the lists
> of non-matching items will hopefully still be useful to people.
> 
> One caveat though -- I'm not completely sure that the Edubase data is
> (or should be) available under an OSM-compatible Licence (the OGL in
> this case). In particular the addresses and postcodes may be tainted
> by AddressBase. Until the licence is confirmed, we should avoid using
> Edubase data directly to add or edit Schools in OSM. There should be
> sufficient other sources available though.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Robert.
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 3 January 2016 at 19:04, Colin Smale  wrote:
> Any idea why it is not matching Gravesend Grammar School (at DA12 2PR) which
> is in OSM with amenity=school on way
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/142625579 ? I have noticed several other
> schools in Gravesend and surroundings which as far as I can see are in OSM
> and not being picked up by your scan.

If you look in the first table, you'll see that Edubase school 118987
"St Joseph's Convent Independent Preparatory School" has been matched
with OSM way 142625579. As I said, the matching is rather simplistic.
I currently just go through each Edubase entry in turn and take the
closest as-yet-unmatched OSM amenity=school object to the postcode
centroid. Once an Edubase entry has taken an OSM object, that OSM
object is no longer a potential matching candidate for any other
Edubase Entries. I can probably improve the matching by preferring an
exact name match if one exists. Fuzzy name matching may be a bit
harder.

Robert.

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[Talk-GB] UKOSM or OSMUK or OSMGB proposed aims

[Brian Prangle]

Hi everyone

I've tried to summarise what we discussed on our initial concall and what
Rob's survey revealed into a high-level and short set of aims. It's an
initial draft  and open for comment before our next concall (TBA before end
of Jan). I've included for comparison the aims from those countries that
have established  a local national "chapter". I'm afraid the translation
software I used just couldn't do justice to Japanese!

Proposed aims for UKOSM:


The aims of (eventual name) are:

To increase the number of data contributors;develop their skills and keep
their motivation so that new contributors become active mappers to improve
and maintain OpenStreetMap data in the UK.

To provide a national point of contact for UK organisations wishing to use
OSM data or contribute data to OSM.

To engage in  activities and provide  services that are consistent with
achieving these aims.



Swiss

The associations purpose is the support and advancement of projects,
people, companies and organisations in all language regions of Switzerland
that collect, use, process and distribute open and free geo-data. Such
activities can be of non-commercial as well as commercial nature.

The association has no commercial purpose

US

We strive to support the OpenStreetMap project in the United States through
fostering awareness, ensuring broad availability of data, continuous
quality improvement, and an active community.


France

L’objectif de l’association est de promouvoir le projet OpenStreetMap et
 notamment la collecte, la diffusion et l'utilisation de données cartographiques
 sous des licences libres. Le règlement intérieur liste les licences
libres applicables
 aux données géographiques.

 The objective of the association is to promote the OpenStreetMap Project
including the collection , dissemination and use of mapping data under free
 licenses. The rules list free licenses applicable to geographic data.

Iceland

The purpose of the Society is to advocate for open and free GIS data

 Regards


Brian
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Rob Nickerson]

>I've imported a current GB extract with osm2pgsql I find:
>
>
>
>Bye
>Frederik
>

Good analysis there Frederik. Are you able to share the outputs so that
others can use it to help the mapping efforts? A slippy map or maproulette
task would be good but maybe just the raw data to get us started if your
busy.

Cheers,
*Rob*
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Colin Smale]

Aah, I see... I didn't expect to find it there! St Josephs is in OSM,
but as a node [1], which are not included as yet. I think some kind of
matching on the name is probably going to be important. Many schools are
also tagged with address data, so addr:postcode may also be a good
matching key - possibly even tighter than the name, given that schools
probably have their own postcode, and that the school names can change. 

//colin

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/529528620 

On 2016-01-03 20:11, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

> On 3 January 2016 at 19:04, Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> Any idea why it is not matching Gravesend Grammar School (at DA12 2PR) which
>> is in OSM with amenity=school on way
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/142625579 ? I have noticed several other
>> schools in Gravesend and surroundings which as far as I can see are in OSM
>> and not being picked up by your scan.
> 
> If you look in the first table, you'll see that Edubase school 118987
> "St Joseph's Convent Independent Preparatory School" has been matched
> with OSM way 142625579. As I said, the matching is rather simplistic.
> I currently just go through each Edubase entry in turn and take the
> closest as-yet-unmatched OSM amenity=school object to the postcode
> centroid. Once an Edubase entry has taken an OSM object, that OSM
> object is no longer a potential matching candidate for any other
> Edubase Entries. I can probably improve the matching by preferring an
> exact name match if one exists. Fuzzy name matching may be a bit
> harder.
> 
> Robert.
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[SK53]

Hi Rob et al.,

I've created a quick umap instance

showing school points within a school polygon.

If anyone can tell me how to remove the bit of html which makes the url to
the polygon not work, do let me know.

Regards,

Jerry

On 3 January 2016 at 17:45, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> >I've imported a current GB extract with osm2pgsql I find:
> >
> >
> >
> >Bye
> >Frederik
> >
>
> Good analysis there Frederik. Are you able to share the outputs so that
> others can use it to help the mapping efforts? A slippy map or maproulette
> task would be good but maybe just the raw data to get us started if your
> busy.
>
> Cheers,
> *Rob*
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] 2016 first quarterly project:Schools

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01/03/2016 06:45 PM, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Good analysis there Frederik. Are you able to share the outputs so that
> others can use it to help the mapping efforts? A slippy map or
> maproulette task would be good but maybe just the raw data to get us
> started if your busy.

I'm afraid I can't offer more than the raw data - three CSV files, one
with all points contained in other stuff, one with all polygons
contained in other stuff, and one with all stuff that is somehow near
other stuff. For the polygon IDs, a negative ID points to a relation.

http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/gb_schools.zip

Bye
Frederik
-- 
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