Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Andrzej]

Hi Colin,

Dependent and doubly dependent localities are technical terms and without 
having access to PAF most mappers wouldn't know which one to use. And if they 
did, that could be considered a copyright infringement. Also, it just doesn't 
sound right. No one asks "which dependent locality do you live in". I agree it 
matches PAF very well, though.

I agree towns and villages are less precise but since we already have them as 
admin levels that would be the easiest and most intuitive solution. We already 
have addr:suburb and addr:hamlet so that would be a natural extension, and one 
which is already in use in the UK. 

I agree with you on addr:parentstreet. The issue here is that house numbers and 
names are associated with either addr:street or addr:place. So if we were to 
introduce addr:substreet or addr:campus that convention would have to be 
changed. For this reason I suggested using addr:place as a dependent 
thoroughfare.This would only require allowing both street and place to be 
defined together.

Best regards,
Andrzej 

On 28 January 2019 07:05:40 GMT+08:00, Colin Smale  
wrote:
>Hi Andrezej,
>
>I would oppose addr:village for the Dependent Locality as it invites
>incorrect usage. There is no reason to overload an existing tag with a
>different meaning to its current usage. In the UK, a village is not
>simply a neat subdivision of a town. I think addr:locality and
>addr:sublocality would be better, as this would (correctly) imply a
>possibly fuzzy boundary which possibly crosses formal admin boundaries.
>
>
>Regarding streets/thoroughfares, the main thoroughfare is addr:street -
>that is clear and established usage. We are looking for a solution for
>a
>"substreet" and moving the main thoroughfare up to "addr:parentstreet"
>to make room for the dependent thoroughfare in "addr:street" feels
>wrong
>as it gives addr:street different semantics under some conditions. Note
>also that the word "thoroughfare" has probably been carefully chosen to
>allow application to things other than simple streets with adresses
>neatly on each side. I would also instinctively expect a campus to be
>more of a locality (subarea of a Town) than a super-street. Maybe
>someone with access to PAF data can see what data is in what fields for
>some address on the CSP. 
>
>It wouldn't surprise me if subbuildings were used for "Unit 1",
>"Building A" etc. That doesn't sound/feel at all unreasonable. 
>
>On 2019-01-27 23:27, Andrzej wrote:
>
>> Hi Colin,
>> 
>> This is broadly in line with Robert's proposals. However, it raises
>questions about:
>> 
>> 1. tagging "dependent localities" - they can be towns or villages.
>Are you happy with addr:town, addr:village for this purpose? Reaching
>consensus on that would be a major step forward. 
>> 
>> 2. Tagging "dependent throughfares". I think they could be used to
>tag "building name, Cambridge Science Park, Milton Road, Cambridge".
>This could be addr:place except in OSM addr:place should not be
>combined with addr:street. Or, like in Robert's proposal,
>addr:street+addr:parentstreet. Except that CSP is a campus, not a
>street. 
>> 
>> 3. Tagging subbuildings. Addr:unit is available but is fairly limited
>(unit names?) and vague. 
>> 
>> 4. PO Box - I haven't thought about it. Is that something that we
>would include at all in a geographical database? Perhaps if it is
>associated with a business that has a known location but uses PO Box as
>its address? 
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> Andrzej 
>> 
>> On 28 January 2019 05:21:36 GMT+08:00, Colin Smale
> wrote: 
>> 
>> Assuming the post code is seen in OSM as a way of addressing post (as
>opposed to a geographic subdivision or an indication of location) then
>I suggest following Royal Mail's address structure, which can be seen
>in the description of the Postcode Address File on Wikipedia [1]. If we
>cannot map a full-format address onto OSM tags, we need a description
>of how to deal with this (i.e. which bits to leave out or combine). 
>> 
>> I have taken the table from wikipedia and added a column for the OSM
>tags where known. Most of these fields are actually optional, or not
>always present, depending on the exact address in question. 
>> 
>> How do we fill in the blanks? 
>> 
>> ELEMENT
>> FIELD NAME
>> DESCRIPTION
>> MAX LENGTH
>> OSM
>> 
>> Organisation
>> Organisation Name
>> 
>> 60
>> n/a
>> 
>> Department Name
>> 
>> 60
>> n/a
>> 
>> Premises
>> Sub Building Name
>> 
>> 30
>> 
>> Building Name
>> 
>> 50
>> addr:housename
>> 
>> Building Number
>> 
>> 4
>> addr:housenumber
>> 
>> Thoroughfare
>> Dependent Thoroughfare Name
>> 
>> 60
>> 
>> Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor
>> 
>> 20
>> 
>> Thoroughfare Name
>> Street
>> 60
>> addr:street
>> 
>> Thoroughfare Descriptor
>> 
>> 20
>> 
>> Locality
>> Double Dependent Locality
>> Small villages
>> 35
>> 
>> Dependent Locality
>> 
>> 35
>> 
>> Post town
>> 
>> 30
>> addr:city
>> 
>> Postcode
>> Postcode
>> 
>> 7
>> addr:postcode
>> 
>> PO Box
>> PO Box
>> 
>> 6
>> 
>> [1] 

Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Andrzej]

Perhaps OSM UK could step in and endorse address tagging practices once a 
consensus is reached? In the end it does not matter what tag names we use as 
long as the whole scheme is consistent and rich enough to describe common use 
cases. 

So far, I see addr:city=posttown is a popular solution, which I am happy about. 
But it would have to go with something like addr:town/village to denote 
dependent localities. Otherwise we won't be able to convince mappers from 
smaller towns to follow this convention. 

Another idea, if we allowed addr:place and addr:street to be used together, 
addr:place could be used as "dependent thoroughfare" with no(?) other changes. 

Best wishes, 
Andrzej 



On 28 January 2019 06:48:11 GMT+08:00, Colin Smale  
wrote:
>David, thanks for offering some updates. 
>
>By the way, I am not asking questions because I personally want the
>answers - I am fully aware of how these things work. And because of
>that, and because OSM tries to model reality, I believe we need some
>kind of anchor-point for our thinking in order to converge on a proper
>solution. In many countries postcodes/zip codes are associated with
>geographic areas; the UK, as frequently happens, uses a different
>paradigm. We need a clear statement of the intention for the addresses
>in OSM, and my belief is that they represent postal addresses as per
>the
>PAF. PO Box numbers are not applicable to OSM, as they cannot be
>related
>to a location useful in OSM. The discussion is just about Dependent
>Locaiity, Double Dependent Locality, and Dependent Thoroughfare. If we
>can define what OSM tag should be used for these three fields, we have
>a
>model which is sufficient for all UK addresses. 
>
>Of course, it is an option to decide to NOT represent this level of
>detail in OSM. In that case, expect mappers to make up their own
>solutions, and this discussion to resurface every few months. 
>
>Next iteration: 
>
>   ELEMENT
>   FIELD NAME
>   DESCRIPTION
>   MAX LENGTH
>   OSM
>
>   Organisation
>   Organisation Name
>
>   60
>   n/a
>
>   Department Name
>
>   60
>   n/a
>
>   Premises
>   Sub Building Name
>
>   30
>   addr:unit
>
>   Building Name
>
>   50
>   addr:housename
>
>   Building Number
>
>   4
>   addr:housenumber
>
>   Thoroughfare
>   Dependent Thoroughfare Name
>
>   60
>
>   Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor
>
>   20
>
>   Thoroughfare Name
>   Street
>   60
>   addr:street
>
>   Thoroughfare Descriptor
>
>   20
>   addr:street
>
>   Locality
>   Double Dependent Locality
>   Small villages
>   35
>
>   Dependent Locality
>
>   35
>
>   Post town
>
>   30
>   addr:city
>
>   Postcode
>   Postcode
>
>   7
>   addr:postcode
>
>   PO Box
>   PO Box
>
>   6
>n/a
>
>On 2019-01-27 23:17, David Woolley wrote:
>
>> On 27/01/2019 21:21, Colin Smale wrote: 
>> 
>>> Organisation Organisation Name 60 n/a
>>> Department Name 60 n/a
>>> Premises Sub Building Name 30
>> 
>> addr:unit
>> 
>>> Building Name 50 addr:housename
>>> Building Number 4 addr:housenumber
>>> Thoroughfare Dependent Thoroughfare Name 60
>> 
>> This is the one that actually normally causes questions.  It is quite
>common to have named terraces, and to have runs of maisonettes numbered
>within a name.
>> 
>>> Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor 20 Thoroughfare Name
>Street 60 addr:street
>>> Thoroughfare Descriptor 20 Locality Double Dependent
>Locality Small villages 35 Dependent Locality 35 Post
>town 30 addr:city
>> 
>> Firstly, addr in OSM is generally postal, not geographical.  As
>indicated elsewhere containment (or is_in) define the geographical
>place.
>> 
>> Secondly, in practice the only parts of the address you need are the
>detailed destination point code and the post code.  However, I
>discovered that the postie on the beat also needs the street name to
>avoid having to look it up from the postcode.
>> 
>> The bar codes for Walksort only contain the postcode and two
>character detailed destination.  (Is there a potential project there,
>to capture these.  Everyone who has received utility bills will have
>their own code, but they are only available to paying customers, as far
>as the sender is concerned.)
>> 
>>> Postcode Postcode 7 addr:postcode
>>> PO Box PO Box 6
>> 
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Colin Smale]

Hi Andrezej,

I would oppose addr:village for the Dependent Locality as it invites
incorrect usage. There is no reason to overload an existing tag with a
different meaning to its current usage. In the UK, a village is not
simply a neat subdivision of a town. I think addr:locality and
addr:sublocality would be better, as this would (correctly) imply a
possibly fuzzy boundary which possibly crosses formal admin boundaries. 

Regarding streets/thoroughfares, the main thoroughfare is addr:street -
that is clear and established usage. We are looking for a solution for a
"substreet" and moving the main thoroughfare up to "addr:parentstreet"
to make room for the dependent thoroughfare in "addr:street" feels wrong
as it gives addr:street different semantics under some conditions. Note
also that the word "thoroughfare" has probably been carefully chosen to
allow application to things other than simple streets with adresses
neatly on each side. I would also instinctively expect a campus to be
more of a locality (subarea of a Town) than a super-street. Maybe
someone with access to PAF data can see what data is in what fields for
some address on the CSP. 

It wouldn't surprise me if subbuildings were used for "Unit 1",
"Building A" etc. That doesn't sound/feel at all unreasonable. 

On 2019-01-27 23:27, Andrzej wrote:

> Hi Colin,
> 
> This is broadly in line with Robert's proposals. However, it raises questions 
> about:
> 
> 1. tagging "dependent localities" - they can be towns or villages. Are you 
> happy with addr:town, addr:village for this purpose? Reaching consensus on 
> that would be a major step forward. 
> 
> 2. Tagging "dependent throughfares". I think they could be used to tag 
> "building name, Cambridge Science Park, Milton Road, Cambridge". This could 
> be addr:place except in OSM addr:place should not be combined with 
> addr:street. Or, like in Robert's proposal, addr:street+addr:parentstreet. 
> Except that CSP is a campus, not a street. 
> 
> 3. Tagging subbuildings. Addr:unit is available but is fairly limited (unit 
> names?) and vague. 
> 
> 4. PO Box - I haven't thought about it. Is that something that we would 
> include at all in a geographical database? Perhaps if it is associated with a 
> business that has a known location but uses PO Box as its address? 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Andrzej 
> 
> On 28 January 2019 05:21:36 GMT+08:00, Colin Smale  
> wrote: 
> 
> Assuming the post code is seen in OSM as a way of addressing post (as opposed 
> to a geographic subdivision or an indication of location) then I suggest 
> following Royal Mail's address structure, which can be seen in the 
> description of the Postcode Address File on Wikipedia [1]. If we cannot map a 
> full-format address onto OSM tags, we need a description of how to deal with 
> this (i.e. which bits to leave out or combine). 
> 
> I have taken the table from wikipedia and added a column for the OSM tags 
> where known. Most of these fields are actually optional, or not always 
> present, depending on the exact address in question. 
> 
> How do we fill in the blanks? 
> 
> ELEMENT
> FIELD NAME
> DESCRIPTION
> MAX LENGTH
> OSM
> 
> Organisation
> Organisation Name
> 
> 60
> n/a
> 
> Department Name
> 
> 60
> n/a
> 
> Premises
> Sub Building Name
> 
> 30
> 
> Building Name
> 
> 50
> addr:housename
> 
> Building Number
> 
> 4
> addr:housenumber
> 
> Thoroughfare
> Dependent Thoroughfare Name
> 
> 60
> 
> Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor
> 
> 20
> 
> Thoroughfare Name
> Street
> 60
> addr:street
> 
> Thoroughfare Descriptor
> 
> 20
> 
> Locality
> Double Dependent Locality
> Small villages
> 35
> 
> Dependent Locality
> 
> 35
> 
> Post town
> 
> 30
> addr:city
> 
> Postcode
> Postcode
> 
> 7
> addr:postcode
> 
> PO Box
> PO Box
> 
> 6
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcode_Address_File 
> 
> On 2019-01-27 21:40, Andrzej wrote: 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When working on post codes in East Anglia I realised the current address 
> tagging scheme is insufficient for even fairly basic scenarios. I have 
> already discussed the issues with some of the most experienced mappers and 
> like to bring these issues to your attention. Robert has summarised his ideas 
> in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping
> 
> The bottom line is, I would like to be tag commonly used addresses without 
> losing information and without resorting to addr:full. 
> 
> Issues:
> 1. Post towns (most pressing one because there is a lot of confusion around 
> it). The UK is fairly unique in that not every town is a post town. This 
> makes it impossible to tag e.g. Station Road, Histon, Cambridge CB24 9LF. 
> Wiki recommends addr:city to be used for tagging post towns (Cambridge) but 
> then how do we tag Histon? 
> - Robert recommends sticking to the current meaning of addr:city and using 
> addr:town and addr:village for town and village names, which, although not in 
> wiki, are already being used in the UK. I like this solution because it 

Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Andrzej]

On 28 January 2019 06:17:04 GMT+08:00, David Woolley 
 wrote:
>On 27/01/2019 21:21, Colin Smale wrote:
>> Organisation Organisation Name   60  n/a
>> Department Name  60  n/a
>> Premises Sub Building Name   30  
>
>addr:unit

What about the Sub Building Name? 

>> Building Name50  addr:housename
>> Building Number  4   addr:housenumber
>> Thoroughfare Dependent Thoroughfare Name 60  
>
>This is the one that actually normally causes questions.  It is quite 
>common to have named terraces, and to have runs of maisonettes numbered
>within a name.

Good point.I would also add campuses in this category. Although I am not 100% 
sure if that's how they are classified in PAF. 

>> Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor20  
>> Thoroughfare NameStreet  60  addr:street
>> Thoroughfare Descriptor  20  
>> Locality Double Dependent Locality   Small villages  35  
>> Dependent Locality   35  
>> Post town30  addr:city
>
>Firstly, addr in OSM is generally postal, not geographical.  As 
>indicated elsewhere containment (or is_in) define the geographical
>place. 

True, but full address would still include extra information. We can infer 
addr:country and addr:county from admin areas but everything else should be 
_possible_ to tag. 

>Secondly, in practice the only parts of the address you need are the 
>detailed destination point code and the post code.  However, I 
>discovered that the postie on the beat also needs the street name to 
>avoid having to look it up from the postcode.

It should still be possible to encode a typical full address with tags. 
Sometimes people will want extract the full address from OSM, sometimes they 
will want to search for a part of it. Even if someone is searching for a house 
number and a postcode alone it is useful to see if e.g. a street name of the 
result matches expectations. 

Best wishes,
Andrzej

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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Colin Smale]

David, thanks for offering some updates. 

By the way, I am not asking questions because I personally want the
answers - I am fully aware of how these things work. And because of
that, and because OSM tries to model reality, I believe we need some
kind of anchor-point for our thinking in order to converge on a proper
solution. In many countries postcodes/zip codes are associated with
geographic areas; the UK, as frequently happens, uses a different
paradigm. We need a clear statement of the intention for the addresses
in OSM, and my belief is that they represent postal addresses as per the
PAF. PO Box numbers are not applicable to OSM, as they cannot be related
to a location useful in OSM. The discussion is just about Dependent
Locaiity, Double Dependent Locality, and Dependent Thoroughfare. If we
can define what OSM tag should be used for these three fields, we have a
model which is sufficient for all UK addresses. 

Of course, it is an option to decide to NOT represent this level of
detail in OSM. In that case, expect mappers to make up their own
solutions, and this discussion to resurface every few months. 

Next iteration: 

ELEMENT
FIELD NAME
DESCRIPTION
MAX LENGTH
OSM

Organisation
Organisation Name

60
n/a

Department Name

60
n/a

Premises
Sub Building Name

30
addr:unit

Building Name

50
addr:housename

Building Number

4
addr:housenumber

Thoroughfare
Dependent Thoroughfare Name

60

Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor

20

Thoroughfare Name
Street
60
addr:street

Thoroughfare Descriptor

20
addr:street

Locality
Double Dependent Locality
Small villages
35

Dependent Locality

35

Post town

30
addr:city

Postcode
Postcode

7
addr:postcode

PO Box
PO Box

6
 n/a

On 2019-01-27 23:17, David Woolley wrote:

> On 27/01/2019 21:21, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
>> Organisation Organisation Name 60 n/a
>> Department Name 60 n/a
>> Premises Sub Building Name 30
> 
> addr:unit
> 
>> Building Name 50 addr:housename
>> Building Number 4 addr:housenumber
>> Thoroughfare Dependent Thoroughfare Name 60
> 
> This is the one that actually normally causes questions.  It is quite common 
> to have named terraces, and to have runs of maisonettes numbered within a 
> name.
> 
>> Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor 20 Thoroughfare Name Street
>>  60 addr:street
>> Thoroughfare Descriptor 20 Locality Double Dependent Locality
>>  Small villages 35 Dependent Locality 35 Post town 30
>>  addr:city
> 
> Firstly, addr in OSM is generally postal, not geographical.  As indicated 
> elsewhere containment (or is_in) define the geographical place.
> 
> Secondly, in practice the only parts of the address you need are the detailed 
> destination point code and the post code.  However, I discovered that the 
> postie on the beat also needs the street name to avoid having to look it up 
> from the postcode.
> 
> The bar codes for Walksort only contain the postcode and two character 
> detailed destination.  (Is there a potential project there, to capture these. 
>  Everyone who has received utility bills will have their own code, but they 
> are only available to paying customers, as far as the sender is concerned.)
> 
>> Postcode Postcode 7 addr:postcode
>> PO Box PO Box 6
> 
> PO Box is not really relevant.  In most cases it is attached to a post office 
> building. 
> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Andrzej]

At low level (commercial areas, academic campuses, hospitals) that's not really 
the case. They are not as formalised as admin areas.

Best wishes,
Andrzej 

On 28 January 2019 05:46:23 GMT+08:00, Gareth L  wrote:
>I’d hope these would inherit from whatever the address is enclosed in.
>
>On 27 Jan 2019, at 21:22, Colin Smale
>mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>
>
>Assuming the post code is seen in OSM as a way of addressing post (as
>opposed to a geographic subdivision or an indication of location) then
>I suggest following Royal Mail's address structure, which can be seen
>in the description of the Postcode Address File on Wikipedia [1]. If we
>cannot map a full-format address onto OSM tags, we need a description
>of how to deal with this (i.e. which bits to leave out or combine).
>
>I have taken the table from wikipedia and added a column for the OSM
>tags where known. Most of these fields are actually optional, or not
>always present, depending on the exact address in question.
>
>How do we fill in the blanks?
>
>
>Element Field name  Description Max length  OSM
>OrganisationOrganisation Name   60  n/a
>Department Name 60  n/a
>PremisesSub Building Name   30
>Building Name   50  addr:housename
>Building Number 4   addr:housenumber
>ThoroughfareDependent Thoroughfare Name 60
>Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor   20
>Thoroughfare Name   Street  60  addr:street
>Thoroughfare Descriptor 20
>LocalityDouble Dependent Locality   Small villages  35
>Dependent Locality  35
>Post town   30  addr:city
>PostcodePostcode7   addr:postcode
>PO Box  PO Box  6
>
>
>
>[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcode_Address_File
>
>
>
>
>On 2019-01-27 21:40, Andrzej wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>When working on post codes in East Anglia I realised the current
>address tagging scheme is insufficient for even fairly basic scenarios.
>I have already discussed the issues with some of the most experienced
>mappers and like to bring these issues to your attention. Robert has
>summarised his ideas in
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping
>
>The bottom line is, I would like to be tag commonly used addresses
>without losing information and without resorting to addr:full.
>
>Issues:
>1. Post towns (most pressing one because there is a lot of confusion
>around it). The UK is fairly unique in that not every town is a post
>town. This makes it impossible to tag e.g. Station Road, Histon,
>Cambridge CB24 9LF.
>Wiki recommends addr:city to be used for tagging post towns (Cambridge)
>but then how do we tag Histon?
>- Robert recommends sticking to the current meaning of addr:city and
>using addr:town and addr:village for town and village names, which,
>although not in wiki, are already being used in the UK. I like this
>solution because it is very explicit in what each addr: key means and
>it doesn't redefine addr:city.
>- SK53 prefers using addr:city for everything (towns, even villages)
>and either not tagging post towns (they can be seen as a an internal
>detail of a closed Royal Mail database) or using a new tag for it, like
>addr:post_town. It is a simple solution, results in Histon being called
>Histon and not Cambridge (without introducing new tags for town and
>village names) and is commonly used. It is also a bit confusing (what
>exactly is a city?) and I think we we should at least support tagging
>post towns.
>
>Key questions:
>a) addr:city for post towns or towns and villages?
>b) how to rag remaining information (respectively, towns and villages
>or post towns,)
>
>2. Tagging addresses within campuses, business parks etc. There is
>addr:place but it is supposed to be used instead of addr:street. Again,
>Robert has a fairly decent proposal for that using addr:place or
>addr:locality and addr:parentstreet. Please comment.
>
>2a. should buildings in campuses be tagged with
>addr:buildingnumber/name or addr:unit? I would prefer
>buildingname/number (as they are often subdivided) but these seem to be
>associated with addr:street.
>
>3. Similar to (2) but for buildings. Tagging buildings that have e.g. a
>single name but multiple house numbers?
>
>Best regards,
>ndrw6
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Andrzej]

Hi Colin,

This is broadly in line with Robert's proposals. However, it raises questions 
about:

1. tagging "dependent localities" - they can be towns or villages. Are you 
happy with addr:town, addr:village for this purpose? Reaching consensus on that 
would be a major step forward. 

2. Tagging "dependent throughfares". I think they could be used to tag 
"building name, Cambridge Science Park, Milton Road, Cambridge". This could be 
addr:place except in OSM addr:place should not be combined with addr:street. 
Or, like in Robert's proposal, addr:street+addr:parentstreet. Except that CSP 
is a campus, not a street. 

3. Tagging subbuildings. Addr:unit is available but is fairly limited (unit 
names?) and vague. 

4. PO Box - I haven't thought about it. Is that something that we would include 
at all in a geographical database? Perhaps if it is associated with a business 
that has a known location but uses PO Box as its address? 

Best wishes,
Andrzej 

On 28 January 2019 05:21:36 GMT+08:00, Colin Smale  
wrote:
>Assuming the post code is seen in OSM as a way of addressing post (as
>opposed to a geographic subdivision or an indication of location) then
>I
>suggest following Royal Mail's address structure, which can be seen in
>the description of the Postcode Address File on Wikipedia [1]. If we
>cannot map a full-format address onto OSM tags, we need a description
>of
>how to deal with this (i.e. which bits to leave out or combine). 
>
>I have taken the table from wikipedia and added a column for the OSM
>tags where known. Most of these fields are actually optional, or not
>always present, depending on the exact address in question. 
>
>How do we fill in the blanks? 
>
>   ELEMENT
>   FIELD NAME
>   DESCRIPTION
>   MAX LENGTH
>   OSM
>
>   Organisation
>   Organisation Name
>
>   60
>   n/a
>
>   Department Name
>
>   60
>   n/a
>
>   Premises
>   Sub Building Name
>
>   30
>
>   Building Name
>
>   50
>   addr:housename
>
>   Building Number
>
>   4
>   addr:housenumber
>
>   Thoroughfare
>   Dependent Thoroughfare Name
>
>   60
>
>   Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor
>
>   20
>
>   Thoroughfare Name
>   Street
>   60
>   addr:street
>
>   Thoroughfare Descriptor
>
>   20
>
>   Locality
>   Double Dependent Locality
>   Small villages
>   35
>
>   Dependent Locality
>
>   35
>
>   Post town
>
>   30
>   addr:city
>
>   Postcode
>   Postcode
>
>   7
>   addr:postcode
>
>   PO Box
>   PO Box
>
>   6
>
>[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcode_Address_File 
>
>On 2019-01-27 21:40, Andrzej wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> When working on post codes in East Anglia I realised the current
>address tagging scheme is insufficient for even fairly basic scenarios.
>I have already discussed the issues with some of the most experienced
>mappers and like to bring these issues to your attention. Robert has
>summarised his ideas in
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping
>> 
>> The bottom line is, I would like to be tag commonly used addresses
>without losing information and without resorting to addr:full. 
>> 
>> Issues:
>> 1. Post towns (most pressing one because there is a lot of confusion
>around it). The UK is fairly unique in that not every town is a post
>town. This makes it impossible to tag e.g. Station Road, Histon,
>Cambridge CB24 9LF. 
>> Wiki recommends addr:city to be used for tagging post towns
>(Cambridge) but then how do we tag Histon? 
>> - Robert recommends sticking to the current meaning of addr:city and
>using addr:town and addr:village for town and village names, which,
>although not in wiki, are already being used in the UK. I like this
>solution because it is very explicit in what each addr: key means and
>it doesn't redefine addr:city. 
>> - SK53 prefers using addr:city for everything (towns, even villages)
>and either not tagging post towns (they can be seen as a an internal
>detail of a closed Royal Mail database) or using a new tag for it, like
>addr:post_town. It is a simple solution, results in Histon being called
>Histon and not Cambridge (without introducing new tags for town and
>village names) and is commonly used. It is also a bit confusing (what
>exactly is a city?) and I think we we should at least support tagging
>post towns. 
>> 
>> Key questions:
>> a) addr:city for post towns or towns and villages? 
>> b) how to rag remaining information (respectively, towns and villages
>or post towns,) 
>> 
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[David Woolley]

On 27/01/2019 21:21, Colin Smale wrote:

OrganisationOrganisation Name   60  n/a
Department Name 60  n/a
PremisesSub Building Name   30  


addr:unit


Building Name   50  addr:housename
Building Number 4   addr:housenumber
ThoroughfareDependent Thoroughfare Name 60  


This is the one that actually normally causes questions.  It is quite 
common to have named terraces, and to have runs of maisonettes numbered 
within a name.



Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor   20  
Thoroughfare Name   Street  60  addr:street
Thoroughfare Descriptor 20  
LocalityDouble Dependent Locality   Small villages  35  
Dependent Locality  35  
Post town   30  addr:city


Firstly, addr in OSM is generally postal, not geographical.  As 
indicated elsewhere containment (or is_in) define the geographical place.


Secondly, in practice the only parts of the address you need are the 
detailed destination point code and the post code.  However, I 
discovered that the postie on the beat also needs the street name to 
avoid having to look it up from the postcode.


The bar codes for Walksort only contain the postcode and two character 
detailed destination.  (Is there a potential project there, to capture 
these.  Everyone who has received utility bills will have their own 
code, but they are only available to paying customers, as far as the 
sender is concerned.)



PostcodePostcode7   addr:postcode
PO Box  PO Box  6   


PO Box is not really relevant.  In most cases it is attached to a post 
office building.






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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Gareth L]

I’d hope these would inherit from whatever the address is enclosed in.

On 27 Jan 2019, at 21:22, Colin Smale 
mailto:colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>> wrote:


Assuming the post code is seen in OSM as a way of addressing post (as opposed 
to a geographic subdivision or an indication of location) then I suggest 
following Royal Mail's address structure, which can be seen in the description 
of the Postcode Address File on Wikipedia [1]. If we cannot map a full-format 
address onto OSM tags, we need a description of how to deal with this (i.e. 
which bits to leave out or combine).

I have taken the table from wikipedia and added a column for the OSM tags where 
known. Most of these fields are actually optional, or not always present, 
depending on the exact address in question.

How do we fill in the blanks?


Element Field name  Description Max length  OSM
OrganisationOrganisation Name   60  n/a
Department Name 60  n/a
PremisesSub Building Name   30
Building Name   50  addr:housename
Building Number 4   addr:housenumber
ThoroughfareDependent Thoroughfare Name 60
Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor   20
Thoroughfare Name   Street  60  addr:street
Thoroughfare Descriptor 20
LocalityDouble Dependent Locality   Small villages  35
Dependent Locality  35
Post town   30  addr:city
PostcodePostcode7   addr:postcode
PO Box  PO Box  6



[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcode_Address_File




On 2019-01-27 21:40, Andrzej wrote:

Hi,

When working on post codes in East Anglia I realised the current address 
tagging scheme is insufficient for even fairly basic scenarios. I have already 
discussed the issues with some of the most experienced mappers and like to 
bring these issues to your attention. Robert has summarised his ideas in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping

The bottom line is, I would like to be tag commonly used addresses without 
losing information and without resorting to addr:full.

Issues:
1. Post towns (most pressing one because there is a lot of confusion around 
it). The UK is fairly unique in that not every town is a post town. This makes 
it impossible to tag e.g. Station Road, Histon, Cambridge CB24 9LF.
Wiki recommends addr:city to be used for tagging post towns (Cambridge) but 
then how do we tag Histon?
- Robert recommends sticking to the current meaning of addr:city and using 
addr:town and addr:village for town and village names, which, although not in 
wiki, are already being used in the UK. I like this solution because it is very 
explicit in what each addr: key means and it doesn't redefine addr:city.
- SK53 prefers using addr:city for everything (towns, even villages) and either 
not tagging post towns (they can be seen as a an internal detail of a closed 
Royal Mail database) or using a new tag for it, like addr:post_town. It is a 
simple solution, results in Histon being called Histon and not Cambridge 
(without introducing new tags for town and village names) and is commonly used. 
It is also a bit confusing (what exactly is a city?) and I think we we should 
at least support tagging post towns.

Key questions:
a) addr:city for post towns or towns and villages?
b) how to rag remaining information (respectively, towns and villages or post 
towns,)

2. Tagging addresses within campuses, business parks etc. There is addr:place 
but it is supposed to be used instead of addr:street. Again, Robert has a 
fairly decent proposal for that using addr:place or addr:locality and 
addr:parentstreet. Please comment.

2a. should buildings in campuses be tagged with addr:buildingnumber/name or 
addr:unit? I would prefer buildingname/number (as they are often subdivided) 
but these seem to be associated with addr:street.

3. Similar to (2) but for buildings. Tagging buildings that have e.g. a single 
name but multiple house numbers?

Best regards,
ndrw6


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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Colin Smale]

Assuming the post code is seen in OSM as a way of addressing post (as
opposed to a geographic subdivision or an indication of location) then I
suggest following Royal Mail's address structure, which can be seen in
the description of the Postcode Address File on Wikipedia [1]. If we
cannot map a full-format address onto OSM tags, we need a description of
how to deal with this (i.e. which bits to leave out or combine). 

I have taken the table from wikipedia and added a column for the OSM
tags where known. Most of these fields are actually optional, or not
always present, depending on the exact address in question. 

How do we fill in the blanks? 

ELEMENT
FIELD NAME
DESCRIPTION
MAX LENGTH
OSM

Organisation
Organisation Name

60
n/a

Department Name

60
n/a

Premises
Sub Building Name

30

Building Name

50
addr:housename

Building Number

4
addr:housenumber

Thoroughfare
Dependent Thoroughfare Name

60

Dependent Thoroughfare Descriptor

20

Thoroughfare Name
Street
60
addr:street

Thoroughfare Descriptor

20

Locality
Double Dependent Locality
Small villages
35

Dependent Locality

35

Post town

30
addr:city

Postcode
Postcode

7
addr:postcode

PO Box
PO Box

6

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcode_Address_File 

On 2019-01-27 21:40, Andrzej wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> When working on post codes in East Anglia I realised the current address 
> tagging scheme is insufficient for even fairly basic scenarios. I have 
> already discussed the issues with some of the most experienced mappers and 
> like to bring these issues to your attention. Robert has summarised his ideas 
> in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping
> 
> The bottom line is, I would like to be tag commonly used addresses without 
> losing information and without resorting to addr:full. 
> 
> Issues:
> 1. Post towns (most pressing one because there is a lot of confusion around 
> it). The UK is fairly unique in that not every town is a post town. This 
> makes it impossible to tag e.g. Station Road, Histon, Cambridge CB24 9LF. 
> Wiki recommends addr:city to be used for tagging post towns (Cambridge) but 
> then how do we tag Histon? 
> - Robert recommends sticking to the current meaning of addr:city and using 
> addr:town and addr:village for town and village names, which, although not in 
> wiki, are already being used in the UK. I like this solution because it is 
> very explicit in what each addr: key means and it doesn't redefine addr:city. 
> - SK53 prefers using addr:city for everything (towns, even villages) and 
> either not tagging post towns (they can be seen as a an internal detail of a 
> closed Royal Mail database) or using a new tag for it, like addr:post_town. 
> It is a simple solution, results in Histon being called Histon and not 
> Cambridge (without introducing new tags for town and village names) and is 
> commonly used. It is also a bit confusing (what exactly is a city?) and I 
> think we we should at least support tagging post towns. 
> 
> Key questions:
> a) addr:city for post towns or towns and villages? 
> b) how to rag remaining information (respectively, towns and villages or post 
> towns,) 
> 
> 2. Tagging addresses within campuses, business parks etc. There is addr:place 
> but it is supposed to be used instead of addr:street. Again, Robert has a 
> fairly decent proposal for that using addr:place or addr:locality and 
> addr:parentstreet. Please comment. 
> 
> 2a. should buildings in campuses be tagged with addr:buildingnumber/name or 
> addr:unit? I would prefer buildingname/number (as they are often subdivided) 
> but these seem to be associated with addr:street. 
> 
> 3. Similar to (2) but for buildings. Tagging buildings that have e.g. a 
> single name but multiple house numbers? 
> 
> Best regards, 
> ndrw6
> 
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[Talk-GB] Tagging post towns and other addressing issues in the UK

[Andrzej]

Hi,

When working on post codes in East Anglia I realised the current address 
tagging scheme is insufficient for even fairly basic scenarios. I have already 
discussed the issues with some of the most experienced mappers and like to 
bring these issues to your attention. Robert has summarised his ideas in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping

The bottom line is, I would like to be tag commonly used addresses without 
losing information and without resorting to addr:full. 

Issues:
1. Post towns (most pressing one because there is a lot of confusion around 
it). The UK is fairly unique in that not every town is a post town. This makes 
it impossible to tag e.g. Station Road, Histon, Cambridge CB24 9LF. 
Wiki recommends addr:city to be used for tagging post towns (Cambridge) but 
then how do we tag Histon? 
- Robert recommends sticking to the current meaning of addr:city and using 
addr:town and addr:village for town and village names, which, although not in 
wiki, are already being used in the UK. I like this solution because it is very 
explicit in what each addr: key means and it doesn't redefine addr:city. 
- SK53 prefers using addr:city for everything (towns, even villages) and either 
not tagging post towns (they can be seen as a an internal detail of a closed 
Royal Mail database) or using a new tag for it, like addr:post_town. It is a 
simple solution, results in Histon being called Histon and not Cambridge 
(without introducing new tags for town and village names) and is commonly used. 
It is also a bit confusing (what exactly is a city?) and I think we we should 
at least support tagging post towns. 

Key questions:
a) addr:city for post towns or towns and villages? 
b) how to rag remaining information (respectively, towns and villages or post 
towns,) 

2. Tagging addresses within campuses, business parks etc. There is addr:place 
but it is supposed to be used instead of addr:street. Again, Robert has a 
fairly decent proposal for that using addr:place or addr:locality and 
addr:parentstreet. Please comment. 

2a. should buildings in campuses be tagged with addr:buildingnumber/name or 
addr:unit? I would prefer buildingname/number (as they are often subdivided) 
but these seem to be associated with addr:street. 

3. Similar to (2) but for buildings. Tagging buildings that have e.g. a single 
name but multiple house numbers? 

Best regards, 
ndrw6
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Re: [Talk-GB] Dropped or lowered kerbs

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Andy,

It somewhat depends on what you are trying to map.

The kerb=* tag on the wiki page you linked to is for when mapping a
crossing. As shown on the second example on the page. you would create a
way that runs perpendicular to the highway at the point where a footpath
(or cyclepath) crosses the road. Add a crossing tag at the point where the
footway (or cycleway) intersects the road. Then add a node on the footway
(or cycleway) at the kerb and add the appropriate tag (kerb=lowered,
kerb=flush).

The barrier=kerb tag in JOSM is when you want to map the kerbside. You draw
this parallel to the road and add barrier=kerb to the way to indicate that
this is the kerb. If you like, you can then add height=* to the way.

I would suggest doing the former and skipping the latter unless you are
intending to create a super detail map (e.g. when mapping roads as areas
rather than just centre lines).

Of course the issue here is that, even the former suggests that you are
mapping the pavements parallel to the way as footways. Quite often we don't
bother adding that level of detail. I guess in that case you could just add
the kerb=lowered tag to the highway=crossing node (assuming it is a lowered
kerb on both sides of the road).

Best regards,
*Rob*
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[Talk-GB] Dropped or lowered kerbs

[Andy Mabbett]

I've been reading the wiki page:

   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:kerb

and I'm no wiser on how to map a dropped (or "lowered") kerb.

I'm looking at a road which is mapped as a single way, without
separate pavements.

JOSM wants to add "barrier=kerb", but that would surely imply a
barrier /across/ the road?

Examples would be helpful, please.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Driving Test Centres

[Mike Baggaley]

You could also add government=transportation to office=government

Regards,
Mike



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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Driving Test Centres

[Brian Prangle]

You might want to add operator=DVSA. I tag them like Tony too

On Sat, 26 Jan 2019 at 23:04, Silent Spike  wrote:

> Thanks Tony, as the only reply here so far I've followed your approach.
>
> Could be valuable in future to develop a tagging scheme for these centres
> as they each do testing for different types of license, etc.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 9:47 AM Tony Shield 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Had same problem earlier. I gave a node (5490954973) within the
>> building=office outline
>>
>> office=government
>>
>> name=Chorley Driving Test Centre
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> TonyS999
>> On 25/01/2019 22:06, Silent Spike wrote:
>>
>> Searching the wiki I can't find anything that feels right for mapping
>> driving test centres.
>>
>> If anyone has mapped these in the past I'd be curious to know how you
>> tagged them (both practical and theory test centres).
>>
>> Also curious as to how they've been named (if at all) as the DVSA just
>> refers to them by where they are located.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
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[Talk-GB] weeklyOSM #444 2019-01-15-2019-01-21

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 444,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all things 
happening in the openstreetmap world:

http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/11389/

Enjoy!

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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