Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

[Rob Nickerson]

Many thanks. Now shared with Richard, Nick and Jerry. Wont share publicly
yet as I wouldn't want to disrupt the project comms plan.

@Dave: Oh yes this is definitely not for OSM import. It's node data for
linear features for a start!! No, instead this can be used to identify
possible missing paths which should then be investigated using ground
survey, aerial imagery and GPS (or Strava) data. See it as a helping hand
to direct you where to look.

Best,
Rob





On Thu, 10 May 2018, 13:54 SK53,  wrote:

> Quick correction, as I uploaded heat map to wrong Flickr account. This is
> the proper link: https://flic.kr/p/JSXgyh.
>
> J
>

On 10 May 2018 1:54 p.m., "SK53"  wrote:

Quick correction, as I uploaded heat map to wrong Flickr account. This is
the proper link: https://flic.kr/p/JSXgyh.

J

On 10 May 2018 at 13:07, SK53  wrote:

> I just checked on the Vision of Britain site: the core data is currently
> released under CC-BY-NC. I presume OSM-UK have a waiver from these terms.
>
> Undoubtedly there will be rights of way which have effectively fallen in
> to abeyance. I noted one the other day which was on NPE maps, but no longer
> visible on the ground nor on modern OS maps, nor in the data available from
> rowmaps. Broadly speaking such paths fall outside the ambit of OSM, but
> finding such things is very valuable.
>
> Note that we have other sources as well. As a quick experiment I spent 15
> minutes quickly tracing paths marked on NPE maps for SE Notts and managed
> just over 200 using JOSM. This is of course what I should have done many
> years ago rather than adding them to OSM (hindsight is a wonderful thing).
> The geometry wont be very good, but can be refined using the 1:25 OOC maps.
> Such data can be more useful than the raw names from GB1900, but could be
> used in conjunction. Furthermore with suitable tagging this can be added to
> OHM (I would suggest start_date=1900-01-01 with end_date=1950-12-31 unless
> one knows path is still in use) which makes it a tad easier for sharing
> (although OHM overpass instance is not working atm).
>
> A couple of other things to note regarding the GB1900 data:
>
>
>- Many current footpaths will be marked as Bridle Roads (B.R.). It
>would be useful to add these names to the available data.
>- footpaths and bridle roads often fall well short of their current
>entry points because the current right of way will have followed farm
>tracks and service roads, which in many cases have disappeared.
>
> Returning to use of rowmaps I have a recent geojson file of missing paths
> in the North Midlands (Staffs, Derbys, Notts, Leics & Rutland) up on
> github: https://github.com/SK53/osm-prow-stats. I intend to add other
> areas as time permits. Unfortunately I've never got my comparison process
> to work on PostGIS so I still use QGIS which is a little unwieldy for
> automation. I process rowmaps data into a fairly standard form in PostGIS
> before making the comparisons. This is a heat
> map of missing footpaths in the East Midlands area as of Autumn 2017, I
> compare length of missing paths with total length in a tetrad (2km grid
> square). It readily shows hotspots of missing paths. This was done to
> identify suitable places for our 2018 New Year footpath mapping. The
> National Forest area in SE Derbyshire still has a lot of outstanding
> mapping to do: it's not too bad as walking country either.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2018 at 11:34, Nick Whitelegg 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I might be potentially interested in developing something with this data,
>> partly because I already run a site (freemap) which shows OSM maps for
>> walkers and stores them in a PostGIS database - so it should be an easy
>> process to filter out the data to find those points which are not close to
>> an OSM highway. It would also be easy for me to adapt my existing code to
>> visualise these "FP" points. Presumably they are just points with no
>> indication of direction of the path? An "FP" label presumably has
>> orientation so something could possibly be deduced about its course at that
>> point if orientation was available too.
>>
>>
>> I also already visualise the data so visualising the missing ROWs would
>> be easily done too.
>>
>>
>> It would be nice to develop features to find nearby locations where there
>> are lots of these missing paths, e.g. if I am in Southampton, find the
>> nearest village with 10, 20 (or whatever) missing paths within a 5-mile
>> radius.
>>
>>
>> Would be nice to have an app too so you can find these footpaths while
>> you're actually out.
>>
>>
>>
>> So potentially interested in this, yes. I don't want to commit 100% but
>> would be nice to have the data.
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Richard Fairhurst 
>> *Sent:* 10 May 2018 09:07:49
>> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

[Dave F]

Hi

On 10/05/2018 00:16, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi Dave,

Two elements:

- This is GB wide. Prowmaps has a lot now but I think so areas are 
still missing.


True, but there are probably more recent OoC data than c.1900 for the 
few LAs which are missing from PROWMaps.


- Not all footpaths are registered and with a 2026 deadline the race 
is now on to register old footpaths before they are lost forever.


Good, but I see that as a project external to OSM. OSM can only contain 
current PROWs. I'm a little concerned historical "long gone" paths will 
be added.


DaveF.



Thanks,
*Rob*


On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 23:37, Dave F > wrote:


Hi

I'm probably missing something. As we have current data on
prowmaps.co.uk , will using such old data
have any value/accuracy?

DaveF.

On 09/05/2018 21:13, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi

Just posted a "challenge" to Loomio for anyone who is interested.
It's a bit beyond me so thought I'd post it here.

Basically we have point data of historic footpaths (some 300k
points) and I think it would be amazing to compare this to OSM to
see if we can find more footpaths to map. Obviously some will be
long gone due to 100 years of urban sprawl, but I'm hopeful we
can still find some missing paths.

https://www.loomio.org/d/pviAOkGR/challenge-footpaths

Thanks,
*Rob*


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Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

[SK53]

Quick correction, as I uploaded heat map to wrong Flickr account. This is
the proper link: https://flic.kr/p/JSXgyh.

J

On 10 May 2018 at 13:07, SK53  wrote:

> I just checked on the Vision of Britain site: the core data is currently
> released under CC-BY-NC. I presume OSM-UK have a waiver from these terms.
>
> Undoubtedly there will be rights of way which have effectively fallen in
> to abeyance. I noted one the other day which was on NPE maps, but no longer
> visible on the ground nor on modern OS maps, nor in the data available from
> rowmaps. Broadly speaking such paths fall outside the ambit of OSM, but
> finding such things is very valuable.
>
> Note that we have other sources as well. As a quick experiment I spent 15
> minutes quickly tracing paths marked on NPE maps for SE Notts and managed
> just over 200 using JOSM. This is of course what I should have done many
> years ago rather than adding them to OSM (hindsight is a wonderful thing).
> The geometry wont be very good, but can be refined using the 1:25 OOC maps.
> Such data can be more useful than the raw names from GB1900, but could be
> used in conjunction. Furthermore with suitable tagging this can be added to
> OHM (I would suggest start_date=1900-01-01 with end_date=1950-12-31 unless
> one knows path is still in use) which makes it a tad easier for sharing
> (although OHM overpass instance is not working atm).
>
> A couple of other things to note regarding the GB1900 data:
>
>
>- Many current footpaths will be marked as Bridle Roads (B.R.). It
>would be useful to add these names to the available data.
>- footpaths and bridle roads often fall well short of their current
>entry points because the current right of way will have followed farm
>tracks and service roads, which in many cases have disappeared.
>
> Returning to use of rowmaps I have a recent geojson file of missing paths
> in the North Midlands (Staffs, Derbys, Notts, Leics & Rutland) up on
> github: https://github.com/SK53/osm-prow-stats. I intend to add other
> areas as time permits. Unfortunately I've never got my comparison process
> to work on PostGIS so I still use QGIS which is a little unwieldy for
> automation. I process rowmaps data into a fairly standard form in PostGIS
> before making the comparisons. This is a heat
> map of missing footpaths in the East Midlands area as of Autumn 2017, I
> compare length of missing paths with total length in a tetrad (2km grid
> square). It readily shows hotspots of missing paths. This was done to
> identify suitable places for our 2018 New Year footpath mapping. The
> National Forest area in SE Derbyshire still has a lot of outstanding
> mapping to do: it's not too bad as walking country either.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2018 at 11:34, Nick Whitelegg 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I might be potentially interested in developing something with this data,
>> partly because I already run a site (freemap) which shows OSM maps for
>> walkers and stores them in a PostGIS database - so it should be an easy
>> process to filter out the data to find those points which are not close to
>> an OSM highway. It would also be easy for me to adapt my existing code to
>> visualise these "FP" points. Presumably they are just points with no
>> indication of direction of the path? An "FP" label presumably has
>> orientation so something could possibly be deduced about its course at that
>> point if orientation was available too.
>>
>>
>> I also already visualise the data so visualising the missing ROWs would
>> be easily done too.
>>
>>
>> It would be nice to develop features to find nearby locations where there
>> are lots of these missing paths, e.g. if I am in Southampton, find the
>> nearest village with 10, 20 (or whatever) missing paths within a 5-mile
>> radius.
>>
>>
>> Would be nice to have an app too so you can find these footpaths while
>> you're actually out.
>>
>>
>>
>> So potentially interested in this, yes. I don't want to commit 100% but
>> would be nice to have the data.
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Richard Fairhurst 
>> *Sent:* 10 May 2018 09:07:49
>> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones
>>
>> Rob Nickerson wrote:
>> > Basically we have point data of historic footpaths (some 300k points)
>> and
>> > I think it would be amazing to compare this to OSM to see if we can
>> find
>> > more footpaths to map.
>>
>> Very cool. Could you post the data somewhere?
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Great-Britain-f5372682.html
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

[SK53]

I just checked on the Vision of Britain site: the core data is currently
released under CC-BY-NC. I presume OSM-UK have a waiver from these terms.

Undoubtedly there will be rights of way which have effectively fallen in to
abeyance. I noted one the other day which was on NPE maps, but no longer
visible on the ground nor on modern OS maps, nor in the data available from
rowmaps. Broadly speaking such paths fall outside the ambit of OSM, but
finding such things is very valuable.

Note that we have other sources as well. As a quick experiment I spent 15
minutes quickly tracing paths marked on NPE maps for SE Notts and managed
just over 200 using JOSM. This is of course what I should have done many
years ago rather than adding them to OSM (hindsight is a wonderful thing).
The geometry wont be very good, but can be refined using the 1:25 OOC maps.
Such data can be more useful than the raw names from GB1900, but could be
used in conjunction. Furthermore with suitable tagging this can be added to
OHM (I would suggest start_date=1900-01-01 with end_date=1950-12-31 unless
one knows path is still in use) which makes it a tad easier for sharing
(although OHM overpass instance is not working atm).

A couple of other things to note regarding the GB1900 data:


   - Many current footpaths will be marked as Bridle Roads (B.R.). It would
   be useful to add these names to the available data.
   - footpaths and bridle roads often fall well short of their current
   entry points because the current right of way will have followed farm
   tracks and service roads, which in many cases have disappeared.

Returning to use of rowmaps I have a recent geojson file of missing paths
in the North Midlands (Staffs, Derbys, Notts, Leics & Rutland) up on
github: https://github.com/SK53/osm-prow-stats. I intend to add other areas
as time permits. Unfortunately I've never got my comparison process to work
on PostGIS so I still use QGIS which is a little unwieldy for automation. I
process rowmaps data into a fairly standard form in PostGIS before making
the comparisons. This is a heat map of missing
footpaths in the East Midlands area as of Autumn 2017, I compare length of
missing paths with total length in a tetrad (2km grid square). It readily
shows hotspots of missing paths. This was done to identify suitable places
for our 2018 New Year footpath mapping. The National Forest area in SE
Derbyshire still has a lot of outstanding mapping to do: it's not too bad
as walking country either.

Jerry




On 10 May 2018 at 11:34, Nick Whitelegg  wrote:

>
> I might be potentially interested in developing something with this data,
> partly because I already run a site (freemap) which shows OSM maps for
> walkers and stores them in a PostGIS database - so it should be an easy
> process to filter out the data to find those points which are not close to
> an OSM highway. It would also be easy for me to adapt my existing code to
> visualise these "FP" points. Presumably they are just points with no
> indication of direction of the path? An "FP" label presumably has
> orientation so something could possibly be deduced about its course at that
> point if orientation was available too.
>
>
> I also already visualise the data so visualising the missing ROWs would be
> easily done too.
>
>
> It would be nice to develop features to find nearby locations where there
> are lots of these missing paths, e.g. if I am in Southampton, find the
> nearest village with 10, 20 (or whatever) missing paths within a 5-mile
> radius.
>
>
> Would be nice to have an app too so you can find these footpaths while
> you're actually out.
>
>
>
> So potentially interested in this, yes. I don't want to commit 100% but
> would be nice to have the data.
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Richard Fairhurst 
> *Sent:* 10 May 2018 09:07:49
> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones
>
> Rob Nickerson wrote:
> > Basically we have point data of historic footpaths (some 300k points)
> and
> > I think it would be amazing to compare this to OSM to see if we can find
> > more footpaths to map.
>
> Very cool. Could you post the data somewhere?
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Great-Britain-f5372682.html
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

[Nick Whitelegg]

I might be potentially interested in developing something with this data, 
partly because I already run a site (freemap) which shows OSM maps for walkers 
and stores them in a PostGIS database - so it should be an easy process to 
filter out the data to find those points which are not close to an OSM highway. 
It would also be easy for me to adapt my existing code to visualise these "FP" 
points. Presumably they are just points with no indication of direction of the 
path? An "FP" label presumably has orientation so something could possibly be 
deduced about its course at that point if orientation was available too.


I also already visualise the data so visualising the missing ROWs would be 
easily done too.


It would be nice to develop features to find nearby locations where there are 
lots of these missing paths, e.g. if I am in Southampton, find the nearest 
village with 10, 20 (or whatever) missing paths within a 5-mile radius.


Would be nice to have an app too so you can find these footpaths while you're 
actually out.



So potentially interested in this, yes. I don't want to commit 100% but would 
be nice to have the data.


Nick




From: Richard Fairhurst 
Sent: 10 May 2018 09:07:49
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Basically we have point data of historic footpaths (some 300k points) and
> I think it would be amazing to compare this to OSM to see if we can find
> more footpaths to map.

Very cool. Could you post the data somewhere?

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Footpaths - search for the missing ones

[Richard Fairhurst]

Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Basically we have point data of historic footpaths (some 300k points) and 
> I think it would be amazing to compare this to OSM to see if we can find 
> more footpaths to map.

Very cool. Could you post the data somewhere?

Richard



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